So many idiots on the road [Archive]

Kunama

02-07-2013, 09:56 PM

My current favourite, given that I live in the Snowy Mountains and travel to Canberra frequently, is the moronic parent that chooses to have their little "L" plate toting "Johnny" at the wheel of their 4X4 on the way to the snow.
This parent sits in the passenger seat totally oblivious to the fact that their little Johnny driving at 65kmh in a 100 zone has created a traffic snarl of about 50 cars behind him, all keen to get to the snow.

Not once have I seen one of the moving chicanes being directed by the 'responsible' adult to move over and let the 4 dozen cars by.

The frustration eventually becomes too much so we have the wonderful situation of an inexperienced driver at the wheel of a top heavy 4X4 being overtaken by several cars and many near head-on collisions are on the horizon.

Seriously 'Parents' what the H does little Johnny learn from this, and when one of those other cars gets too close, how will Johnny 'L' be at controlling the car in an emergency.

I am sick of having near head-on accidents due to this situation. Oh, I do know that Johnny is within the law doing what he does but then there is no point being in the right if you're under 2 metres of soil in a cemetery.

You would be horrified if you knew how many near head-ons I see each week during winter.

Manav

02-07-2013, 10:10 PM

I catch a bus and read or listen to music..I do get to watch frustrated drivers stuck on a early morning jam on M2 with facial expressions as if someone shot their pet dog. Meanwhile my daily bus buzzes past in the bus lane... Sorry I know this post doesn't help

Ric

03-07-2013, 12:56 AM

I agree Matt, that's usually the 3:00am callout on a freezing morning. Believe me there is nothing colder than a primed 38mm fire hose that's dripping down the side of you.

The worst part is the abuse you get for slowing down their trip and making them wait for 10 minutes while one lane has been closed.

03-07-2013, 04:11 AM

Pet peeve No,1
Drivers sitting on 85k in a 100k zone while the road is single lane, and then accelerate to 110k when in double lanes, dropping back to a nice steady 85-90k when the lanes merge to single again....Gotta love that..
Pet peeve No, 2
Truck drivers with heavy loads doing 80kmph in 50kph zones because they know exactly where the police are. The normal safe distance to be able to pull out in front of a truck can be unknown, even in a 50k zone.

Barrykgerdes

03-07-2013, 09:49 AM

I have had two recent rude and I believe illegal occurances on local roundabouts (Samantha Riley Drive). Samantha Riley drive has the two lane version where the side road is single. I was turning from the side road (turn signal idicated) and had cars on Samantha Riley drive enter the roundabout right in front of me and overtake while I was still tuning.

As far as I can make out the lane markings on the side road section do not prevent me making the turn into the left hand lane if I require to do so as I already have right of way on the round about and long wheel base buses which also make the same turn would not be able to make the turn into the right lane (also requiring to make the bus stop just past the round about).

Barry

LewisM

03-07-2013, 10:25 AM

Some of my recent funnies:

1/ Shopping centre carpark absolutely full because of recent EOFY Sales. So, I am in one of the lanes, with flicker on, waiting for one guy to come out. Another guy the other direction is going to take another one just up from me too, and we both indicate to each other which would be best. Problem solved. Then, a "chick" (for she was no lady), in a 4WD is driving past the lane. Sees there are going to be 2 cars moving out, so she reverses up and starts to indicate. I had already been waiting 5 minutes at this point of her arrival. I knew this was going to be fun! Thankfully, the first car moved out and the other guy moved in, which blocked her geting to mine, and finally the other car moved out so I could take the spot, so I started moving and took it. She was blaring the horn, giving me BOTH bird fingers, then called me a cock head, and that she had waited 10 minutes for that park. I calmly got out of the car, and politely told her that I had seen her back up and expect to take the position I had waited LONGER than her for and she could ask the guy 2 cars up who had waited - she did not need to, he interjected and told her she was WRONG. Well, did we both cop expletives! And she had young kids in the car!

2. This one is just pure arrogance/attitude. Another car park, quite full. Instead of parking in a lane, and not even having the brains or courtesy to park in 2 lanes (not that that is any courtesy), Mr. Nimrod decided he would park his car perpendicularly to the other cars - yes, he took up 3 car spaces. We were SORELY tempted to block him in, but knew if you have this sort of stupidity, arrogance, attitude and disrespect that he would have NIL concern hurting a car and / or person. So, a group of us stood around and waited. He and his "woman" (as he called her), came to the car, and duly said "Whatcas all lookin at?". One guy in the small crowd cirped up "Your inept and careless driving ********!". I was surprised said penile protuberance didn't get agitated - probably felt outnumbered, and he laid rubber.

