Grammar

[bigjoe]

It seems quite a few have come on these forums, just to correct someone's grammar.
Very odd! As I believe that is not what these forums where intended for.
Only to discuss general AMATUER astronomy. Cheers.:thumbsup:

[bloodhound31]

Amateur. :rofl:

[bigjoe]

You found it, but I deliberately made it easy for you.
GOOD ONE.We should do this more often. Actually have fun!

[naskies]

:rofl: http://www.hilariousgifs.com/dis-gon-b-gud/

(Joe, not laughing at you personally... internet forums in general notorious for being home to grammar Nazis (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/grammar-nazi).)



Actually, that was a spelling correction but this is a grammatical correction :P

[bigjoe]

Should that not be, "are in general".Tisk!:D

[bloodhound31]

You have a double space after the first comma in the first sentence and after the end of your third sentence. There should also be a space after the period after GOOD ONE.

:rolleyes:

[bloodhound31]

I think there should be a question mark there. :question:

[bigjoe]

A double space! Sounds like a mortal sin.
Cheers.

[bigjoe]

This is all good clean fun. I hope.
Time to sleep dear friends.

[Kunama]

I agree Joe, there seem to be many who will point out any anomalies in one's musings and although mostly said in jest, they can become tiresome at times.

..... oh, by the way, the correct plural for the word 'forum' is fora. Forum being a word of Latin origin also requires the use of the correct Latin plural.

Your use of the word 'As' at the start of the second sentence of the second paragraph is superfluous.


Seriously now, I tend to agree with your first statement but was not at all surprised to see all the following responses ......... good clean fun indeed.:rofl:
(beats the H out of the reflector vs refractor battles)

[FlashDrive]

:D ...fairy nuff ..... I mean ' fair enough ' ... that's better :lol:

Flash.....

[pmrid]

I agree that pedantry over obvious spelling, grammatical and similar errors can be a real PITA. But having said that, those mistakes are pretty common. I have traced several of mine to hand-held devices that insist upon anticipating what you are going to type and/or autocorrecting your efforts. Combine that with fingers that seem to be getting less dextrous with age and you have a recipe for repeat offending.

Others have no excuses. I once lived in a western Queensland town that boasted a weekly newspaper published every Wednesday and distributed by leaving a bundle on the bar at the local RSL. It was known as the "3 - minute silence ". That's how long it took to read cover-to-cover. As an exemplar of spelling and grammar, it was so good that the local school set it as a task for their primary school children. Kids had to spot as many errors as they could and report them the following day - and there was never any shortage of examples.

Peter

[alocky]

I agree that any contribution on these fora that is restricted to commentary on the typing skill or grammatical content adds no value. However, somebody who has written a response with some consideration to syntax, grammar and structure is also likely to have put more thought into the content. Such a response is also less likely to be misinterpreted.
In conclusion, although pedantry is not constructive, neither is laziness.
Cheers,
Andrew.

[naskies]

Right you are :rofl:

[bigjoe]

That is a good point, about some degree of grammar.

But, some of us suffer some degree of arthritis in the hands,

making it difficult to type, as I have, and on a small mobile phone,

as I have repeatedly stated I have been using.

And so I will have to cop it, just like many others here, untill my

home computer is fixed.

But still the grammar nazi's persist with impunity.

they would be better of on a professional literary forum,

where they did not have to correct other's typos, comma spacings

and so on.

Get a life. You know who you are!

[naskies]

The most eloquent "rant" on this topic I have heard is by Stephen Fry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY

Enjoy :D

[Steffen]

Only when referring to the public square in an ancient Roman city. The other meanings of the word "forum" take the plural "forums". According to the Oxford Dictionary of English, anyway ;)

Cheers
Steffen.

[bigjoe]

Brilliant Dave.This should be made mandatory watching by all iceinspacers.
Cheers buddy.:)

[asimov]

Can't really agree. I see a lot of mistakes that don't get commented on!:P

[Octane]

Steve,

Do you still have the link I posted ages ago -- the spelling/grammar police one? :D

H

[leon]

I think those that continuously correct others, especially about some minor spelling and/or punctuation should find some other form of entertainment, seeing they are so perfect.

