telecope for 12 year old

[liss79]

Hi, I'm getting my son a telescope for his 12th birthday and have know idea what to get him. I had know idea that their is such a huge range of different things out their to buy. But a few different sites I found recommended the dobsonians would these be good for him? I was looking at the 8 " one and would he need anything else to go with it? Or if this brand wasn't ok what else would people recommend. As I have know idea where to start. I do want to get him something that is relatively decent though.
Thank you.

[Astro_Bot]

Hi and welcome to IIS.

I'm sure you'll get plenty of opinions, but mine is that an 8" manual/"push-to" Dobsonian is a good choice for a 12 yo:


Simple and relatively unbreakable
Quick to setup, nothing to learn (except the stars) - suited to the short attention span of a 12yo
Good value-for-money
Easy to sell - there're always other begineers looking for a Dobsonian
8" is not too heavy - your son can probably lift it himself
Few if any accessories needed (save eyepieces and maybe star charts and a red torch)
Will last for years without anything wearing out
Enough aperture to grow with him and keep him interested for years


You can get an 8" Dobsonian (or Dob for short) in either solid tube or collapsible "truss tube" styles. For 8", I don't see any need to pay extra for the truss tube, so I'd go with the solid tube style.

There are three brands of Dobsonian easily available: Skywatcher, Saxon and GSO, In my opinion, it's much of a muchness - Skywatcher/Saxon are virtually identical and GSO not much different. Pick whichever one you like.

You'll get a couple of eyepieces and these will do to start with, but after a while, you/he may want to get slightly better/more eyepieces - that's another discussion entirely and not that important right now.

There's free planetarium software you can download - Stellarium - and it's easy to use - well suited to a beginner.

For outside use, a book of star charts and a cheap red torch (or a torch with a few layers of red cellophane over it) will also be useful. There are plenty of books he can also read suited to beginning astronomy, but I'll leave that to others as I don't have any myself.

Hope this helps.

[niko]

Yep - 8" dob and the eyepieces that come with it will be a great gift

[Deeno]

8" Dob sounds like pretty good advise to me. Minutes to set up and use.
Scopes on equatorial mounts can be a bit of a chore to set up and the average twelve year old might lose interest....

Good aperture for the price. Only thing extra you will need is something to collimate the mirrors (align), cheshire or laser collimator. Maybe a red light torch to preserve your night vision and some star charts.

http://www.andysshotglass.com/Collimating.html

http://www.skymaps.com

This comes out every year
http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories/Books--Charts-and-Software/Astronomy-2013/1480/productview.aspx

http://www.stellarium.org/

Avoid department store scopes as they tend to be toys....

A couple of places to check out
http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Dobsonian/Bintel-BT202-B-8--Dobsonian/72/productview.aspx

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-content-section-10-skywatcher.htm#dobsonian

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-content-section-10-guansheng.htm#dobsonian

They usually come with a few eyepieces to get you going.

I'm sure others will chime in with their point of view.

Good Luck!

[ausastronomer]

Yep an 8" dob is great starter scope for a 12yr old. Importantly, he will get a good few years out of it, before he needs to go bigger.

Cheers,
John B

[narky]

I'm less astronomer and more a 12 year old at heart.

If he has a great interest in astronomy/space/something similiar I'd certainly recommend the dob as its the best way to check out the sky for the price.

But if he just wants a telescope because he thinks they're cool, I'd recommend a refracting telecscope.

They never need maintenance/alignment and they can also be used in the daytime to check out anything.

My 12 year old neighbour has zero interest in checking things out at night, but he bugs me almost every weekend if he can borrow my scope to see what the neighbours down the street might be doing.

(I should add, i bought the refracting telescope for pretty much the same reason). Daytime usage is a big bonus

Cons, not much light collecting on a refracting scope. I can't see nebula (which you can make out pretty clearly on a 8" dob), but great for viewing planets/moon.

[Suzy]

Oh yes most definitely the 8" dob as others have said. :)

Astro_bot that was a brilliant post. :thumbsup:
You should consider bookmarking it and using it again in the future. :D

Make sure you check out the sky maps link Deeno gave- it's a great site.

Oh! Nearly forgot- :welcome: liss79. That's an awesome thing you're doing for your son and I'm sure you will both get great enjoyment from observing the night skies together.