3. Going out a clearly marked and arrowed ONE WAY exit. Guy in typical old Commodore comes IN the exit, and for no reason or provocation from me tells me to F Off and give me the finger, with the most scornful, aggressive facial expression I have ever seen. He probably couldn't read... I am sure he was missing more than a few synaptic connections.

Profiler

03-07-2013, 10:52 AM

This is an old joke

Q. What is the definition of a second?

A. The period of time from when the traffic light changes from red to green and the A@#$%&* behind you instantly beeps their horn:D

taminga16

03-07-2013, 11:44 AM

With all due respect, is there a possibility that you may not be negotiating the intersection correctly? and and that fellow motorists 'beep at' you to let you know that that is the case and not that they are are an 'Idiots on the road' at all.
Greg.
P.S. I am not a big 'Beeping fan' myself, I get grief enough for the type of car that I drive.

AstralTraveller

03-07-2013, 11:52 AM

What a lot of this says to me is that there are too many people out there under too much stress. Yes, ignorance and inconsideration come into it but the fineness of the hair trigger some people display indicates to me that they are constantly walking (and driving) around on the point of snapping. There must be something very wrong with their lives for them to be in this state. Life can't be any fun for them. Of course that doesn't make them right and the rest of us shouldn't have to cop their bile but it may help in understanding and dealing with them.

I've only ever once committed road rage and done something I am ashamed of (there was no accident, no one was hurt and compared to some cases it was pretty mild - just a few seconds of aggressive tail-gating) and that happen a couple of months before I suffered a total and debilitating nervous breakdown. Someone did something rude and stupid (used the shoulder to pass me on the left on a single lane road while I was doing the speed limit) and suddenly I couldn't control my anger. I've experienced plenty of bad behaviour before and since and I just keep on with what I'm doing, don't engage in tit for tat, and stay out of their way as they are obviously a danger on the road.

Having a large car with poor rear vision (a troopie) I find it easier and safer to reverse into car parking spaces. Since this is uncommon I normally come to a complete stop in front of the desired free spot, indicate, and then move forward so I can back in. Almost everyone understands and leaves me room. However around xmas and at other very busy times I don't even try. I've just had too many cases where someone has tried (and generally succeeded in) zipping in while I'm trying to back up.

04Stefan07

03-07-2013, 12:03 PM

I know how to turn into my street, I've only lived here all my life.

04Stefan07

03-07-2013, 12:18 PM

Shopping centres are the worst! At my local shops there are ramps to go up and down to each level. When going up it is a left turn ONLY.

Anyway I was driving to go down the ramp and some dude that was coming up turned right and he almost hit me. We both stopped the car and he was just telling me off like I was in the wrong.

People turn right a lot at the top of the ramp because they are "lazy" and "can't be bothered" going the proper way around the car park level.

I hope this is clear in that HE was in the wrong, not me.

Trucks in the right lane is also annoying especially when they are going slow, it's only common sense to not be in that fast lane! Another bad experience with trucks...I was merging onto a freeway and obviously everyone knows that if your car is in front or most of it is in front of the car next to you that you have priority to go first. Well this truck came out of no-where and totally cut me off and he made me go half in the emergency lane!

Oh and I thought of another one! When I was in Box Hill last week near that really bad intersection, the left lane was ending because of parked cars. The bus in front of me (not only that before he almost smashed into a car) merged into the right lane and the car let them through. That's fine, most people know about the common courtesy where you do one at a time. My lane almost ended and the guy next to me (I was clearly in front of him) kept speeding up staying behind the guy in front of him and he didn't let me through. Blinker on and all I went to merge and he just sped in front and cut me off!

On all of these occasions it has not been my fault and I know how to conduct myself around an intersection!

After my brother came back from Europe a few years ago he said how much better the drivers are over there than here in relation to respect, common sense and just generally how to drive.

Astro_Bot

03-07-2013, 12:30 PM

Actually, that's a common misconception.

If the lane ends and is so marked (with thick dashed lines, and usually there is also a sign such as "Left lane ends, Merge right) then you must give way to traffic in the continuing lane - you can only enter if it safe to do so, i.e. with enough space to safely enter. It's very similar to entering a road from a slip lane or a "Turn left anytime with care" lane - you can't impede traffic already in that lane. Of course, it's nice if someone "makes a space", but they don't have to.

The other type of lane merge is where two lanes come to one with no markings, i.e. the thin lane-dividing line simply stops. In that circumstance, the car that is ahead has right of way.

04Stefan07

03-07-2013, 12:46 PM

I think that explains why I got cut off by a truck and not a car because truck drivers are bigger and think they can do what they want. I never get that reaction from another car. In my case however he made me drive into the emergency lane though??