Leon

[bigjoe]

Kunama Hi

I too grew tired of the refractor/reflector battles.

Indeed it was getting a bit boring, so I decided to start this post up.
It appears to myself though, that most of us need a proofreader.

One can actually buy the software to do this for you.

One can also copy and paste another's mistakes from, there, put it back on iis, and tell them all there mistakes.

Thus gaining an air of superiority

This must be very entertaining for some poor tragic souls

with nothing better to do with their day, ready to pounce on some

unsuspecting soul's typos etc.

Unemployed perhaps ? Who knows.

Pathetic ? YES

[Kunama]

I think this thread was a great idea Joe! A little light humour goes a long way!

The point of all this typing is to communicate and if it can be done using abbreviations, acronyms etc and still get one's meaning across then the essential criteria have been met.

Yes, the 'grammar-police' do need another hobby. I have no issue with things said in jest, but some people do get a bit too serious about things that don't matter, after all, we are mostly discussing our addiction to stargazing.
I doubt that any of us are in the running for a Nobel Prize for Literature.

"Last week I couldn't even spell 'illiterate' now I find I are one!
Come to my tutorials, I'll learn you english!

(Actually English is my second language, being born in Finland with the world's most difficult language to learn, I subsequently had to learn Swedish, Italian, German, Indonesian and English, no doubt grammar was the last thing on my mind)

[multiweb]

Oui. I only understand le inglese.

[bigjoe]

Well said Kunama!

Indeed. This is just about our to some, odd addiction, obssession even to stargazing . An amateur site.

If I wanted a proofreader, I'll ask and pay for it.

So what are some strange souls doing on this site, pretending

to be gurus, ready to ambush the unwary? For a comma spacing even.

Maybe they are just not good at much else, and so, take

their frustrations out here ?

Who knows !

[blink138]

sucks to your grammar! (though she does make nice scones!)
pat

[multiweb]

Whoaa.... relax... breath iinnn.... and out.... Lose the boldness and red font too. :lol:

[naskies]

Funny you say that... I published a number of scientific papers during my PhD in journals produced by big publishing houses (Elsevier, LWW, etc), and their proof readers would be complete grammar nazis.

"Fair enough", you may think, but the proof readers weren't scientifically trained (even at a basic level!) and would more often than not helpfully "correct" my wording to mean the opposite thing! Or, they may strictly adhere to capitalisation conventions that go against standardised nomenclature (e.g. IUPAC for chemical names).

The worst part is the embarrassment from colleagues pointing out my "mistakes" that were introduced by the production staff :lol:

[blink138]

and joe.............. it should be "their mistakes" not "there"
I will run and hide now ha ha take it easy mate after all this is the "general chat" forum!
pat

[troypiggo]

I think our eyes/brain typically forgive the odd typo here or there. There are some posts that I do find really hard to read. Commas thrown in everywhere and instead of periods, misuse or lack of use of capitals and so on. It breaks up the whole rhythm of reading when you're not sure where one sentence stops and the next begins.

[Paul Haese]

Everyone makes spelling and grammar mistakes from time to time. However, we ought as a forum related to precision and knowledge strive for some level of excellence. There is far too much laziness on the internet in regard to communication. It ought to be all of our goals to try to improve ourselves. So those whom are trying to identify a problem probably need to learn the subtle art of persuasion and those whom are being identified as having grammar and spelling issues ought to take note and do some learning (last bit to be vocalised with a southern American drawl).

Like John I see plenty of spelling mistakes and plenty of grammar mistakes. The ones of particular interest are There, Their and They're. ie over there, it is their home and They're (they are) the people I am talking about.

Also Were, Where and We're. ie We were going home. Where is your home? And; we're (we are) not all perfect.

One that I am commonly lazy about is Your and You're. Your telescope is nice. You're (you are) not listening to me. I also make mistakes with typos with you and your. I often forget to put the r on the end of a your when I am saying your.