[Steffen]

Another vote for the 8" Dob :thumbsup: My son got one for his 13th, too :D

Regarding the anything else bit, those Dobs come with all the necessary accessories to get him started. Beyond that the sky is the limit and he'll find plenty of things to spend his pennies on (like with any other hobby).

In hindsight (having bought one myself way too late), the first accessory I would recommend buying is a height-adjustable observing chair. The difference this makes to what you can see through the telescope is much bigger than the difference between the included eyepieces and some $300+ eyepieces (which for many beginners are the first accessories they lust for).

Cheers
Steffen.

[pmrid]

Yep, a Dob is fine. But make sure it comes with a decent finder scope and that you get the finder aligned with the main scope BEFORE your son gets his first look. The reason is that Dobs, by their nature, are not all that easy to point for someone who is just starting. So a small finder scope will make sure he is in the right area and does not have any initial negative experiences having problems finding what he wants to see. Most dobs do have finders, but straight out of the box, you'll have to align it yourself. The easiest way is to set the dob up in daylight and see if you can point it at some distant terrestrial object - the tip of a church steeple, a telephone pole - whatever - and then use the adjusting screws on the finder to bring it onto the same object. Then, you're in business.
Peter

[Steffen]

Good point about the finder. Out of the box, the GSO/Bintel Dobs have the better finder scopes (compared to the SkyWatcher/Saxon ones).

Cheers
Steffen.

[Rod]

I agree with the recommendations of an 8 inch dob. I would add a telrad or quikfinder:

http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories/Finderscopes/Telrad/491/productview.aspx

I think they are much easier to use and align than an optical finder. They are easy to add to the scope later as they just stick on with double sided tape.

When I was a beginner I found aiming the scope to be a real pain. A telrad made a big difference. The quikfinder is the the same idea, just a bit smaller and lighter.

Rod.

[The Mekon]

This is the best advice posted so far. Sorry but an 8" Dob is not always the right choice for a budding young astronomer.

[GeoffW1]

I agree,

It would have the potential to put him off with the need for collimation, which was the reason I decided to try a refractor next. And I'm far from young :(

What about the SW102 with AZ mount currently for sale here in IIS? I'd call that ideal for a first scope.

Cheers

[ausastronomer]

My son could collimate a 10" Newtonian very proficiently at 9 years of age. He could also align and use the Argo Navis Digital Telescope Computer very proficiently at the same 9 years of age. The only reason he couldn't do either of these things at 8 years of age was that I didn't show him until he was 9. :lol:

Why recommend someone a telescope which will provide dim disappointing detail less views compared to an 8" Newtonian.

If the only telescope I was allowed to have was a 4" refractor, to be honest I would probably find something else to spend my time on, other than astronomy, because I would find the views very uninteresting and boring. Where do you see the queues at Star parties, behind 4" refractors or 18" dobs?

If it's for imaging then it's a whole new ball game.

An 8" dob isn't too big for him to handle and he's growing bigger not smaller. Collimation isn't very difficult and takes about 2 minutes at the start of a session. The views in the 8" dob will be vastly superior in every respect to those provided by a small refractor, or as I call them, "a toy telescope".

Cheers,
John B

[narky]

That's the scope I have and its awesome. Would recommend for a 12yr old. It's light and movable, easy to aim and use, and can be used in the daytime.

[dannat]

I know some could collimate a reflector but a 90mm f11 or 100mm refractor on altaz mount can serve use as a daytime scope also (avoid the cheap EQ mounts) & need next to no maintainance

A good pair of binoculars can also be a good choice for kids.

My 12 yr old has a bit of trouble moving around a 8", less so a 6" dob-it's a tad liter

[Deeno]

My father and I both had an interest in astronomy and purchased a small refractor when I was about twelve or so (he still has it). We looked at the Moon through it and the planets were pretty...well...uninspiring. And that was about it.

It wasn't until almost thirty years later when I had the opportunity to have a view through a twenty inch dob that reignited the desire the small refractor extinguished....

[norm]

Hi,

I'd concur with an 8" inch dob. Collimating is nor here nor there. I'm sure there would be locals in Mackay whom could show you how. The other thing to consider is if no one in the family has an iPhone, ipad or I touch, If so consider purchasing Sky Safari - it's great for understanding the night sky for navigating, not to mention the educational aspect of it.