I can't stop on the road cause the other motorists should understand that the merging lane ends :lol:

Astro_Bot

03-07-2013, 01:00 PM

Bigger, yes, but mainly that means they take a lot longer to slow down and accelerate again afterwards .... and if he/she was in the left (continuing) lane, then he/she was actually doing the right thing by all the other drivers on the road. I spent some time driving on the British motorways and was impressed with their lane discipline and the degree of cooperation amongst truck drivers - too complex to describe here, but in essence everyone is focussed on keeping traffic flowing.

Well, I didn't see it, so I can only guess as to the length of the lane merge section and visibility etc, but technically he/she didn't make you do anything. If it were me, I wouldn't bank on a truck doing anything except continuing at a steady speed; I'd either floor it to get well in front, or slow down to pull in behind.

lazjen

03-07-2013, 01:01 PM

I think that 2 lane roundabouts are just completely stupid and asking for trouble. It's no surprise to me that one of the nearby 2 lane roundabouts is a recognized blackspot (I go out of my way to avoid it). Roundabouts have a fundamental system to them when they're single lane and they're relatively easy to understand and negotiate. Adding in the second lane increases the complexity and variability too far. These 2 lane roundabouts should be converted to traffic light systems. Although this can disrupt traffic more (if not "tuned" properly), it's far safer and less frustrating for all involved.

Astro_Bot

03-07-2013, 01:17 PM

When they're conventionally oriented - i.e. a four-way intersection at roughly 90 degrees to each other, then they work pretty well, or at least they did when the instructions were simple: left lane to turn left, right lane to turn right and either lane to go straight ahead, with the usual "give way to the right" rule, and since traffic goes clockwise, then traffic already in the roundabout is always coming from the right. Edit: I forgot the most important rule for making roundabouts work: never change lanes in a roundabout. It's a shame some people forget that one, because if the rules are strictly followed, roundabouts can be very efficient.

However, the road rules changed and the new description is more difficult to follow - they've tried to make it more generic - plus they have a habit of adding slip lanes and restrictive road markings to some roundabouts that keep you on your toes. One problem is that if you're entering from one side, you can't see restrictive markings from another. I can see how some people find the new descriptions and unconventional markings confusing.

astroron

03-07-2013, 02:01 PM

The problem with Roundabouts is that drivers have to think before entering it.
If the Roundabout is two lanes,the left hand lane on most occasion's a driver can stay in that lane till he/she wishes to exit,or must exit next left if lane markings say so.
Sometimes the right hand lane can exit left as well depending on the markings on the road.
The driver in the right hand lane wishing to exit left must observe where any vehicle in the left hand lane is, and act to avoid an accident by slowing down and letting that vehicle go on round or speeding up to execute the left turn safely.
If one cannot do it safely then they should go round the roundabout once again and exit safely next time.
Also the driver in the left hand lane should observe whats going on around him/her and act accordingly to avoid an accident.
The common sense rule that a vehicle already on the roundabout has right of way,so any vehicle entering the roundabout from the left must give right of way.
Simple:)
Cheers:thumbsup:

AstralTraveller

03-07-2013, 02:06 PM

In Ireland I came across a two lane roundabout where the lanes spiraled inwards and disappeared half way around. You had to change lanes in the roundabout (or wind up on the centre island). I never worked out what the rule was. Luckily the traffic was pretty light and I just made sure I didn't hit anyone.

mithrandir

03-07-2013, 02:20 PM

The rule changes were obviously to make it easier to fine people for getting it wrong.

When is a one lane roundabout small enough to make signalling on exit optional? All the ones near me are so small you don't have time to signal unless you slow almost to a stop. They had to make them all very low so the busses could negotiate them, and that means most vehicles can straight line them.

I want the "give way to traffic in the roundabout" rules enforced. The boys/girls in blue could make a fortune at the closest one to me if they booked all the people who force their way through. They are on the through road and the people on the side road don't matter. It was a T intersection before they put in the roundabout. I've been nearly hit several times at that one by people who were 10m or more from the roundabout when I entered it.

kinetic

03-07-2013, 04:16 PM

Spot on Ron :)
I make it a point to adjust my speed so that at no time when on
the roundabout am I ever side by side with someone, in fact
that applies to most of my driving.
The problem with that is, I usually back off so much that I end up back in my driveway.

Steve

taminga16

03-07-2013, 06:36 PM

And there my friend may well lie the problem! and please understand this is not a criticism, do a personal review and assess what it is that you are doing, or not doing for that matter. It just may give you a better insight as to why there are "So many idiots on the road". Greg.
The biggest contribution to workplace accidents is complacency you would be amazed at the number of files that I have dealt with that open with the statement, I have always done it like that!

