Polar Alignment PMX and TPoint

[roughy]

After having to dismantle and reassemble my gear in the observatory, I seem to be having some considerable difficulty re establishing polar alignment. The necessary basic settings are correct - level, gps coords, time (thanks to assistance to another thread on this forum) etc.

However the TPoint polar alignment report is sending me all over the place with some very large suggestions (turn the right knob 9 full turns etc). I'm fairly confident that my physical/mechanical alignment is reasonable.

A user on the SB forum suggested that the instructions for which knob to turn are reversed for the southern hemisphere, i.e. the left knob is left facing north or the right knob facing south behind the mount. If this is in any literature I have missed it entirely.

Is someone able to clarify this point?

Cheers

Mark

[Mighty_oz]

I think in there wisdom SB changed it to suit N hemi people, u have to reverse what it says for S hemi, but i'm using a early version of the skyx. Also how many t-points are u doing ? The smaller the number the greater the pendulum effect i've found. I now do 50 points to get close to PA, other wise its a 150+ one to get it close to spot on.

[pvelez]

Mark

I had the same question a few months back. The other issue I found with the SB manual is that it doesn't indicated which side of the mount you need to be facing ie on the counterweight side or the control panel side.

I would do a 25 point run and shift it half the direction indicated. If it increased the error then I'd switch it the other way.

Trial and error is time consuming but I found it the best way. Remember also to apply the Supermodel before checking the PA - I found the recommendations for shifting the mount differed depending on whether or not I applied the Supermodel

Pete

[roughy]

Thanks Pete and Marcus.

It seems to begin to make sense, to "swap hands". TPoint has been advising to make larger corrections each time, suggesting I was heading in the wrong direction.

Makes me wonder why I thought I had good alignment when I first set the PMX up late last year.

Cheers

Mark

[PRejto]

Mark,
You probably did have good alignment last year because the T-Point instructions were simple to follow and couldn't be misunderstood. Now they are confusing! Take my word for it, face North and make your corrections. I just did this exercise recently and that is what worked for me!
Peter

[Logieberra]

Peter, saw your SB post on this. They gotta update the code for us Southies. Would be a shame to destroy darn good PA when trying to reach PA perfection, by following Tpoint and spinning the wrong knob.

Thanks. I'll face Nth for now :)

[gregbradley]

You do need to click on southern hemisphere in the TCS area of the Sky X.
Then follow the instructions.

I don't see how the directions can be misunderstood, they give you compass directions ie turn the mount 3 ticks to the west or
similar. That does not require facing it one way or the other as long as you know your compass directions.

Greg.

[PRejto]

Greg,

Don't know if you have done this recently but the latest builds of TSX do not give directions like that anymore. There are no East or West directions, just directions such as loosen the right knob and tighten the left. That means you have two choices....either facing South (incorrect) or facing North (correct).

Peter

[Logieberra]

Greg, what build are you running?

[gregbradley]

Don't know if you have done this recently but the latest builds of TSX do not give directions like that anymore. There are no East or West directions, just directions such as loosen the right knob and tighten the left. That means you have two choices....either facing South (incorrect) or facing North (correct).

Peter[/QUOTE]

Oh OK, sorry, my error.
I thought they gave directions in compass directions.
In which case its vital the southern hemisphere is checked in the TCS part of The Sky X. Unless its become bugged with later editions.

The Southern Hemisphere user is sometimes overlooked!

Greg.

[graham.hobart]

Just to clarify for my peace of mind, make sure the southern hemisphere option is chosen in Bisque TCS, then with mount and me facing South (or in what ever park position) so my left hand is on left side of mount and right hand is west.??

OK Im confused- I am fairly confident I got better PA when I adjusted following the turn the knob three tics etc, but I was facing south - me looking over the mount from the control panel side towards the SCP. Am I in error?
I have Southern Hemisphere set up on Bisque definetely.
ARrrgh!!!
The PA report states on it - For the Southern Hemisphere turn right knob 3.5 clicks etc"
Are you all saying face North (i.e with OTA in a normal SCP facing position (I know it doesn't apply as PMX starts from home in the NE) so if this was a normal EQ mount I would be facing North with the CW directly in front of me and the control panel on the other side?
so you would theoretically reach around the CW's to adjust azimuth etc. So even when you adjust for Southern hemisphere it assumes you are looking North and making adjustments with your right hand Eastwards and your left hand westwards?
Help!!!!!
Graz

[PRejto]

Check out tghis post from Rat156:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=102979&page=2

He states that you face North....