Good luck :)

Norm

[narky]

Its awesome because:

Its light, but still functional.
It's easy to point,
It's maintenance free.
It has the added bonus of being used in daytime.

Important things to consider given this is for a kid to use.

The dob isn't as light. It isn't as easy to point, and it isn't maintenace free.

Why would me using a lot of scopes change any of these facts? :sadeyes:

That said I've been to a few star parties and looked through enough scopes to pick out something for a 12 year old. If someone said "I want to build my own observatory", well I'd certainly stay out of that thread.

Add to that that I did clarify my statement by saying "I'm more 12 year old than astronomer." I really wanted the OP to think about what the kid would want.

The kid may care more about being able to use and set it up himself.
He may have other interests/activities that might mean a daytime scope would be handy. Or maybe he'd be better off with a great set of binoculars. Perhaps he just thinks a telescope would look cool in his room (and dobs really aren't sexy).

I just wanted to remind the father that responses here are more aimed towards "what is the best way to view the cosmos", and its important to consider there are other factors that will greatly influence whether this scope is ever used or not.

[skysurfer]

I'd rather say: buy a small refractor such as this Skywatcher 10cm Startravel[/ur]. Ok, less aperture but far more convenient to handle and *really* maintenance free. No collimation hassle (for a 12 year old boy it can be a hassle). No such things as 'Daddy, can you bring the telescope outside' or 'Daddy, can you collimate the scope, I see fishes instead of stars'.
I have a friend (a well experienced astrophotographer) with a 13 year old son who has a simple [url=http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Dobsonian/Orion-Sky-Scanner-100mm/1007/productview.aspx]10cm tabletop Dobson (http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Refractor/SkyWatcher-SW102/140/productview.aspx) and is very happy with it.

[The Mekon]

[QUOTE=ausastronomer;973315]Geoff,

I am not getting personal, I am being accurate and truthful and I have no doubt that my comments above are 100% correct.

Having been involved in astronomy for just over 40 years; having used over 300 different telescopes including some of the best amateur telescopes on the planet which range from 50mm refractors to 36" dobs, to 20 " Classical Cassegrains, to 15" refractors; and owning one of the best telescopes on the planet 14"/F4.5 SDM (Zambuto Optics), I can pass on the following information.

I have seen a lot of people come and go from astronomy over those 40 years.


John,

We must get together sometime, and debate our contrary views! I also have been in the game for over 40 years (47 to be precise!) I have seen first or even second scope 8" dobs lie gathering dust in garages.
And I still reckon my 130EDT is in many ways a better scope than my 18" SDM! I hope to have them both together at the SPSP.

[Larryp]

I've tried all sorts of scopes over a period of 30 years, and I now have a 90mm apo refractor, and love it! No maintenance, easy to set up and wonderful views, and manageable for my ageing body.
The best scope I ever owned was an A-P 155EDT refractor, and I would back it for image quality against anything-the most perfect scope I ever had the privilege to look through.
People say small refractors are limited in what you can observe, but they are not taking into account its advantage over any other design of scope-contrast. I find I can see a huge range of objects from my heavily light polluted backyard because of that superior contrast.:)

[Satchmo]

Thats a pretty big claim .I look forward to look at your setup at SPSP . It would be interesting - assuming your telescopes are cooled , collimated and optics sitting properly to compare some easy and difficult objects at the same exit pupil on each scope .If you are serious about comparisons , you could make sure your optics are clean and relatively dust free.

[moonunit]

Skip the 8" dob, go straight to the 12, not much of a price difference, plus it's his 12th birthday not his 8th.

[Jen]

Haha I like the way your of thinking can you be my dad lol lol :lol: I just turned 40 so can I have a 40" SDM :P

[mithrandir]

Good thinking Jen. Is somebody giving away 60" SDMs or Obsessions?

[Jen]

:rofl::rofl:

[2stroke]

Lol i think you guys think more from your perspective then a 12yr olds, next year its something new, buy him a basic 100mm refactor because it will wind up in the back of the closest 2 weeks later. At that age i wanted an rc plane, the next year it was a kx80 2stroke gahaha and by the time i was 16 a suzuki PE 400cc 2 stroke w00t w00t screw your nerdy scopes.

