Can't believe what I saw on the train tonight...

[toc]

I cant believe the crap I saw on the train tonight in Melbourne.

I got on the train at Flagstaff station at about 5:10 pm - rushhour.

Two goth looking teenage girls where sitting a few seats from the door drinking 7/11 slushies and legs stretched out, so no one could set opposite them. A few people got on and tried to sit there, but were abused in the most vicious manner. ('Ill slit your $##@ throat if you sit there you &*^&')

At the next station, one guy in his late 50's wasn't having any of that, and sat down anyway. One of the 'girls' then went completely nuts. She took her full load of drink and dumped it on his head, and then jumped up yelling and abusing him. She then through a bottle at his head, causing a nasty gash!

The other girl, was just sitting there laughing. She also just poured the drink all over him as she jumped up.

Both then hurled abuse for the next minute or so, and then moved to the next carriage.

All i can say is :eyepop::jawdrop:

We alerted the driver, and someone who looked like an undercover police man did confront them when they got off at the next station, but they just walked off, after threatening him as well.

Im not sure what you are meant to do in a situation like that. My thoughts at the time was that really wanted someone to punch her in the face, but that would definitely not resolve anything. Animals like that cant be reasoned with either. The guy just told them to 'grow up'. No one, including me, wanted to confront them, that's for sure.

[Larryp]

Sadly, this sort of behaviour is not unusual today.:(

[bojan]

In my time (and where I am from) they would have been thrown out of train at the first opportunity, by other passengers.

The problem is, they are getting away with this kind of behaviour because no-one dares to confront them, for various reasons.. the main reason probably is a lot of trouble for confronter - if you acted, you may have been accused by police or whoever for abusing them, and not the other way around.
The world is getting upside-down these days..

[04Stefan07]

That is pathetic. Trains have cameras in all carriages so I am sure they will look at the footage and try to track these weirdos down.

Was this on the South Morang line?

[multiweb]

I agree with Bojan. A back hander and thrown out of the train by others would have been the go but you'd get sued by the dead s||ts for doing that these days. Our society has been neutered. Too much Ally McBeal on the box. :lol:

[Poita]

Actually, that sort of behaviour (violence on the train) was a lot more common when I was younger. Maybe I was on a rougher line?

These days you just have to film them and let the driver know. They will usually be picked up at the next station.


BTW, this is an interesting talk on increasing (or not) violence levels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk

[toc]

It was on the Hurstbridge line - If it has been the South Morang line, I think someone would have punched them in the face :)

I understand why no one really did anything. they were teenage girls. Not really anything a man can do there, unless they want a world of legal hassles. No doubt daddy would get them a nice lawyer.

[Forgey]

Could have done a Citizen's arrest on then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest#Victoria

[2stroke]

Grow some balls

Victoria

In the Australian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) state of Victoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_%28Australia%29), the power to arrest is granted in section 458 of the Crimes Act 1958 (Vic).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest#cite_note-3) It states that a person may, without a warrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_%28law%29), arrest a person that they find committing an offence for one or more of the following reasons:


to ensure the appearance of the offender in court, and/or
to preserve public order, and/or
to prevent the continuation or repetition of the offence, or the commission of a further offence, and/or
for the safety or welfare of the public or the offender

A person may also arrest another person if they are instructed to do so by a member of the police force, or if they believe on reasonable grounds that they are escaping legal custody.
Section 461 states that if an arrest is made under 458 of the Crimes Act, and is later proven to be false, then the arrest itself won't be considered unlawful if it was done so on reasonable grounds. Section 462A allows any person the right to use force "not disproportionate to the objective as he believes on reasonable grounds to be necessary to prevent the commission, continuance or completion of an indictable offence or to effect or assist in effecting the lawful arrest of a person committing or suspected of committing any offence".

[cfranks]

I may be a bit of an 'old f@rt' but I'm not impressed by the rest of the passengers just sitting there and doing nothing. :mad2: That was common assault and grounds for emergency stopping the train, citizen's arrest or both. I like opening the doors and chucking them out! Preferably in a tunnel so they bounce between the wall and the train for a few iterations.

Charles

[Starless]

This pair are simply polution in the human gene pool.:mad2:
The human race is badly in need of culling.

[sophie]

You are a better person than me.

I don't often get public transport anymore; I'm too old to get into the type of confrontations my temper puts me in. Don't know how I'd handle seeing this.

In this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kx_R6RW7HxM) video, taken on Saturday in Perth, seems that courtesy towards the pregnant can't even be expected sometimes.

[Astro_Bot]

Where's Buffy the Vampire Slayer when you need her? She would have made short work of those two parasites. :P

More seriously, though, i remember Sydney in the 80's and not letting my girlfriend take the train home after 10pm due to the risk of violence. I think it's always been around, but we have the internet now to tell/show us all about it.

[Larryp]

The trouble is, if you lay a hand on these people, you will probably be in trouble yourself.
As others have said, its difficult and probably unacceptable for a male to physically restrain these females, even for a citizens arrest-I can just imagine the charges these girls would lay. Do you really want to go to court and hope you get off?
When I was growing up, the local cop would give you a boot up the bum and tell you to get home if you got out of line-unfortunately it doesn't happen any more!

[AstralTraveller]

I'm not on trains much but a few years ago I was coming back from Sydney during rush hour and just nearby was a group of late teenage-early 20's males, shirtless, drinking and talking loudly about the tagging they were going to do. They were clearly out of order but also a bit too dangerous to annoy. Nearby were a couple of blokes who could have passed for undercover Ds, but then again maybe not. What made me think they were Ds is that one left the carriage and went out to the area near the door and made a phone call and when he returned the other sort of asked (more visually than verbally) "well?" to which the first replied "yes". I also noticed they were keeping an eye on the hooligans. Of course many others were too but it just seemed to me they were making sure the situation was under control so they didn't have to blow their cover. I was getting off the stop before them so I didn't if there was a welcoming committee at Wollongong Station. I hope there was!