Best of luck with trying to correct the correctors of grammar. They hate bad grammar as much as you hate people picking on others for bad grammar.;)

[alocky]

Sorry Paul - can't resist...
Whom - objective case,
Who - subjective case;
So shouldn't it be ' those who are trying to'?
:P
Andrew

[Paul Haese]

Yep.;)

[stephenb]

I will simply say that as a father of children with dyslexia and dyscalculia and knowing adults who went through their school years as "the dumb kid in the class" only to establish they also suffer from dyslexia, the issue is more wide spread than most in the community could even imagine.

There is often a reason for issues you see in grammar, but never assume that the person is lazy or that the poster never put any thought or effort into their post, in fact quite the opposite can be true - they often have put more effort in that most other, in both trying to articulate their thoughts as well as putting those thoughts in text as they overcome their issue.

[mozzie]

grammer and spelling !!!!!!!!HHaa

my 7 year old has his english homework and i don't understand it,i get totally confused..the wife helps him :)
and for spelling i just type it as best as i can :lol::lol:

those who make a big deal of it need to get a life :D:D

[blink138]

ha ha how ironic peter as the only mistake you made was misspelling "grammar".......... I like a larf!
pat

[Kunama]

Very bad Gran'ma ...............

[UniPol]

"Syntax", now that's an all important word missing from this thread :question:

[Kunama]

"Sin Tax"

Definition of 'Sin Tax'.

A state-sponsored tax that is added to products or services that are seen as vices, such as alcohol, tobacco and gambling.

[UniPol]

Guilty on all three counts in my younger days sir.

[rat156]

Hi All,

Well, looks like I'm the pathetic loser with nothing to do but criticise other's grammar or spelling.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=999434&postcount=73

I would say in my defence that I was trying to get across to bigjoe that I found his posts difficult to read, and therefore anything he may have been trying to get across was, perhaps, lost in translation. I was not trying to be pedantic, but the irony of the spelling error in the reason stated for editing the post, along with the grammatical errors that remained in the post made me wonder what bigjoe had actually done. I presume the post before editing was unintelligible, as afterwards it was barely so.

Anyway, what's wrong with learning to use tools correctly? I'm sure that if you get a fancy new piece of astronomical equipment, you don't just bung it together in a haphazard fashion. I bet you will learn how to use it correctly. The English language is just another tool, this one helping you communicate your thoughts to others. If you learn to use it correctly then you'll be misunderstood less, surely that's a good thing.

Cheers
Stuart

[stephenb]

Whilst I not suggesting the bigjoe suffers any literacy issues, perhaps a little tolerance towards others is in order (if you cared to read my previous post in this thread?) and then taking the moral high ground when you do not know the personal circumstances of others, their level of education, literacy skills, cultural background etc., will not feel as important.

To many the English language is not just "another tool" to learn "correctly" like some piece of telescope equipment, as you so eloquently put. It can seem like an insurmountable hurdle that holds many back. And often when people like you put them out in such a public way, that can have a negative effect on the individual. Why not send them a polite PM?

There are far worse heinous crimes in this world that worrying about someone's grammar in a pokey little hobby forum.

[Steffen]

This being an Internet forum maybe "Postel's Law", as formulated in RFC 760 ("Internet Protocol"), should be applied to the reading and writing of forum posts:



Cheers
Steffen.

[Don Pensack]

I know this may come as a surprise to some, but grammar and spelling errors cause some readers' attentions to stop at the point of error, and cause wandering attention to the points made thereafter.

If the reader is a poor speller or commonly makes grammar errors, this same concentration of attention will not occur in reverse. Posts without obvious errors don't cause the same "sticking" at the error to occur.

If you are used to editing your own posts, and catching those errors before the posting takes place, you also wonder why others don't do the same.

The most egregious errors are the all-too-common "there/their/they're" error, the "your/you're" error, the "its/it's" error, and the "me/myself/I" error.

Spelling errors, such as aperature for aperture, or "adverted vision" for "averted vision" can be forgiven. Words that aren't common in everyday speech can be difficult to remember (Is pusillanimous spelled with one "l" or two?). I wouldn't think of correcting the spelling unless the word is misspelled several times in the same paragraph, and even then, usually by posting a reply with the word correctly spelled.