Its only now my inner geek has came out of the clostest :)

[norm]

Hi Liss79,

Are you still around and taking notes...... :rofl:

Once you get your scope get your son to read these threads so he know's what can of worms mum has opened up and hopefully he may appreciate the efforts you made into your research :)........

As you can see we have a bunch of passionate, opinionated folks out here.

Seriously, I hope this doesn't deter you from getting him a scope :(


Norm

[jjjnettie]

When I bought my boys their telescope, a 60mm refractor on an alt azi mount, they enjoyed it, for about a week. All we could really see were the Moon, Saturn and a few of the brighter nebulae.
Skip forward a year, the kids are a little older and we upgraded to a 10" Dob. The kids loved it. They could use it on their own, there were no knobs to loosen and tighten if you wanted to move to another object.
And those faint fuzzies were so bright compared to the little refractor.
They have since lost interest in the hobby sadly. But if I had my time over, I would have bought the Dobsonian first off.

[barx1963]

I didn't weigh into this thread as I am REALLY busy at the moment. I am alway happy to recommend an 8" dob for beginners for anumber of reasons,
1 I had one and it was brilliant. Easy to setup, easy to find stuff (I managed nearly the entire Messier list that were visible in my sky in the time I had it along with over 100 other objects.)
2 They are easy to handle. I know that it would not have been a problem when I was 12!
3 Collimation is not that hard. In fact on mine I checked it the first day, never touched it again, each time I checked it was OK. Sometimes we get all het up about collimation. I would challenge any but the most experienced observer to detect the difference in views in an 8" between a perfectly collimated one and on a bit out. I did a test a while back on my 12". Colimated it did some observing and then deliberately knocked out of alignment. I really had to muck it around to make a significantly noticeable difference.
I honestly think we do a disservice to novices scaring them with tales about needing to get collimation perfect. The best thing for an new observer, get it pretty close and get out and use the scope!! Once they decide they are hooked then there is plenty of time to learn the fine points of collimation.
4 As John has said the optics for the price are pretty good. I am sure there are some duds out there, but I haven't seen any. And again, a mirror would need to be pretty seriously bad for a beginner to even notice. The most important thing is not wasting time worrying about collimation, or whether a mirror is 1/12 or 1/10 wave, but get out and observe!!

As a final point, come on guys!! As I said in a previous thread, we need to develop a bit of respect for OPs. Someone has come here looking for advice and ideas. Respect the OP! Especially in a beginners thread.

Malcolm

[ngcles]

Hi All,

I too have been involved in amateur astronomy for more than 40 years and there is some good advice with differing opinions in this thread. There is also quite a bit of mis-information about optics, aberrations and the value of aperture and therefore light-grasp and resolution of detail. One thing I'm sure we will all agree on is that there is no single, simple answer as to which is the best choice. For what it is worth, I agree with the idea of the 8" Dobsonian mounted Newtonian, simply because the telescope is generally uncomplicated and offers a very significant advantage in light-grasp over a smaller refractor. While the small refractor does offer advantages with daytime viewing and its low-maintenance, the plain facts of life are that in comparing a 10cm refractor with a 20cm newtonian, the images in the Newtonian will be four times brighter (it will also therefore see things 4x fainter) and will resolve detail twice as well as the smaller refractor if the optics are well collimated. It will need a bit of maintenance like aligning the mirrors occasionally and cleaning them gently from time-to-time. Though collimating telescopes can look frightening, it is no more difficult or time-consuming than tuning a guitar once you have become proficient. The Newtonian will be a bit heavier and bulky to move around, but really, not that bad.

The only thing I would add liss, is that if you live somewhere near an astronomical society, a visit to one of their meetings might result in an offer to allow you to look through several different 'scopes and you can make a more informed choice after a bit of a "test-drive". One hopes if you do that, that the individuals at that society won't carry on like a pork-chop as we have seen some people here.

Very best of luck with your choice. Please don't be put off by the petty squabbling you have seen here.I think there a few people here who need to go and take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves whether they have made a worthwhile contribution to this legitimate simple inquiry about a gift to a budding amateur astronomer.