Nikolas

03-07-2013, 07:09 PM

The problem we have here in Australia is that the authorities are so addicted to revenue it is against their bottom line to educate people on how to drive properly. In europe where we have greater speed limits and not an addiction to enforcement for revenue gains they also have a greater driver education system. Just look at how much training you have to do in Finland in order to get a license.
So long as the authorities pander to the lowest common denominator and not educate drivers properly then we will have all these idiots on the roads.
Even as I type they are adding more speedcameras on the monash between High street and warrigal road where there has never been a fatal car accident.

MattT

03-07-2013, 08:07 PM

Stefan you should try riding a bike in these interesting times. Been commuting on the treadly for years and it's got much worse in the last 5 years... it's amazing I'm still alive. Needless to say I hate cars specially those SUV's. That stands for Stupid Urban Vechial. Can't spell the V word either :lol:

telemarker

03-07-2013, 08:55 PM

Ah, road rage. Always a pleasure to behold.

One of my experiences of this. A car and a minivan directly behind me were having a bunfight about who had the right of way to merge into a single lane. Minivan lost, but then proceeded to drive down the wrong side of the road beside the other car for 1 km with horn blaring, lights flashing, gesticulations and swearing. Finally pulls in behind other car when the traffic comes to a standstill, he gets out and approaches the other car swearing, screaming "My daughter is in the car" amongst a tirade of abusive and foul language and hitting the drivers window with an aluminium flashlight. As we were going nowhere and thought the other driver could use some support, I jumped out and told the knob that his driving was the biggest danger to his daughter and it was about time he grew up. Well, that didn't go down well with the bogan or his mrs and they both rounded on me as well. Luckily, the traffic started to move again so jumped in the car and was away. The knob pulled up beside me for a spray, gave him a return volley before we parted ways. The other driver gave me a smile and a big thumbs up afterwards.

Some people really need to learn some semblance of self-control. I always thought it was extremely ironic that his behaviour was of far greater danger to his family than any danger during merging (the incident that sparked his brain snap and where he, according to the rules of the road, should have given way in the first place).

rat156

03-07-2013, 09:00 PM

I went and did a basic driver education course last year. It's the first time I've had professional instruction (not based on track driving) in about twenty years. I can only recommend that everyone do it about every ten years. Things have changed dramatically over the twenty years or so since I got my licence, consider the differences between the two cars, my first car, and the one I learnt to drive in was a Holden Gemini, the car I did the recent training in was an Alfa 156GTA.

Engine: 1600 inline 4 cylinder vs 3200 V6.
Power: Not much (probably about 70 BHP), vs 250 BHP.
Brakes: Front discs/rear drums vs Four pot Brembo fronts/disc rear with ABS.
Steering: rack and pinion, unassisted vs rack and pinion power assisted
Gears: 4 vs 6
Airbags: none vs 6
Traction control: none, with live rear axle vs TC and stability control

All this technology which helps you in emergency situations is pretty much useless if you don't know how to use it. For example we did a simulated emergency braking test from 60 kmh first, I failed to pull up in the allotted space on my first attempt, even though I could feel the ABS working. The instructor could tell by the way the car stopped that I was still "threshold braking" even though the ABS was working, which reduces the efficiency of the ABS. Next time he told me to press as hard as I could on the brakes, I did and the car stopped well short of the mark, probably 5 metres earlier than in the first test.

After every break we did another swerve and stop exercise and everytime I needed two goes at it to get the braking right. Since then I have had to exercise the reactions for real and I'm pleased to say that it worked, I now stamp very hard on the brake pedal in an emergency stop.

This is but one example of what us "old dogs" can learn.

As many of you know I have always advocated that more training is necessary before we let people have a licence, perhaps mandatory driver training before a licence renewal would do more to save lives than any speed camera? At least the revenue from the speed cameras, as they aren't going away, would be spent wisely if this was the case.

Cheers
Stuart

Nikolas

03-07-2013, 10:34 PM

SOOOOO dangerous this training.
Not all cars have all this technology and to do so in cars not fitted with this sort of technology is a disaster in the making.
Brake stomping is the worst thing one can do
Seriously I'd be asking for a refund and do a proper training course in all sorts of different cars abs and TC and non abs and nonTC

Peter Ward

03-07-2013, 10:54 PM

Amen to that.

I go though hell several times a year, with study and assessment to keep my ATPL (pilots) licence and my job (i.e. wizz around at 800-1000km/hr) ....yet, I can drive a car like a drongo if I wish,
and provided I don't speed, am unlikely to be reprimanded.

In Germany, autobahns carry 49% of all road traffic, yet account for only 3-4% of crash fatalities. Clearly Speed=death doesn't work there.