A little forgiveness can go a long way. After all, many people are immigrants whose [not who's] native languages were not English.

[multiweb]

Actually in my experience more 'locals' have problems with grammar than people (scholars) whose mother tongue is not English and learned it at a later stage in life. Mine is functional at best but I try to keep the grammar under wrap. It can be an issue at times when I think in French then translate grammatical structures back into English then things get shuffled a little. The only irritating thing which is really very easy to fix is basic capitalisation, punctuation and what I call the basics: than, then, there, they're, their, were, where, we're, your, you're, does, dose. That's laziness IMHO (<- like this one :P). I do a lot of spelling mistakes as typos but if I'm not sure of a new word I type or I read in a post I'll do a 'what is <word>' in Google and check it quickly before posting.

[rat156]

To be honest, if you were going to be a spelling and grammar Nazi on IIS, then it would be a full time job.

The OP hasn't claimed some sort of difficulty with the language (like an illness or English being a second language), he (assuming Joe is, in fact, a man) seems to have OK computing skills as he has discovered how to use bold and red lettering. He has also seen fit to make snide remarks about me in another thread. Merely because he got something (terribly) wrong and either doesn't like it being pointed out or his ego can't take criticism. I say again, that the only reason for my post was the fact that the post had been edited for grammatical errors, but still contained many. I then gave some pointers for making post more legible.

Cheers
Stuart

[multiweb]

Anybody who can do astro imaging and retain any sanity has the brain capacity and patience to correctly spell. :lol:

[Barrykgerdes]

Seems to me that this thread has degenerated to a slanging match and will get closed

Before this happens it is not the grammar that is the problem it is the connotation of the spelling that is the problem

grammer: short for programmer
Gramma: a type of pumpkin
grammar: how we present our language
gra'mma: Gramp's offsider who is responsible for you all being here

Barry

[Kunama]

Wye due thees threds degenerete sew kwikly intwo personul clashhes?
Letz awl joust trie two gedalong wid itch udder!

Two meny threds r clozed dew to personnel conflictz.

Sumtimes I whish they're waz know "General Chat" sexion at awl.

[h0ughy]

did you get caught in the last snow flurry? :question::P

[multiweb]

That's the german shepherd typing. :P

[Kunama]

I'm innocent !!! Until proved guilty anyway !

[Becstar]

I can be a bit of a grammar nazi but I try and keep a firm lid on it because I know it can irritate people.

Butt it reelly irritates mee wen peeple type a 20000 werd sentense with know punktewayshun and multypool speling erors and thay go on and on and on and on and the paragraf disolvs intwo a senceless mudle of noncense that yoo cant desifer and it just maykes me shayke mai hed in exaspurayshun at theyre lak of respekt four the engerlish langwage.

[Kunama]

I don't think you are taking this 'Sirius'ly Rebecca!

[stephenb]

All your points are valid and I take them on board, but as I say again, if someone has a problem with grammar, spelling etc. why not send a PM and gently remind them? There may be an underlying issue.

It is the norm here in IIS to bring it to their attention very publicly and often start a new thread about Grammar, then another thread, then another.... It's a common theme.

Like most who post here, the is a lot of assumptions about individuals that you have never met (by 'you' I'm referring generally, not specifically yourself)

Enough said.

[bigjoe]

Wonderful Kunama!

I've easily understood everything you have said.

CASE CLOSED!!!!

Ps: NOW LETS ALL WORK ON GETTING ALL OUR NOSES BACK IN JOINT!"
:)

[FlashDrive]

:lol::lol::lol:



:lol::lol::lol:

Yoo pear betta ceep it twogetter kause I kant strop larfing :D:P

Flash....:D

[multiweb]

:lol: Great expression.
"no... I didn't chew that steering wheel cover..."

[Ric]

I think we all need a month of clear skies under the stars. :D

[FlashDrive]

;)

Flash...

[Kunama]

I skied 20 klms in a blizzard yesterday ..... what's your excuse Ric ?????