Why do people act like this? Well, on the nature vs nurture debate I think this is nurture. We have this underclass of dysfunctional parents breeding (often like rabbits) dysfunctional kids. My sister is a mid-wife and she sees the start of the process all the time. [If you aren't going to try to be a decent parent in the maternity ward what will you be like at home?] Just recently they had one in that was having number 4, numbers 1-3 having been removed by DOCS. The child was born addicted and, again, will end up with DOCS. The problem is that DOCS only have enough resources to intervene in extreme cases. There is plenty of very bad parenting that nothing is done about. Often the friends and relatives of the dysfunctional parents are dysfunctional themselves so the child abuse just seems normal. It's a very sad state of affairs at turning it around would take a lot of effort, even if the political will was there to do something. Meanwhile this situation is a drain on the rest of society.

[blink138]

compulsive sterilisation seems to be the way forward (for some) does it not?

[tlgerdes]

This is what happens when you give kids "rights" without responsibilities.

[toc]

And do what exactly? Hog tie them both? I didnt fancy being punched and kicked in the head by a bunch of drugged up teeenage girls, while I waited for the cops, especially since the train staff do nothing at all to intervene or assist.

[Starless]

I find myself agreeing with Astral Traveller.
I rekon you should have to pass an IQ test and apply
for a licence before you are allowed to breed.
This pair are obviously raised by ignorant morons.

[Hans Tucker]

I believe, and I may be wrong, that the CCTV Cameras in the carriages are only activated when the call for emergency button is pushed. In this instance the cameras should have been on recording the incident.

Trouble is society is accepting this behaviour as the norm. What would it take for Melbournians to get off their apathetic rears and mobilise to make the politicians and judicial system accountable. They promise safety on the trains but they are not delivering.

[Lee]

100% true....

This is coupled with a neutered school system too afraid to actually enforce a reasonable standard of behaviour/discipline....

[TrevorW]

Sorry I would have thumped the *****es grabbed them by the hair and thrown them off the train into a gutter where they belong, people should stand up for themselves as a group support each other that is what a society, community is, we deserve better and will only get it if we defend each other as the law is letting us down in so many ways its getting pathetic

[bloodhound31]

Film it on your phone camera and publicly shame them worldwide on you-tube.

[telemarker]

It would be a badge of honour for them.

[g__day]

Weirdest one I ever had was someone trying to mug me coming of a train late one night at Redfern; only 1) I was alot bigger than him and 2) the Punching bag I was carrying over my shoulder 120lbs was probably bigger then him. I couldn't stop laughing at his mind boggling bad choice. I mean I even looked like a boxer back then; I wasn't - I was training for a full-contact, knockdown karate tournament doing maybe 30 fights a week and all I could think of was a village somewhere is missing an idiot.

The trouble for hooligans is that one day they will pick the wrong person and really regret it. I've trained with a little girl who broke two guys legs when she got mugged at an ATM. She told me later she just him them by reflex once she realised she was being attacked; then she got angry and decided to hurt them - only they didn't get back up! Three blows - under 2 seconds - four broken ribs - two broken thigh bones and a very pissed of martial artist. There are some serious folk out there - why be rude to anyone?

[zorkon]

This was in Seattle few years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVgP5zH1Kss

more opinion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjnJUdBGqzU


The point is made: if you get involved you are taking the risk of being injured yourself (it could escalate and get serious, they could pull a weapon). But these days you also risk a charge of assault from them - especially if you are a guy. In that video, the boyfriend is remarkably controlled, acts as a 'shield' (taking kicks to the head) and pushing some of them away but does not fight. You might do that for your girlfriend, but would you do that for a stranger?

In your case, I am surprised these girls were not arrested? Especially since they had thrown a bottle and the guy had a gash? Great! They'll just do it again sometime.

[DavidU]

There would have been an "accident", I would have "accidentally" hit their nose with my elbow.
I would not put up with it.

[rat156]

Well, I can't believe what I'm reading here.

You people are advocating violence against another person. What an excellent example you are setting.

You are even advocating violence against innocent people (the comment about compulsory sterilisation).

I'm sorry, but I can't discuss the inequities of the current traffic laws in Victoria without the thread being locked or thrown away, yet you people openly advocate violence against other members of the human race.

I am utterly disgusted by the opinions expressed in this thread. I am more disgusted that I am the only person who has replied that has this opinion it seems.

I am disgusted that the moderators and site management let this on thier site.

Good-bye, again.

Stuart

[barx1963]

While I certainly do not in any way condone the behaviour of the 2 young lasses in question, this sort of behaviou has been going on for years. I travelled on the Belgrave/Lilydale between Mont Albert and East Richmond every day for 4 years in the late 70s and then into the City for 2 years after that and poor behaviour was everywhere. Swearing, fighting, drunk people, I was regularly offered drugs etc. And this was one of the better behaved lines.
I have travelled on subways in New York and through South Central LA and felt much safer than I did going to school in Melbourne back in the 70s.
I also agree with Stuart, violence is NOT the answer, unfortunately I do not know what is.

Malcolm

[beren]

Just a vid to lighten things up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KofPcedJFic

[stephenb]

Is this your incident?

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/two-feral-teens-filmed-physically-and-verbally-assaulting-a-man-on-a-packed-rush-hour-train/story-fni0fit3-1226665951514

[pfitzgerald]

Although the incident should never have taken place at all it was good to hear on the news this morning that both girls were detained by police at Clifton Hill where they got off the train and that the older of the two girls was arrested for assaulting police.

[multiweb]

You did the right thing. :thumbsup: Staying out of trouble. Intervening would have landed you in a lot of trouble especially when paid staff didn't get involved straight away. People always have their own opinions and great ideas in insight. :lol: I like the idea of taping it and putting it in on youtube for the 'hall of shame'.

[Lee]

Funny how the news channels censor the assailants faces, yet show us the victim isn't it....
I'm sure we are now paying for a smug little lefty legal aid lawyer or two to defend this trash....

[toc]

Thats it! Glad someone documented it...

[zorkon]

I am relieved they were arrested.

[toc]

Interesting to hear from the victim. Next time this sort of thing happens, I will ignore the 'attacker' and try to make the person being attacked feel like they are not alone - perhaps re-assure them that there are witnesses around, etc...