Peter

[rat156]

Or reverse the directions...

This was a complete mistake by the SB guys, West is West, doesn't matter which hemisphere you're in. We should petition them to change this back ASAP. I don't want left or right knobs, even if they reverse them for SH users, because that way they would have to remember to check this every time the play with the code.

If you don't know what direction (roughly) West is, you're going to struggle with a mount like the PMX.

Cheers
Stuart

[graham.hobart]

I'm sorry but this has not cleared this up for me.
And I do know which is West and East.
Either you face towards the North and follow the directions or you face towards the South (from behind the control box) and reverse the left and right directions?
Even if the report (in the latest build) is saying "PA report for Southern Hemisphere?"

[rat156]

Yes, that's correct.

If I face North, I'm facing away from the mount, so that makes it impossible to make the adjustments. It depends on where you are situated WRT the mount, I sit on the North side, if you sit on the South side of the mount, then you just reach around the mount to make the adjustments as suggested by the software.

Cheers
Stuart

[graham.hobart]

Cool!
So I also sit on the South Side but have been adjusting from the North side as is easier to use knobs- so I sit behind mount control panel and face South but reverse the report left and right directions?
Sorry for being a bit slow on this but this is a new mount to me and a steep learning curve.
Graz:thanx:

[roughy]

Can assure you Stuart IO know west from east. However when an instruction says turn the left knob, i assume it means left not right.

[rat156]

Hi Mark,

Didn't mean to insinuate that you don't know East from West, the you in my post was generic.

But left and right are reversed if the mount is pointing north vs south. If you consider how the mount would be setup in the northern hemisphere, pointing at the NCP the mount is rotated 180 degrees from that position in the SH. When you do this the left hand knob becomes the right hand knob and vice-versa. Even though the west and east knobs are also reversed in the above situation, the azimuth rotation in the report give a deviation from true south in degrees east or west, so you have to adjust the other way, it's all in the way the software is written. IMHO the change to left and right has attempted to make the adjustment simpler, but has, in fact, made the adjustment more difficult because it is dependant on the position of the person making the adjustment. Whereas once east and west are established they are observer independent.

Cheers
Stuart

[roughy]

Hi Stuart
Just realised you wrote roughly, not roughy. Apologies.
Yep understand the issue now. In hindsight one thinks you should be able to figure it out for oneself if the corrections are getting larger and larger in the same direction. But a couple of decades of self and mount orientation facing the SCP is a strong habit to push a bit of lateral thinking through.
Cheers
Mark

[PRejto]

Now to thoroughly confuse everyone, including me, Daniel Bisque has just put up a post saying right/left is the same regardless of hemisphere.

I have responded that several of us in the SH beg to differ; it may be SB's intent that it be the same, but experience is proving otherwise. I know absolutely that I had to reverse the left right thing to get an result.

May I suggest that others also report this to Daniel on this thread:

http://www.bisque.com/sc/forums/t/18908.aspx

Thanks!
Peter

[graham.hobart]

There is a post regarding Southern Hem PA with a copy of the report - it states both move azimuth West and loosen right knob/ tighten left knob etc so I assume it really depends on whether your mount is set up as in Northern Hemisphere or Southern Hemisphere GEM. Either way it does state the cardinal direction to go in so that makes it easier.
Sorry- post is on the Bisque site -can't attach it as work computer.

[roughy]

I have also responded to Daniels post. Refer below:

"Hi Daniel

I must respectfully disagree with you and concur with Peter. East and West do not change but left and right do depending upon you personal orientation to an object such as the PMX. In the southern hemisphere standing on the northen side of the mount facing south, the left knob is on the eastern side. Standing on the southern side facing north the left knob is now the one on the western side.