[Ric]

I cant sky (ski) :P

I meant we all need a month of clear sky and get a much needed astronomy fix. ;) :thumbsup:

Cheers :)

[bloodhound31]

Iym wiv ewe Ric.

[shenanigans000]

I find the preceding all very interesting, but why is there no discussion on the merits (or otherwise) of the Oxford Comma?

I think it's so unfair that this humble yet important grammatical icon is relegated to obscurity in these web forums.

In fact I'm going to start an entire thread dedicated to the Oxford Comma. It will be flooded with responses!

And then you'll all see just how important and indispensable it is!

So there. :screwy:

[avandonk]

Can anyone explain to me the dangling participle?

Bert

[taminga16]

Grammar, like Grampa only different.
Greg.

[UniPol]

Grammar, Schmammar, whatever :shrug:

[RickS]

Flexing dramatically, Avandonk captured a distorted image with his RH200.

[OICURMT]

Bread? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pita)

[Don Pensack]

Such a post is intriguing. As a linguistics student, many years ago at the university, the evolution of language was, and has remained, fascinating to me.
The past participle of "prove" used to be "proven". In fact, the past participle of many words had somewhat irregular constructions, e.g. "hung" for the verb "to hang". I even remember "boughten" as the past participle of "to buy" because so many of my early teachers received their educations prior to WWI (it became "bought" about WWII).
The latter half of the 20th century and certainly the first portion of the 21st has seen the "-ed" ending replacing all the older forms. "Proven" has become "proved", and "hung" has become "hanged".
Not all irregular past participles have become simplified. We still use "written" for a letter, and not "writed".
But linguistics people have noticed a very strong trend. One of the pleasures of reading posts on a forum frequented by such a large group is seeing the language evolve.

As for misspellings, who would notice "lite" or "nite"?;)

[Kunama]

Then again Don, you are analyzing the musings of a five year old German Shepherd.

I must agree with you Don about the evolution of the language being an interesting phenomenon. In 2004 I went back to Finland after an absence of three decades and found that the language had changed so much that I struggled to speak with anyone under the age of about 40 years. This was particularly evident in the main cities, it was only when I toured rural areas with a much older population that my familiar first language resurfaced.

The language of Helsinki and other now very cosmopolitan cities was not a pure language that finnish once was, it was a conglomeration of finnish, english, swedish, german, italian and numerous others. With many words 'finnish'ized by the customary suffixes.

[Wavytone]

It merely reveals the majority never learnt grammar properly. It's not surprising - in Australia at least, English grammar was taught until some time in the early 1970's when for some reason the education department decided it was all too tedious and dropped it from the curriculum.

I was in the last year formally taught grammar; my sister (2years behind me) and quite a few friends never learned any formal grammar unless they studied a second language such as French or German, in which case (surprise surprise) grammar features very strongly for a few years and you learn how English grammar works.

I think it's disgraceful that the only way to learn English grammar properly is to learn another language. It bloody well should be taught in English classes - it isn't hard.

As for whether it matters - it does. I happen to belong to a rather larger and much older web forum where a some social experiments were conducted by the owner of the forum, notably a period where moderation was rather light and "anything goes" was encouraged, on the basis that some were quite creative in their misuse of the language, and a few were quite witty. The majority unfortunately were simply awful. The site degenerated quickly into ugliness, personal attacks and it reached the point of legal threats.

Finally the owner had little choice if the site was to survive - members were told to shape up or leave, on the basis that membership of the forum was a privilege, not a right. Posts with poor grammar or worse are simply deleted quickly and repeat offenders are sin-binned or banned quickly. That forum is now the largest in Australia. Several other large forums now have zero tolerance.

[Larryp]

I agree, Wavy. I finished high school in 1962, and English grammar was drummed into us all through school. Our language, whatever nationality, is the means by which we communicate and we all should be taught its correct use.
I find it irritating when I read things that have grammatical errors and spelling errors.