[Satchmo]

Every one has their own boundaries of personal space- beyond which people can turn violent . I once lost it when a drunkard who took a disliking to me on the train tried to trip me up twice as I alighted the train and was walking the platform. I wasn't charged with anything but it made me realise how close we all are to violence if our personal boundaries are encroached.

Their behaviour was apalling but in swiping someones leg off the seat he was taking the law into his own hands - he could have been knifed - in a way he overstepped a personal boundary and payed a price.He thought being male and big he could assert himself but these girls clearly had other ideas. I'm am as appalled by anyone about their behaviour and I'm pointing out a finer point of what I see happened.

[Ric]

It's good to see that they were apprehended.

Still they will probably only get a good behavour bond or no conviction if it's a first offence.

[TrevorW]

What happened to decency, manners, respect for your elders, unfortunately these girls are victims of a modern society, but they should be taught that their type of behavior was totally unacceptable.

Sometimes when dealing with people that have no respect for others a good kick in the ass is what they deserve and will understand.

[rat156]

So they shouldn't get a Defence at all??

Again, the opinions in this thread are worse than the incident.

[Octane]

It's emotion, Stuart.

I'm sure once you peel the emotion away, everyone in this thread would entitle these two bits of garbage wrapped in skin, the defense they're entitled to.

H

[TrevorW]

Their actions are indefensible, maybe you'd have a different opinion if you'd had been the victim, it's easy to sit on a fence an express an opinion when you may never have been the victim of unwarranted violence, they should have moved their feet after being asked plain and simple it's what decent people would do.

I have an can assure you IMO they have no justifiable reason except possibly moronic stupidity for what they did.

People cannot go through life blaming others for their actions we make our own decisions right or wrong and suffer the consequences thereof

:shrug::question:

[AstralTraveller]

There appears to be confusion about the word 'defense'. Whether or not your actions are defensible you are still entitled to a legal defense when answering charges. It is then up to the judge/jury to decide whether the defense can be accepted. The defense barrister may also present arguments for extenuating or mitigating circumstances and, again, the judge may accept or reject such arguments. This is not some smug leftie approach but the basis for British jurisprudence for many many hundreds of years.

[Baddad]

Well, some strong opinions flying here. I will add my bit.
The paid staff are instructed not to become involved physically in such incidents. They have to alert security.

The reason that it seems safer to travel by public transport in the USA is that the number of security personell is much greater. Each station has security as well as a number traveling on the trains.

Trevor, I agree, it is a different tune the victim plays. It is so easy to be on the fence with a poorly informed opinion.


Cheers

[rat156]

And these opinions are defensible?

More like the opinions of Sattler, Jones and Laws than those of reasonable caring members of society.

Get a grip people, these were two children behaving badly, who amongst us hasn't done something that we have regretted later? It doesn't need to be physical harm, causing someone mental anguish can be more serious, usually because the actions don't get reported and they don't result in a gash on the head.

These bigoted opinions and the usual bigoted opinions that are commonly held in concert with them cause more harm to individuals and society then this incident ever will.

But you defend your opinions.

That is indefensible!

Stuart

[rat156]

So Trevor, you KNOW that I have not been a victim?

Is there such a thing as WARRANTED violence? It seems to some on this thread the answer is yes.

I also don't think I'm fence sitting, I have expressed a firm opinion that further violence in this case was not the answer.

I have also expressed some dismay at the continuation of the thread when such inflammatory statements (see above post) have been made.

Stuart

[Poita]

I have to agree, that inciting another layer of violence doesn't make much sense. In this case the system seems to have worked pretty well, some people broke the law and were arrested. Crime and violence is down compared to 30 years ago by pretty much any measure. In fact compared to any time in history really. I've been a victim of group violence in Milsons Point Park of all places, but I still am not going to buy into the idea that the world is a more violent place than it used to be, or that individuals should set themselves up as Judge and Jury. What happened was appalling, but they were apprehended in the end.
Don't get sucked in by the media portraying 'the kids today', there are always some a**holes around, but way less than when I was a kid.
Have a listen to the TED talk I posted back a few pages, it is quite enlightening.

[bojan]

Decent people (and kids) would never put their feet on a seat, for the starters.

I do not defend what I wrote earlier, it was not even an opinion, as a matter of fact
However, IMO, the rat156's reaction to my post was not warranted and over the top - I only wrote what would have happened in my time (when I was young and when I was learning how to behave in public).
I do not have to mention that the idea of putting my feet on the opposite seat in a train wouldn't even appear in my mind.. perhaps because I learned my lessons when I was supposed to ? :shrug:

[Gruffalo]

Advocating further violence is just chest beating and false bravado. Lots of internet heroes, but I also agree with Bojan completely - would not have happened when I was growing up either. The answer to this one would be to calmly "lodge" a complaint against these goths and that they should cease and desist from this unlawful activity. No violence, no touching even, just a brave voice objecting to the antics these 2 were playing. This would also shift the focus onto you, but hopefully there would be people willing to stand by you (not pretend not to notice like the guys in the video - disgusting male beahviour). You would also have witnesses. Just stand your ground, and the minute one of these morons decide to take any action of any nature OTHER than cease and desist, slap a citizen arrest against them, as they had already broken the law. Including any necessary force required for detention to bring to authorities - WITHOUT any violence against them.

[rat156]

So what was your post if not an opinion? If it is a statement of fact then you HAVE physically ejected someone from a train (presumably whilst it was not moving), is this not violence?

How can my questioning of this implied action be "over the top"?

One one hand you are condemning violence by stating that you would have acted to throw them off the train, by doing so you advocate the same violence you condemn. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of your, and other's, posts.

Only a couple of posts later than yours is the one advocating a "backhander" in agreement with your opinion. Can you not see that your expression of your "fact" has, in some way, incited a call to act violently?

Stuart

[Hans Tucker]

These kids aren't related or known to you are they Stuart? Whilst you have a justifiable issue with the level of violence expressed in this thread I have an issue with the way you brush this off as bad behaviour. This more than kids behaving badly, this is assault both of a paying commuter and a Police Officer which is criminal.