Given that everyone adjusts the mount's azimuth from the instrument panel side (wherethe arrow marks on the knob housing are) facing the relavant celestial pole, the change in the output for the polar alignment report to refer to left and righ knobs as opposed to east and west now appears to be sending people in the southern hemisphere in the completely wrong direction when adjusting azimuth.

Cheers

Mark"

[rat156]

No apology necessary, clearly a misunderstanding (and an unhelpfully chosen pseudonym ;)). I had to read your post three times before I noticed the lack of "l", sometimes your brain just doesn't want to register what is written. I find this with proof reading my own work all the time.

Anyway, I have also registered a post with the SB people. Don't expect a response soon though. Although they are good engineers, they just don't get customer service at SB. Virtually anytime you register a fault on the forum you get asked what version of the software etc you have, and if you aren't 100% up-to-date, then you get asked to update and repost. It's the astronomical equivalent of the IT crowd "turn it off and turn it back on again". Although this may actually be helpful (to update the software/firmware) it just leaves you with the same feeling as if you're talking to someone in Mumbai about the Telstra cable in your front yard.

Cheers
Stuart

[roughy]

Hi Frolinmod

I initiated this thread and an identically titled one on the SB forum. I entirely agree with your comments. Patience and courtesy are the catalysts for goodwill.

However goodwill is a two way street.

When I first posted my issue with SB the response from Daniel was prompt and to the point, please provide data. This I did.

Daniel's next post, left is left and right is right, was unrelated to the data nor progressing towards a solution. It is also grossly incorrect. Left and right have no relationship to hemispheres or celestial coordinates. Without providing more illustrative examples, the working solution to the issue provided on this forum is evidence of this.

My subsequent reply to Daniel was both formal and polite. I intend to maintain this standard of communication. Another individual, Alph, if I bother to respond to him, will not be treated so. I consider him to be a snide and ignorant individual.

I acknowledge the Bisques run a small company with a large client base and endeavour to do as best they can. However a request for patience rather than an off handed and wrong statement in response to a call for assistance, would have been a better step towards maintaining goodwill. Especially when one has invested 12K in their products. When you are responsible for your products, the onus is on you to maintain the relationship.

The tone of my communication with SB directly will not change nor diminish. Nevertheless, I have, and will maintain the right to insist on appropriate communications addressing my issue as opposed to dismissive and incorrect statements.

Cheers

Mark

[frolinmod]

"This has been fixed in TheSkyX build 7064 and later to be released as a daily build soon."

[PRejto]

Thanks for the heads up on the fix.

Interesting that Kim's post back in April about this issue went unnoticed on the SB forum. It ought not to take this sort of agitation to get a reply. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about this but I think it is also a bit rude for SB not to say "boo" to the posters at SB and here that have forced the issue. Why is "thanks for finding this bug" so hard for them to say? Nothing much that is happening at SB recently makes me a happy camper.

Peter

[pvelez]

Not wanting to get ovely involved in this thread - I posted the same question top SB last year - to which I received no response

Pete

[PRejto]

Finally: (in case you missed it)

Update to TheSkyX Daily Build addresses the following issues -

Tuesday July 23, 2013 Build 7110

AO slew rate limit is now correctly applied.
SkyQLink no longer listed since no driver is presently available.
Bisque TCS window now saves PEC scale.
Bisque TCS window fixed a crash doing "Save all parameters" w/o a connection.
Bisque TCS window remember path to tracking log files.
Bug Fix - For southern hemisphere, TPoint polar alignment message for MA is now correct (was backward).
Bug Fix -Make automated pointing run parameters persistent w/o having to actually run the automated pointing run.
AllSky ImageLink now has a new file format.
Fixed bug where database searches for spectral types using "equal to" did not work.
Changed the toolbar button's background color to light gray so that the "on" state is more apparent on the Mac.
Camera Add On - Filters may be assigned focuser offsets.
Fixed a bug where Automated Pointing run options were incorrectly restored to zero upon restart which occurred when "Sort for dome" was turned on.
Fixed some of the sluggishness to "Create Pointing Targets" tab of the Automated Pointing Run window.
Fixed a crash on some systems when labeling constellations.
Fixed a crash when starting an Automated Pointing Run (introduced in the prior daily build).
Camera Add On - Ensure Apogee camera's are listed, regardless of update route.