Best,

Les D

[iceman]

I've cleaned this thread up and deleted a bunch of posts.
Please don't be offended if your post was deleted. I will not be PM'ing anyone whose post was deleted.
The squabbling was not appropriate and most of the information was certainly not appropriate for a newcomer asking about a scope for a 12 year old.
A beginners thread isn't the place to have these sort of arguments about the which scope is best and who's been observing for the longest time.

For everyone who complained about the thread, not a single person reported the thread or any posts until this morning when Alex did.

Moderators simply DO NOT and CAN NOT read every single post or thread on IceInSpace. We rely on the community to report posts that they think cross a boundary or are getting out of hand.

[ausastronomer]

Another good choice for a 12 year old is the Orion Starblast 6 for $379. If the budget stretches to $579 the Orion Starblast 6i Intelliscope, would be a better choice. They are both the same basic 6"/F5 Tabletop dobs. The 6i model has the same "push to" Intelliscope Computer the larger scopes have, but in a more compact package. They both have a parabolic mirror, which is important.

Here they are advertised on the Bintel website. (http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Dobsonian/33/catmenu.aspx)

Both these scopes are the same except for the push to computer object locator. They should have the capability to run to between 250X and 300X on the moon and planets which is ideal for those targets. They have a decent aperture of 6", so they can bring in quite a few of the brighter DSO's and do a decent job on them as well as the moon and planets, yet still very small and light being a table top scope and only about 75cm long.

Whilst these scopes don't have quite the same optical performance as an 8" dob, they are a lot smaller and more portable to store and handle for a 12 year old. They will outperform a 4" achromatic refactor on all types of targets.

If you wished to go with a small refractor so that it could double as a terrestrial scope, I would recommend the Meade Star Navigator 102 (http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Refractor/Meade-StarNavigator-102/1290/productview.aspx) which has a focal ratio of F7.7 and the capability to run to over 150X on the moon and planets, but is restricted by its smaller aperture and is limited in its ability to view Deep Sky Targets

Another reasonable choice would be this 90mm/F10 refractor (http://www.ozscopes.com.au/saxon-909az3-refractor-telescope.html) advertised on the Ozscopes website. This is similar to the 4" Meade in that it will go to 150X on the moon and planets, but is restricted by its smaller aperture and is limited in its ability to view Deep Sky Targets.

If you wanted a telescope that was very good as a telescope for viewing terrestrial targets due to its portability, with a limited capability as an astronomical telescope, due to its inability to go much past 100X on the basis that is a 4"/F5 achromat and also limited in its ability to view DSO's due to its small 4" aperture, then the SW102 would be a good choice (http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Refractor/SkyWatcher-SW102/140/productview.aspx). As mentioned in the description on the Bintel website, this telescope is proposed predominantly as a Terrestrial based telescope, with the capability to do some astronomy; and IMO this is pretty accurate description of its capabilities.

Cheers,
John B

[astroron]

John, it looks like the 6" model has now been withdrawn from Bintel.
Cheers

[ausastronomer]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for alerting me to this problem. It was just a bad link I posted. I have fixed it.

Here are both scopes linked separately:-

Starblast 6 for $379 (http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Dobsonian/Orion-StarBlast-6--br-/1490/productview.aspx)

Starblast 6i with Intelliscope Computer for $579 (http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Dobsonian/Orion-StarBlast-6i-IntelliScope/1559/productview.aspx)

Both telescopes are still available in Australia.

Cheers,
John B

[tlgerdes]

Whatever you get, don't just give it and walk away.

The fun with this hobby is the sharing. When you are out at night in your backyard by yourself as 12yo, the fun wears off after about 30mins.

If you are sitting out there with him, enjoying it, (or appearing to enjoy it) he will get so much more pleasure.

My father gave my son (7yo at the time) an ETX125. We had great times outside together, learning how it works, and viewing objects.

[Logieberra]

I love my little Meade ETX90. I have the original RA model. It was my first 'serious' scope, purchased used from a quaint optics store in Durango, Colorado in 1998. Ultra portable, very sharp views of the moon and planets and an attractive unit. It stores away easily and will take up minimal room. After 15yrs, it's still with me. It is also a great terrestrial scope for daytime use. If the young fella loses interest in the hobby, a dob will be quite a nuisance to store. Call the knowledgeable guys at Bintel - Syd or Melb - they will look after you :)