[bojan]

Mate, you are over the top. Please cool down and read my post again.
And, I am NOT a hypocrite. I did NOT throw anyone off train, neither I ever stated that I should or did.
Be more careful when you are sticking labels on people..

[Astro_Bot]

While violence has always been around, and seems to be decreasing if anything, IMHO, there is a middle ground of inconsiderate, rude or arrogant behaviour that is increasing, and not just amongst teenagers.

I recall clearly as a kid the arguments of my elders regarding courtesy on public transport (or, indeed, anywhere) and giving up one's seat for an adult, any adult ... and most children did. Now that I'm an "elder", I hear that far less (as if people have given up that battle) and the concern is shifting to aggressive, hostile or other outright obnoxious behaviour.

I do think there is a problem, but my evidence is merely anecdotal.

[2stroke]

People are just voicing there discussed. You are allowed to use justifiable force to defend yourself and others, this is the real world step outside your bubble. I just wonder if it was your wife or father would you still have the same opinion?

[Bassnut]

We should all carry guns, preferably automatic.
I wish we we were more like the USA.
God bless you all.

[AstralTraveller]

Well, I'll defend my comment. Bad parenting does tend to produce maladjusted children who in turn tend to produce maladjusted children. It's sad but true. Yes there are exceptions, some kids come good despite the odds being against them and some turn out bad even though they had a good upbringing, but if you don't thing bad parenting tends to produce bad children then you are saying that parents have no influence over their children.

I feel sorry for the kids, these two included. They clearly have issues that in this case have caused them grief and one fears for their future. Just yesterday I heard of a case where the defense barrister was pleading the case for a bloke found guilty of a violent crime (rape and/or murder). If the tendered facts are true he was routinely abused as a child, never shown any love, beaten up by his parents and raped by a neighbour. The term 'walking time bomb' was used and I can imagine it is pretty accurate. I don't have the figures at hand but I think we all know that many, probably most, perpetrators of child sexual abuse were themselves abused as children.

So, yes, I do think we have a problem with the production of a dysfunctional underclass, I think it is wrong, I think the kids are victims and I think it is a collective failure that this situation is allowed to perpetuate.

Sattler, Jones and Laws? Don't ever compare me to those scum again.

[GrahamL]

More than a touch of irony in that some of the views unfolding in this mess seem to advocate the same arrogant behaviour as on the train !!

[Starless]

Here here!!:thumbsup:

[Starless]

I'm not advocating violent assault on an innocent commuter!

Simply suggesting that there are way to many people creating
children for no other reason than to collect Costello's baby
bonus.

This pair were obviously raised by idiots.

[el_draco]

In "my day" they would have been over my knee naked butt thrashed till it glowed and then thrown off the train...., without waiting for the next station.... gawd I miss the screamin.... :(

[FlashDrive]

I just decided to read this thread......to see what it was about.

I know what I'd do.....it's called ' self defense ' .....if that was me on the receiving end of those 2 girls and their unwarranted abuse / assaults...
Once they had ' touched ' me in anyway.....( remember...I've done nothing to them, except sit down opposite them )......they would wish they had never got on that train....and I'd be prepared to go to Court over it.

There would be countless witnesses to the event....and as someone here has mentioned....cameras to reveal who were the ' perpetrators '....and no doubt a lot of ' hand clapping and cheers ' as those 2 girls are laid on the floor ' out cold '

If I was on that train and saw what was happening to that older bloke....nothing would stop me from assisting him ...because .. just maybe...maybe .. he was too scared and ' needed ' someone to come to his aid.
At least,I would still feel I had ' done something ' to help a fellow human being.

If I got hurt in the process...then I'd be prepared to cop a bit myself in the defense of an innocent person.....AS THIS IS NOT ' VIOLENCE ' ...IT IS ' SELF PRESERVATION ' and ' SELF DEFENSE '.....a LAWFUL RIGHT in Society..

You ' do gooder's ' need to get a reality check ...because one day it might be you ....looking and hoping someone will come along side and ' stand with you "

You all know the saying ' Evil prevails .... because ' GOOD MEN ' stand back and DO NOTHING.

Flash......

[Clancy Lane]

Thank you Col!

The only reason that there is loud aggressive behaviour from these people is because they think they can get away with it.

Thanks Tim for posting this and I understand how you must feel after witnessing this appalling incident.

My Army service taught me to be proficient in unarmed combat and many bullies have got a big surprise over the years.

BUT, surprisingly enough, the confidence my training gave me actually caused most of these bullies to think and stop BEFORE they got hurt.

I do agree that violence begets violence and I am appalled at the amount of violence my 4 y.o.son sees when watching cartoons on the kids channel.

Violence is not the answer but neither is passiveness.

We would not need the armed forces if the diplomatic corps did it's job!

But...with some people diplomacy does not work.

Thankfully, we live in a society were all can freely express an opinion.

Things go pearshaped when someone reckons their opinion is the only opinion.

Tolerence?

Cheers,

Phil

[Regulus]

This was reported in the online press tonight.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/17668134/man-attacked-on-train/

[TrevorW]

You know if we had all stood back and let the bullies do what they want without standing up for our rights and the rights of others the world would be a far different world than it is today.

As a community we are obligated to protect each other from those who wish to abuse or destroy the virtues that make us decent human beings people who are able to work and live together as a community in harmony.

As someone said when diplomacy fails then alas violence is often our only option left to protect our rights.

The sad part is that no one else came to his assistance, idly standing by and allowing the degradation of another for the most inane reason.

This is why the get away with what they do.

[Lee]

They will get a defence, paid for by the hard working people they abuse no doubt.

People expressing their opinions on how to protect their, and other peoples safety is worse than a brazen assault occasioning harm?? My opinion is that you, Stuart, are delusional, or just a troll.

[Hagar]

I have just read this huge thread and to say the least I am disappointed with some of the comments posted.

Firstly, these are not kids, with comments like I will kill you, this is intent.
Secondly, puting their feet up on a seat where people hope to sit. And lastly throwing drinks over someone who makes a reasonable request. Next time it may be battery acid.