Here: speed = $$$ for governmental coffers, seems to be the maxim.

I digress.

It takes 6-12 months in Germany and some serious $ (OK Euro) to gain a license there. Don't even think of drinking and driving: if you crash you will go to jail and cop $A70,000 in legal expenses.

Our lot haven't got a clue IMHO

rat156

04-07-2013, 12:37 AM

Really Nik?

When was the last time you drove a car that doesn't have ABS at the very least? Today's younger driver's will never drive a car without ABS, stability and traction control, EBD, power steering and brakes. Unless they get into classic and historic cars, in which case they'll probably know how to drive them.

What is dangerous is having all this technology and not knowing what to do with it.

On ANY car with ABS, stomping on the brake pedal is the best, most efficient way of stopping, it also allows you to steer the car whilst braking.

The course was run by the John Bowe school, one of the best and most respected driving schools in the country. It was designed to give you experience in emergency situations in the car you drive everyday, rather than confusing you with instruction on cars you will never drive. There was one vehicle there without ABS, it was one of the aforementioned SUVs, owned by a Govt department, the students in that vehicle were taught threshold braking. It was a modern vehicle BTW, another oversight by the motoring authorities to allow that vehicle on the road without the mandatory ABS that most passenger vehicles have to have.

From the MUARC study in 2004:

As the theme of this thread is "most drivers (other than myself, of course) are muppets", this is solid advice.

Cheers
Stuart
(Bored in the Dustbowl, again)

Nikolas

04-07-2013, 01:06 AM

One car has abs the other does not.
Don't quote to me anything by the MUARC as their research is flawed and geared up to the lowest common denominator. Many years in motorcycle advocacy has paid proof to that, just do a search of MUARC and motorcycling cross referenced to the vic and net rider as a start if your MUARC re education.
Many cars still donor have abs and stomping on the brakes is not safe in all circumstances.
I won't bother entering a debate about this period.

rat156

04-07-2013, 02:05 AM

I wouldn't say that many cars don't have ABS, I would think that a vast majority of cars on the road today have ABS.

So, you're right and you won't listen to any argument?
Might I ask if you've actually attended a driver training course?
Probably useless as you are always right, so the instructor couldn't teach you anything anyway. I can only say, open your mind, listen and learn, maybe, just maybe, there is a better way to teach people to drive.

I might also point out that the technique you are advocating, commonly known as threshold braking, is a difficult thing to get right, in an emergency situation even more so. It is probably beyond the capability of most drivers on the road, however experienced they are. I drive competitively, in a car built in the 1970's (but designed in the 60's), it doesn't have ABS, I lock brakes often, in this situation it is required, but on the road in an emergency, I now know to rely on the electronics, it is much better at it than I am.

In the pinnacle of motorsport, Formula One, the only reason that they don't have ABS was to increase the reliance on the skill of the drivers, equip any modern racecar with ABS and the drivers will go faster. These are the very best drivers.

Cheers
Stuart

sophie

04-07-2013, 04:53 AM

Ha!

I took my daughter for her first driving lesson a month or so ago. It felt like a dodgem car ride that lasted for dog years. Had to grab the steering wheel twice and pull the hand brake once. I think I saw the face of Jesus at one point.

I am now paying for professional driving lessons.

And I apologize in advance to anyone who sees a tiny 18 year old in a 10 year old CRV next to or behind them in about six months when she is supposedly going to get her license.

ourkind

04-07-2013, 04:58 AM

:lol: I'd love to see an aerial shot of this intersection! There could be a wormhole in the centre eating up the road. Classic!

Peter Ward

04-07-2013, 11:37 AM

A good move.:thumbsup:

I instructed both of our kids for much of their driver training, an insisted they learn in a manual car. We looked at skid recovery, emergency braking basic car-mechanics, etc.

I then handed them over to a professional instructor who gave them a heads up on what the RTA test would be like. I was quite chuffed that they both passed first time.

That said, our current system is a joke. Potter around at 40-50km hr. Do a hill-start and reverse park, and you have a license.

Learners are not permitted to go over 80km/hr on freeways... I wonder what clown though this sheer lack of flow control was a "safe" idea.:screwy:

taminga16

04-07-2013, 11:45 AM

I am with Peter on the matter of the lack of ongoing training, but there are so many things that we can do ourselves, how many of us practice emergency stops, swerve control, wet road braking, peripheral vision exercises etc. Yes a lot of us have been driving for years but the enviroment changes daily.
Greg.