[multiweb]

I remember in secondary school having to learn English, German and Latin. In primary if we were naughty we were in detention after class and we all had a little red book called 'le Bescherelle' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bescherelle). This damn thing even made in to Wikipedia. It's the grammar/conjugation bible and god knows we have s||t loads of verbs groups, tenses and declination in French grammar. So the naughty ones got very good at conjugation. ;) Needless to say English was a breath of fresh air to learn. :lol:

[Steffen]

What's the forum? Do tell.

Cheers
Steffen.

[naskies]

I tend to be in favour of the Oxford comma for the following reason... :lol:

http://aeferg.tumblr.com/post/10290286196/grammar-is-important-kids-credit-for-original

[Octane]

+1 for Oxford comma.

H

[DJDD]

+ and -1 to the oxford comma

sometimes useful and sometimes not
sometimes removes ambiguity and sometimes does not

grammar changes over time or is meaningful in Latin but not English, and so on.

[naskies]

Someone forwarded me this entertaining link today. Test your grammar discrimination skills under pressure ;)

http://toys.usvsth3m.com/write/

[PRejto]

Don,

I suppose your tolerance for language "evolution" originates from your academic interests. I find myself somewhat intolerant and have been questioning the reason for such feelings. One trend (just as an example) I notice in Australia is the seeming inability to use the word "are" instead of "is" when the noun is plural. Such as: "There is a lot of people at the park today." Why do I want to scream when I hear this? Is this the evolutionary fate of our language? Will "are" vanish from our vocabulary? My children speak this way at school and their teachers do not correct them. I want to scream! Another favorite (perhaps British in origin?) is the "confusion" over the word "have" and "has," as in "Qantas have fired all their pilots today." While Quantas may be a company composed of many people, the word "Qantas" itself is a singular noun. This usage seems to be rampant in Australia but not in America. I've asked older Australians about this and many agree that it is singular (but not all!), but the younger generation seems oblivious. Why do I care? I think it's because, as has been stated by a few earlier in this thread, we have a desire to be understood clearly, and in turn desire to understand without ambiguity what another person is communicating.
Speaking only for myself, if I read a post filled with errors in writing I usually turn off to the content, and I lose much of my desire to communicate back. Personally, I wouldn't correct a person's grammar - especially in public. I might do so with a close friend in a joking way, but even that can be hazardous! It seems unnecessary to put anyone down in a public forum. One can simply choose not to participate.

Peter

[Don Pensack]

We all have "pet peeves", yet the language continues to change. In the 18th century, if I recall correctly, the verbs "to teach" and "to learn" reversed meanings. It wasn't uncommon in isolated districts in the US to hear "I'll learn you!" when someone was going to punish you for doing something wrong.
My pet peeve is the "All that glitters is not gold" error. It is incorrect, because gold does glitter. The speaker meant to say, "Not all that glitters is gold". I saw it yesterday in a beer commercial, "All beers aren't created equal." Ironically, the writer of that sentence has no clue that what he was saying was that every bottle of his beer tastes different.

We grow up with a language of our time. We add new words as they become necessary, but we tend to "freeze" at a particular point in the language if we do not constantly associate with a much younger generation.

Some evolution is the persistence of errors, like the plural verb for the singular subject [the opposite is true: None and Each are both singular, yet are commonly followed by plural forms of the verb. You are more likely to hear "None are going" instead of the correct "None is going" or "Everyone has their problems" instead of the correct "Everyone has his problems.]

And some of the evolution is simplification (lite for light, nite for night, thru for through). And some is a gradual change over generations that is only detectable by those of us who've been around that long (my aforementioned "boughten" as the past participle of "to buy").

It matters only if the purpose of communication is not served--when the error becomes the focus of attention rather than the message. I admit to being guilty of this, especially in the all-too-common errors of there/their/they're or are/our or others we all could mention, like my most-despised error involving the word myself: "Who is going?" "Myself and Ted" !!!!

Why, that's just ignernt.

[Barrykgerdes]

Today's ninemsn article

Guard of honour for Aussie baseballer shot for no reason

Why did they shoot the guard of honour?

Barry

[Octane]

If that was a bold headline, it is quite common for them to be void of grammar/punctuation to save space.

Annoying, I know.

H