How many times do we see this sort of thing on the news and how many of these idiots get away with it. Time we all started sticking up for each other and started treating these poor excuses for human beings with the contempt they deserve.

The poor gent in this incident felt he couldn't retaliate because they were just kids but to hell with that idea. There age may say they are kids but their behavior indicates they are dangerous.

In my case I would have hit them both. This pandering bull**** has to stop.

[Clancy Lane]

Thank you Lee!

I had forgotten about that particular behaviour and it seems to explain a lot of things.

The desire for peaceful human interaction is a luxury afforded to Australia...at the present.

But......if we allow loud and aggressive people to dictate their opinions/actions then we deserve the loss of the freedom to live in safety.

Democracy demands that to change something, the silent majority must speak out.

Stuart....after reading your previous posts I have formed an opinion that you are A TROLL!

Actually, your response has created a vibe that would not be there but for the negativity.

Viva La democracy!

Cheers,

Sgt PJ Sheehan (ret)
1 RAR
2 RTB

[FlashDrive]

Stuart (rat156 ).......OK...I'll just ' stand back ' and watch you get assaulted and let you cop some ' horrific ' injuries.
Gee....poor old Stuart...we can't help him ... because he sees it as ' violence begetting violence.

What a tragedy...as Stuart is loaded into the Ambulance...beaten to a pulp....( if only we could have ' helped ' him )....anyway.....back to reading the Newspaper....!!

Flash......

[RobF]

Being involved in drugs of abuse testing for a living, I'd be a lot more cautious dealing with such eratic behaviour in public. The stats are there to show a surprisingly high proportion of dangerous drivers for example are under the influence of drugs (not including alcohol). If a weapon became involved things could rapidly get out of control.


Just in case this post upsets anyone any more, I think PCs and Microsoft software are superior to Apple too BTW. :poke:

[Octane]

Rob, get out and never post again. :P

H

[apaulo]

The only reason why these girls get away with this Behaviour is because nobody stands up to them. If a group of people stood up and defended this guy the result would of been different.
I totally agree with Hagar and 2stoke and I think people like rat123 would of simply stuck his head in the newspaper and do nothing.
Man up rat123 and grow some.
Apaulo.

[RobF]

5 years of being well behaved and suddenly I turn Troll :D :fishing: :evil2:

[Octane]

Successful troll is successful! :P

H

[RickS]

You play the long game, Rob!

[norm]

Very interesting comments by all :)

I'm giving this another 15 posts before its locked :lol:


Norm :thumbsup:

Someone posted that the victims faced was shown, but the perpetrators were pixelated.......this pretty somes it all up.... Our priorities are skewed.

[Clancy Lane]

The meek shall inherit the earth; (After we've finished with it!)

[Octane]

What's that, norm? 15 more pages? I'm up for that. :P

H

[marki]

Lets face it folks the human species is de-evolving back into red bottomed apes and we can expect to see many such screeching displays and hurling of excrement by the left overs crawling out of the now severely depleted gene pool. If we act swiftly by sterilizing these girls we can make sure they never add to the demise of our species. Forced sterilization and public whippings are the way to go in the future IMHO ;).

Mark

[multiweb]

:lol: We're one generation too late. The parents should have been taken care of. :P

[CJ]

Ever heard of Lynch Mobs? Given some of the views expressed on this thread, is it not understandable why this approach has been adopted?

[Lee]

Because lynchings are a common occurrence in 21st century Australia.... :rolleyes:

[TrevorW]

Marki, stirrer :thumbsup::P:D

Lynching is illegal but public flogging still occurs in some places eg: Singapore (do they still do)

:question:

[CJ]

Not quite grasped the principle there have you?

[Lee]

I saw your metaphor, but chose to ignore it....

Actually a few roaming lynch mobs could do this country a favour - anyone else on board? :P

[TrevorW]

I commute by train every day the problem is there are regulations and rules when riding on a train that are displayed all over a train but people ignore

eg: playing loud music
consuming food and drink
school kids occupying seat while adults stand

now we have transit guards but they are never on the train during peak hrs but instead stand around on station platform in groups of up to four waiting for something to happen @ a station or apprehend someone who gets off a train who has been reported as causing a problem on the train

Like the police being seen if often a deterrence unfortunately these people who our taxes pay for are being underutilized IMO, the system lets the commuter down, the only way this may change is for people to force their complaints. I say may because often Govt agencies do not listen.

[AstralTraveller]

Of course you have to be willing to hang your own son if he has committed murder.

[Hans Tucker]

Watch the ad :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntZ14BAFMyo

[kinetic]

In my day we used to live in 'ole in road.

[RobF]

:rofl: Use to love those. 2:30 has me in stiches.

[jjjnettie]

That's right. Those girls would certainly have behaved themselves better if they each had a 9mm pistol in their hand bags. :D :rofl:

[rat156]

Sorry Bojan, I did indeed misread your post, you simply stated that other people would have thrown them off the train.

Please accept my apologies.

Stuart

[rat156]

Hmm, now my father is dead, so that would be problematic. If it was my wife I would indeed defend her, the best course of action would be to remove myself or my loved ones from the situation first, then phone the police.

If you people could actually read what I write that would help.

I do not defend the action of the two girls.

Someone did defend the victim in question, using the appropriate means, they rang the cops, who are trained professionals and dealt with the situation without any further violence.

If the victim, or anyone else for that matter had responded violently, they should also have been detained, perhaps they would not have been charged once the police got the full story, but I'm pretty sure that they would have been detained at the scene at least.

Again, I'll state it so it's clear, the calls for violence against these two girls by people on this forum disgusts me. It is my opinion, which I believe that I'm entitled to hold and defend (without resorting to violence).

Stuart

[rat156]

Sorry, that bit was meant for some of the other comments, your's was quite mild and didn't deserve to be lumped into the rest.

Stuart

[rat156]

Dear Phil (and Lee),

Please continue to contribute to the debate, without resorting to name calling.

Am I not allowed to express and argue an opinion without being called a troll?

Stuart (not ret)
TF66 SOTG

[rat156]

Thanks for your incisive comments flash.