AstralTraveller

04-07-2013, 12:04 PM

It's been 10 years since I was there but I think this is it. Unfortunately the lane markings aren't visible on the sat image or on street view but the markings on he centre island are suggestive. And, no, I wasn't driving on the centre island.

sophie

04-07-2013, 12:29 PM

God, no. She'd tear a hole in spacetime if let loose in a manual. :lol:

Larryp

04-07-2013, 12:44 PM

I think all novice drivers should have to attend an advanced driving course, where they could be taught emergency breaking, skid control wet weather control, etc.
Many years ago when I obtained my CAMS general competition licence, these things were covered comprehensively in the first day of the 2 day course.
Looking at most of the fatal crashes involving young people, they are driving too fast with no idea how to regain control once they lose it.
As for auto versus manual for teaching, the great majority of cars sold now are automatic, and I guess most people will now spend their whole motoring lives driving an auto. My current car is not even available as a manual!:)

Herb

04-07-2013, 01:04 PM

[QUOTE=Astro_Bot;993447]When they're conventionally oriented - i.e. a four-way intersection at roughly 90 degrees to each other, then they work pretty well, or at least they did when the instructions were simple: left lane to turn left, right lane to turn right and either lane to go straight ahead, with the usual "give way to the right" rule, and since traffic goes clockwise, then traffic already in the roundabout is always coming from the right. Edit: I forgot the most important rule for making roundabouts work: never change lanes in a roundabout.

I'm having a very hard time trying to visualize this.

I'll ignore the obvious error regarding "right lane to turn right"; no vehicle on a roundabout turns right. They would be going the wrong way.

The rest of your explanation cannot be correct.

If a vehicle entering the roundabout from the right lane was unable to change or cross lanes, that vehicle would never be able to exit the roundabout, since all exits are on the left.

If a vehicle entering the roundabout from the left lane was compelled to leave the roundabout at the first exit, then vehicles in the right lane could leave the roundabout without changing/crossing lanes, however your scenario of a vehicle entering the roundabout from the left lane and going straight ahead (I'll presume you mean taking the second exit) would then be incorrect.

I can see how it could be one or the other, but not both.

Regards

Herb

Barrykgerdes

04-07-2013, 01:22 PM

[QUOTE=Herb;993771]

The big point of the roundabout is that it allows cars from minor roads to make Right turns safely.

Barry

Baddad

04-07-2013, 01:22 PM

Quite correct Peter W.:) A difference of 20 KPH to the flow of traffic is dangerous. Whether it be faster or slower, it causes confusion.

Yesterday I drew alongside a learner with L plates. Both at the front . Both of us about to negotiate a right turn. Double lanes going right. I was on the right (or inside lane.)
I anticipate and expect mistakes by others on the road. And just as well.

Light changed to green. I watched the learner move forward. I'm thinking, "Will she do it?" and yes she cut in front of me crossed into my lane as she was negotiating the corner. (I should say she cut the corner) The (Professional) instructor must have corrected her. As the car was jerked violently back toward the left lane.
Also the car stopped, straddling the line. I had enough clearance to then get past.

Checked the rear vision mirrors and there was a host of confusion. She had brought about twenty cars to a standstill on a green light.
I blame the "pro" instructor, who was a woman as well.

Another incident: License tester instructed the young driver to turn right at the approaching round-a-bout.
Driver cut hard right in the wrong direction against traffic. The shortest way to turn right at a round-a-bout instead of going around the island.

She was failed.

Cheers:)

Astro_Bot

04-07-2013, 01:35 PM

That's obvious, and the nub of the problem regarding the rest of your comments.

No error. Turn right at the intersection, going clockwise around the roundabout. (I even said traffic goes clockwise ... not that I had to ... or that any sane person would think otherwise).

What the? I was expanding on an opinion.

What the? I'm (obviously!) referring to changing lanes without exiting, which I have seen people do. For example, someone enters in left lane, changes to right (inner) lane in order to turn right (at intersection) i.e. to take 3rd exit. I've seen the reverse as well. It's a dangerous practice and one that I recall my driving instructor being abundently clear about all those years ago. I added it merely to be more complete, entirely for my own satisfaction. And why the hell am I wasting my time explaining this to you?

I didn't say that.

I said "either lane to go straight ahead", i.e. left lane can leave at 1st or 2nd exists ... and my opinion was referring to two-lane, 4-way, conventionally-oriented (roughly 90 degree) roundabouts, and the point I was making was that those type of roundabouts were easier to understand under the old explanations/rules, which is how they were commonly described in traffic handbooks many years ago.

Welcome to IceInSpace, you're going to fit right in! :screwy: :lol:

Note for everyone else: Yeah, I know, I obviously need a coffee break.

rat156

04-07-2013, 01:45 PM

Hey, Marty, that's a bit Abbotesque isn't it?