Please re-read my previous posts, I did not advocate doing nothing. In fact I didn't advocate anything, I was merely stating that the posts which I believe were inciting violence were inappropriate in this forum.

If you cannot contribute to an adult discussion about violence in society please refrain from posting in this thread.

Stuart

[rat156]

Please, if you're going to use my forum name, at least get it right. I (usually) sign my posts with my name, you could always use that instead.

This has been the second post suggesting that I should "man up" or something similar, along with a couple of posts saying I'm either delusional or living in a "bubble".

To this I can only say, firstly, you assume I'm a man, which is correct, but until now was still an assumption. Which brings me on to the second, and possibly more important fact, you don't know me, what I do or where I am. I can't go into too many details on this forum, but at present, my "bubble" is in Afghanistan, where I see the results of extreme violence almost every day, I get shot at regularly.

Perhaps some of those calling for violence should "man up" themselves and see the consequences of the failure of diplomacy first hand.

Stuart

[noeyedeer]

people have said that Legal Aid is tax payers money, apparently when I used it many moons ago, in qld, lawyers have to submit a day of free advice for defense. upon knowing this I just pleaded guilty in my own defense.

they're usually uni students or some new kid at a firm

[noeyedeer]

seriously Stuart. you chose to be in the army or whatever ... blame America for Afghanistan, and thirdly no one cares

[noeyedeer]

conscripted men got spat on when they returned from Vietnam ... I doubt you will ... think yourself lucky Stuart

ps its me shooting at you from my camo bunker in COD MW3

..and on topic, I wonder if they would've been apprehended if the didn't attack a copper .....

either way a packed train no one helps ...we live in a society where video ... no matter what happens .. is the best thing (sadly intervention isn't it)

[Gruffalo]

And I bet these 2 Goths HOPED exactly that - that 20 people would film them on their phones, so they can become famous amongst their Goth peers and infamous to the rest of society. If someone had stood up to them, likely a different image would have appeared, and these 2 likely would have been shamed rather than famed.

Thugs are everywhere in society. Just look how so many people sue someone when they don't get what they want - that's thuggery too - intimidation and threat through legal coercion. People don't have the courage or even brains these days to deal with things themselves, or be diplomatic and let things slide.

And to call Stuart a troll is nothing short of short sightedness, and a total inability to accept another person's ideas, beliefs and morals. To start calling him troll and requesting him to leave the forum is somehow not bullying or nonacceptance? Live the differences in life - you'll be rewarded for it. Argue against something you don't believe in, and agree to disagree. Don't resort to pettiness and childish rants.

[FlashDrive]

Well then.... you had better make yourself quite clear to us all here....what your ' really ' trying to say....what do you advocate....?? the offense has already happened...you have been assaulted....and your gonna try ' diplomacy ' after the fact......that's letting them off the hook.....deal with it ....it's called self defense.

and as for : I was merely stating that the posts which I believe were inciting violence were inappropriate in this forum......they are expressing what needs to be done to people ( and these girls are Adults ) who behave in such a manner to cause injury to another innocent person.

and re: ' If you cannot contribute to an Adult discussion about violence ' ....but I have..I've made a contribution to this thread..I made my point very clear....put on a pair of glasses if you can't read properly nor comprehend what's being said.

and: ... please refrain from posting in this thread....what a joke :lol::lol:...it's not even your thread.....:lol:


As many have said.....we would not stand back and do nothing.......you don't advocate anything....your words fella.

I will use force to subdue force.....but you call it ' violence ' .....:shrug::rolleyes:

Flash......;)

[cfranks]

Luxury!

[jjjnettie]

My thoughts on the matter are this...
If it was a woman of the same age who was assaulted by these women, would everyone just stand back and let it happen?
In my opinion, if you would stand up and defend a woman, you should do the same for a man.
NO ONE should be subjected to this sort of thing while others stand back and let it happen.
Chivalry should work both ways.
Personally, I would have stood up to them, demanding them to cease their outrageous behaviour and if they didn't, I would hope to have had others near by grow a pair and back me up. A wall of people surrounding them, calling for them to stop should be intimidating enough to hold them until security officers came for them.

[blink138]

here here nettie!
I think it is the act of doing nothing here which is the crime!
personally I am NOT a "keyboard warrior" and I am afraid I would have been in there "boots an all" and that DOES scare me
I also think that these "girls(?)" new that a man In all likelihood would not retaliate!.......... however they did take an enormous risk in that the chap in question said he was 6-4 and a120!

[AstralTraveller]

Fair enough, preventing them from continuing their assault and detaining them is reasonable. [Assaulting them or throwing them off the train isn't.] I would like to say I'd be with you but I fear I know myself too well and I'm basically a coward. About 20 years ago I was standing in my backyard when a bloke who had just robbed the neighbours place jumped the fence with a bag of loot. I tried to yell at him to stop but all that came out was a strangled yelp. By the time I took a deep breath and got a real yell out he had dropped the bag and run. So perhaps my presence did spook him but my actions didn't. I'm afraid a few of us may find that our inner chook comes out just when we don't need it. I wonder how often the apparent indifference of bystanders isn't really just blind fear?

[rat156]

Your italics lock appears to be stuck on. Also your period key appear to stick, it makes your posts difficult to read.

But, trolling through your post, trying to extract the meaning from it, I think you've missed the point again.

You, and others, are attacking my perceived opinion that I would have stood back and done nothing to help this bloke out. A statement I have never made. A statement I would not make because it is untrue.

What I have said, now repeatedly, I'll put it in italics so you can read it.

I object to the posts calling for a violent reaction to the girl's actions.

Is that clear now?

The posts by Nettie and Astraltraveller above probably best sum up my expected response to the situation should I have been faced with it.

Stuart

[rat156]

Thanks for your support.

Stuart

[rat156]

Now I know why my BA has a plate in the back!;)

Stuart

[FlashDrive]

@rat156 ....Never mind....we all see things differently from where we sit.
...and yes my Italic button is how I like to use it.:D

Flash.....:hi:

[pluto]

I care that you're serving our country Stuart, thanks.