Cheers
Stuart
P.S. Now I've mentioned politics and cars in the same thread I expect a tirade of abuse and the thread to be locked. Damn, I've just mentioned a perceived bias in the application of the site TOCs, that's three. If I could just work in religion and race somehow...;);)

Nikolas

04-07-2013, 02:07 PM

Which part of motorcycle advocacy did you miss?
I do training in both riding and driving.
Like I said I will not enter into a debate over this.
Brake stomping is not the best thing to do in an emergency, particularly in a car with no abs.
Accident avoidance, anticipation, scanning, etc. ie ROAD AWARENESS not distractions.
Brake stomping is THE last resort and nothing more.
*shakes head*
Try riding a motorcycle and then see how much more road awareness you have around you.
You may have many assumptions about me that's up to you but I'll say this, rider driver training is something I do every 5 years or so.
We come not to just rely on the car's technology but on the total package.
did you cover the total package or the lowest common denominator?

AstralTraveller

04-07-2013, 02:30 PM

OK, I think this must be it and the situation is more complex than I remember. Lanes don't spiral in but on the south side a new lane appears on the inside. The roundabout is 2 lanes in places and 3 in others, just as some of the roads are 2 lanes and other 3. There is also a slip lane on the top left (nw) corner. If you work it out I think it is quite logical and it certainly worked in practice.

This reminds of an Irish joke.

To be consistent with Europe Ireland is going to switch to driving on the right hand side of the road. At midnight on the designated day all the cars will stop and move to the opposite side of the road, just as they did when Sweden changed sides. If that all goes smoothly a week later the trucks and buses will change too.

(There, that should get the thread locked ;))

Astro_Bot

04-07-2013, 02:58 PM

:lol: :D :lol:

There's a three-lane roundabout in Hobart with odd markings and some weirdness in traffic behaviour. The locals warned me about it when I was there some years ago. I'll see if I can find it on Google Maps ...

OK, enter these coordinates into Google Maps and press the search button, then zoom in where the green arrow is and switch to satellite photo:
-42.878001,147.330992
IIRC, there are traffic lights at points within the roundabout.

rat156

04-07-2013, 03:04 PM

None, I wasn't talking about motorcycles, I'll freely admit to knowing 2/5 of FA about motorbikes.

Which you have now done, or at least you have continued to express your opinion, I wouldn't say argue your point as you don't provide any proof, just an opinion.

Agreed, but like I've said a couple of times, a vast majority of cars on the road today HAVE got ABS. If you read what I initially wrote, I was saying that there has been a real shift in the technology available in newer cars, that this inclusion of technology means the driver can and should change the habits of a lifetime.

What I'm trying to get through to your shaking head is that IF you have ABS, braking heavily is the first AND last resort once in a dangerous situation. I mentioned nothing about awareness, though, of course, much of the discussion at the driver training course was about just this. Wanna talk about distractions, how's having to look at your speedo every couple of seconds to ensure that you haven't drifted 3 kmh over the speed limit to avoid being fined?

I'm dangerous enough in a car, I will donate my organs, but I don't want to hasten the act.

I have made no assumptions about you at all, other than perhaps a little stubbornness. I was not responsible for the DT course, as I said it was run by professionals, experienced professionals. They did both theory and practical exercises, worked out experience levels from the first couple of tests and then catered to each individual driver by altering the test conditions, the easiest way was to make you do the test at a faster speed, but they did set distances differently for each car and driver.

Cheers
Stuart

04-07-2013, 03:43 PM

Beat this then. The ultimate stupid roundabout. Swindon's magic roundabout!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPANKRHL9HU

Astro_Bot

04-07-2013, 03:59 PM

Ok, the roundabout at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris. Six lanes of traffic capacity and no markings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BliGIPQ_KHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smsmDrtA_OI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUj6fyNRFyE

Herb

04-07-2013, 04:00 PM

[QUOTE=Barrykgerdes;993779]

Quite right Barry, and the way it does this is by utilising left hand turns, despite what others on this forum would have you believe.

Regards

Herb

Kunama

04-07-2013, 04:26 PM

This is my favourite roundabout of all the countries I have been to.
Last time I was in Paris with my son we watched as one small car went around the roundabout 5 times in order to get to their exit.

When you enter this roundabout your motor vehicle insurance is suspended until you exit the roundabout.

The right of way is determined by how loud your horn is and how brazen you are about pushing your luck.
During our time in Paris we could not find a single car that did not have some accident damage.

Kunama

04-07-2013, 04:42 PM

Just regarding some of the terminology on braking methods with ABS used by Nikolas and Stuart ..................

"Stomping" on the brakes is never recommended .... however, what Stuart said was "press" on the pedal as hard as possible ..... this is absolutely the best way to bring an ABS equipped car to a stop.