[Starless]

Likewise!
Keep up the good work and keep your head down.:thumbsup:

[beren]

Second that, I care to thanks Stuart.

[Hans Tucker]

And you believe that Stuart has accepted other peoples ideas, belief and morals. I really think you should go back and read his first contribution to this thread. I don't advocate violence and I don't really agree with some of the responses posted in this thread but I sure understand peoples initial response to the story and their view that a physical, albeit violent, retaliation was warranted to the situation...it's a natural initial human response..one that is shared by most but not shared by all. So respect is a two way street and I don't really believe Stuart has shown the same courtesy to others that he expects from them....just my 2 cents worth.

When we resort to name calling I think the argument/discussion/debate has run it's course.

[rat156]

Hi Hans,

I accept that people have opinions that differ from my own, I just don't agree with them.

I think that this will be the fifth time I've said this, my distaste was levelled at the posts which were advocating violence as a solution to the problem. Initially, at least, my posts were not about the actions which initiated the thread.

I have apologised to the two people whose posts I misinterpreted. I have never received an apology from anyone on this forum for any abuse I have received, (save for one individual, the conversation was at a PM level) from this thread or any other, nor do I expect one.

My first contribution to this thread stated that I was disgusted at the opinions being aired. This opinion hasn't changed. I don't see that having a different opinion is disrespectful.

Stuart

[DavidU]

I for one respect Stuarts point of view, no problem at all.

[CJ]

Me too.

[2stroke]

Well if you really are in afghanistan, state what the they did at pre deployment training, what they trained you to do (anyone who has being there has being trained with this) and were it was held? :thumbsup: In another thread you were watching a doco on afgan back in April, nice image from afgan to mate in march. Mate my cousine (3rd tour) singnals and 2 of my very best friends inf/rifleman are in afgan currently and i know all the facts. how much is your weekly allowance?

[TrevorW]

Stew violence is always a last resort if they failed to listen to reason and

a) ceased and desist
b) apologized to the victim
c) pay for the mans dry cleaning
d) clean up the mess they caused on the train
e) apologize to other passengers for their bad behavior
f) be accountable for your actions to authorities

then violence would be unnecessary.

[rat156]

As part of SOTG I am not at liberty to say what I did at pre-deployment training other than that which is conducted at Randwick Barracks, three days of death by Powerpoint, followed by two days of weapons testing, with a little bit of CBC training thrown in.

The incountry RSOI is very similar for conventional forces.

I don't want to discuss my personal finances over the internet.

It sounds like you disbelieve that I'm actually here? If so, please state it clearly and concisely.

Unless you have been here, then I doubt you know ALL the facts. I'm here and I certainly don't.

Stuart

[PeterM]

I also respect Stuarts point of view.

[Starless]

I definatley prefer to have Stuart's point of view than sharia.

[Hans Tucker]

Hi Stuart,

I am not attacking your views just your chosen method of expressing them in your first post to this thread. I thought possibly you had let your emotions guide your response particularly when you challenged the moderators to close the thread. If you felt that strongly about what was being expressed you could have clicked the red X and put in a complaint direct to the moderators.

On another note did anyone see the story on ACA about a pregnant woman on a Sydney train I think whom simply asked another woman to remove her bag from the seat so she could sit down. She received a tirade of abuse from this woman for her request. Luckily in this instant other passengers came to her defence.

[2stroke]

Well it was germany 6 weeks, they were trained to hate the enemy so they wouldn't freeze, it was really a brainwashing and one of my friends hasn't being the same since. It really made me sick to hear what they did and the way he now speaks about afgans. Allowance is about $120 usd a week, this is not income its only just for meals. I do question your statement about being enlisted. I leave it at that, lol next ill be turning into a troll haha

[Hans Tucker]

And yet you possibly risk getting your cousin and your friends in trouble for discussing this information on an open forum. They were possibly given a security brief which you were not privy to.

[rat156]

Ah, well, I'm an Australian, so I really can't comment on what the US guys do.

Stuart

[TrevorW]

This has moved away somewhat from the point of the initial post and appears to be attacking Stew.

Regardless of his point of view it's one he is entitled too have like it or not don't disrespect or attack him for what you may consider a misguided point of view.

In all fairness he may have jumped to conclusions based upon emotive responses which possibly would never have eventuated had they been their at the time.

You can only assume how you may react in the heat of the moment but when you are faced with it, you response will no doubt be completely different.

[rat156]

Hi Hans,
The mods are monitoring the thread already, one of them (at least) has diverted some ugliness.

I have previously commented on the application of moderation in this forum to, usually, another tirade of abuse.

More recently, the moderation has been excellent, discussions can go on, only the nasty posts are moderated, which seems entirely sensible. So thanks to the mods for that.

Stuart

[rat156]

Don't worry Trev, I'm big enough and ugly enough to take a verbal lashing or two.

I say let the discussion continue, it seems that a few people actually agree with me.

Stuart or Stew or Stu or even rat156 if you prefer.

[2stroke]

And how are they going to prove that mate? I didnt say i got the pre deployment training info from my cousin did I? I didn't say the names of my my 2 mates. Dam i wish's my wife would stop telling me about this thread haha, you put on your tin foil hat and ill put my troll mask on hahaha.

[2stroke]

There not US there aussies mate, I'am questioning you being on the line, if thats the lingo, not saying your not apart of the defense force, maybe your a tech or office jocky. They are given US currency which is used for meals as the army does not cater for them, lol my cousin blow all hers on in 1 day when shes first got to one base as they didn't tell her it was meal money.

I do admire your fight against cancer, but believe your wrong about letting the police handle everything and not standing into help someone who is being attacked with fair force. Yes some people have made dumb comments about just hitting people ect but there just blowing off steam and feel outraged like myself. You can't take everything everyone says as what they would do. People really mean escort the problem maker off the train using correct and appropriate force and not throwing them off to cause harm or injury. Thread like this cause to many issues and are the reason this forum should not allow them, deciosions like this should be left to real life and a internet forum where communication isn't broken down.