Although most ABS systems will cope with the 'fluid shock' of someone smashing their foot onto the pedal, the far better way is to use a fast, hard and sustained "press" of the pedal as firmly as you can, the ABS electronics will modulate the fluid pressure to release the wheel should the ABS sensor indicate that the wheel has locked.

Without ABS the driver has to do this modulation to allow the brake to release enough to prevent locking up. Without ABS it is even more important to use a pressing action rather than hitting the pedal too sharply.

+1 for the advanced training ..... I think that all learners should learn to drive in manual transmission vehicles, they should be taught proper skid control, emergency braking and avoidance and defensive driving tactics.

But then I also think that there ought to be a mandatory course for anyone wanting to tow anything with their vehicle, anyone driving at less than 90% of the posted speed limit on dry roads should have to pull over regularly to allow other traffic through, speed limits should be raised on highways to reduce the fatigue factor of long drives at a sleep inducing 95kmh behind some Victorian caravan owner going to Queensland for the winter ...............

Oh and NSW Learner driver's should be allowed to drive at the posted 100 on highways. It would be safer for everyone. (If the learner is so inexperienced that they are not able to do this safely the responsible adult should be behind the wheel instead)

Herb

04-07-2013, 05:48 PM

[QUOTE=Astro_Bot;993784]

"That's obvious, and the nub of the problem regarding the rest of your comments."

Now, now, no need to be rude.

"No error. Turn right at the intersection, going clockwise around the roundabout. (I even said traffic goes clockwise ... not that I had to ... or that any sane person would think otherwise)."

This is what you previously wrote;
"left lane to turn left, right lane to turn right and either lane to go straight ahead..."

All vehicles enter and exit a roundabout on the left, there are no right turns. Repeat after me, NO RIGHT TURNS.

The rest of your explanation cannot be correct.
"What the? I was expanding on an opinion."

Ok, my bad, I should have said your opinion is incorrect.

"What the? I'm (obviously!) referring to changing lanes without exiting"

This is what you wrote;
"Edit: I forgot the most important rule for making roundabouts work: never change lanes in a roundabout."

Nothing (obviously!) there regarding exiting a roundabout.

"For example, someone enters in left lane, changes to right (inner) lane in order to turn right (at intersection) i.e. to take 3rd exit. I've seen the reverse as well. It's a dangerous practice and one that I recall my driving instructor being abundently clear about all those years ago. I added it merely to be more complete, entirely for my own satisfaction. And why the hell am I wasting my time explaining this to you?"

Well, you're not explaining anything, really. You've inserted entirely pointless drivel that has nothing to do with what you or I said said previously. And in consideration of your feelings, I'll treat that as a rhetorical question.

Anyway, my final point;

If a vehicle entering the roundabout from the left lane was compelled to leave the roundabout at the first exit
"I didn't say that."

No, I did. Try and keep up. I used this as an example of why your original post was incorrect.

"..........and the point I was making was that those type of roundabouts were easier to understand under the old explanations/rules"

But obviously not by you.

"Welcome to IceInSpace, you're going to fit right in!"

I doubt it. I can't even imagine being as rude, insulting and defensive as you.

"Note for everyone else: Yeah, I know, I obviously need a coffee break."

No, you need a Bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down.

With kind regards

Herb

LewisM

04-07-2013, 05:54 PM

Try Moscow.

They just SHOVE their way around - survival of the fittest. It was a white knuckle experience EVERY time I went there, but I did learn how to city drive well! I still do it in Brisbane :)

Horns are for wimps in Moscow - road rule is determined by how far and aggressively you change lanes etc.

Astro_Bot

04-07-2013, 06:02 PM

Quoted for posterity.

04Stefan07

04-07-2013, 06:05 PM

Woah that is pretty bad!

LewisM

04-07-2013, 06:30 PM

How do we ALWAYS manage to convolute a thread here?

Larryp

04-07-2013, 07:02 PM

Try Shanghai, Lewis! They don't even stop for pedestrian crossings

Kunama

04-07-2013, 07:04 PM

Helsinki is the same, pedestrian crossings are there but nobody stops to let you cross.

Kunama

04-07-2013, 07:23 PM

Agree with you 100% Peter,
This is exactly how my kids learned to drive, first countless hours with me teaching defensive driving skills, merging, emergency stopping in wet and dry conditions, skid control etc, then off to the driving school for lessons in what the Testing officer would look for etc.

My 2 kids have been driving now for over 8 years and have never been pulled over by the police for anything other than a RBT stop.
My son learned to drive in my 340bhp M3 so knows a little about power and handling but thankfully has the right mindset when behind the wheel.