[Hans Tucker]

Not sure what the reference to the tin foil hat is to in this particular instant. I was simply stating that if your cousin or friends may have shared some information that you might exercise a bit of caution in what you divulge for their sake. Since I sense a bit of over confidence I will pass this on to Defence Security....they may want to investigate it or they may not bother.

[2stroke]

Yer what ever mate, i'am so shaking in my boots, ohh no the mps are coming, mommy help me. :) Can't wait to see you at the next astro meet :) and discuss this :) hans you were telling me all about this at the last astro meet mate remember?

[rat156]

Well in TK there is an Aussie mess, at KAF there are several messes which you can eat at free of charge, at BAF it's a similar situation to KAF, at FOBs they have MREs or Ratpacks if they don't have a mess, I can only think of one place where there may not be a mess or DFAC.

I, and all my mates here get paid directly into our bank accounts in $AU, you can get cash from the cash office, but only for stuff from the PX stores or buying stuff from locals, both of which are cheap.

With $125/day (either US or AUD) you would live like a king if you were purchasing food etc.

Unfortunately due to the nature of my work here I can't disclose what I'm actually doing, but you may be surprised.



In an ideal world, people wouldn't say one one thing and do another. The world is far from ideal. If they "really" meant to do what you describe then perhaps they should have said so and I would have had no cause to have a whinge.

Stuart

[Hans Tucker]

How about you grow up. No MP's are coming to kick your door down nor is ASIO going to tap your phone. The most if anything that would come of it is that they emphasise to the troops the security part of the pre-deployment training. That bit at the end where you are trying to elude that I said anything to you at whatever Astro meet is rather plebeian. All I did was ask you to consider your relative and friends before you mouth off on what possibly have been told..if that makes me the biggest tool I will wear that as a badge of honour. You obviously have never served at day in your life in the forces and know nothing of mateship or looking out for your mates or confidentiality...ask your cousin and friends their definitions of these terms.

[Gruffalo]

I'd like to know where 2stroke got these "snippets" of "fact" about training in Germany. US forces, maybe, Aussie forces, NOT. None of my mates went to Germany. My best bud of 30 years has done 2 front line tours now, and he never went near Germany. He did do some spec training in India, but nowhere near Deutschland. I propose that what you were told is shinola - diversion from truth.

You will find a lot of maladjusted US personnel. Most other nations are less brainwashed and actually come back human. The strategies the US forces use to indoctrinate their troops are well known amongst those who know, and are not necessarily applicable to other allied nations.

[zorkon]

Hey! Get back on topic!

[Miaplacidus]

Have any of you guys seen my pitchfork? I need it for another thread.

Smashing hoedown, by the way. Keep up the good work.

[Miaplacidus]

I look forward to the special mention this thread will no doubt receive in the next IIS mailout. Everybody will be so proud.

Hey, is that a star...?

[Stardrifter_WA]

Two stroke, making snide comments to other's comments makes you look immature. You should be graceful in recognising when you are wrong, as I am. If it is pointed out that my facts are wrong, I simply admit it and am happy to stand corrected, and have done so on a number of occasions on this site.

You are trying to talk from a position of authority when you haven't even walked in those shoes and this just makes you look foolish or like a tool (your word). Until you have walked in those shoes, you know absolutely NOTHING, and furthermore it shows a TOTAL LACK of respect and regard for those that do. They have a difficult job to do, and not one that many are suited for. Yes, war and training does change people, some more than others, and this is sad. Indeed, the need for war is sad.

To talk from a position of authority from what your mates say is mere hearsay which is inadmissible anyway. Given that your friends and relatively may have said something, I doubt very much that they are, or should be, giving you the full facts. If they are, then they are not being very professional, or indeed, you are assuming too much from the little facts they do give you. Most probably because you are accumulating facts from various other sources as well and then trying to pass yourself off as some sort of authority. Or maybe it is just outright BS.

Unfortunately, due to failing the medical, I have never served my country, however, I have personally known many who have through various wars and the one common factor that I have found, most, if not all, do not talk about it, unless they are amongst those that have been there. I have had family who have served and frankly, they will not talk about their experiences, ever. Probably because they would rather just forget, which is something most people cannot do having been through horrible experiences. They most certainly don't want to talk about and I guess relive it.

If you have nothing constructive to contribute, then you should say nothing. And if this isn't possible and you are found to be wrong you should be gracious in defeat.

Frankly you have previously made a snide remark to one of my comments on another thread, and you maybe meant it as humour, which I doubt, but if so, I can assure you, it doesn't come across that way, and I found it quite offensive.

I absolutely defend your rights to your comments, just not when they are odious. I suggest that you read the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie", you just might actually learn something.

I don't know you Two Stroke, you may actually be a nice guy in your own way, but your comments are not helpful, misinformed, misguided or indeed downright rude. If you are trying to live your life vicariously through others, I suggest you go do something where you can then talk from a perspective that you have actually lived. Otherwise you may end up living a sad and pathetic life.

I remember a quote that went something like this; "throw yourself into life, even if you get hurt. Those that try to avoid getting hurt, never amount to much". Having lived a hard life, I quite understand those words, that is, experiences, however hard, is the greatest teacher.

[g__day]

My company has had two of its employees assaulted on trains in the last month. My personal thoughts are folk should definitely give careful consideration how to travel more safely - police can give tips on this - i.e. like traveling in groups where possible is a great idea, late night train trips in deserted carriages to poor locations are not desirable.

At some stage of your life you may be placed in a dangerous situation, its best to pre-plan your options and response. You need to also consider your triggers - how obnoxious or dangerous must a situation be before you will take a decisive action - and how decisive will that be? It is not reliably simple to disarm an armed attacker in a way that is relatively safe for you and doesn't harm the aggressor - that actually takes a lot of training and practice.

At what point do you intervene in a situation and how seriously do you intervene? One has to decide for oneself - courtesy goes a long way - but rudeness does not have to lead to violence. Threaten or enacted violence doesn't have to lead to real harm, but it takes considerable skill, timing and focus to deal with a committed attacker with a dangerous weapon - its probably best to try and flee these situations.

[sheeny]

I think this thread has just about exhausted its usefulness.

Locking the thread.

Al.