Dead beginner - which scope for portability?

[Auto]

Hey guys,
I've been reading for a bit but now I need some advice.
Im beginning to understand more and more about focal length and diameter etc.

And I see everyone reccomending Dobs. But ive seen them and they dont seem like a portable option.

Reason I ask is I live in a high density area with not much room to move. I would be wanting take it up to a lookout like Mt Cootha, or even throw it in the back of the truck when i go out bush camping (which is faily often). Also I plan on keeping it for a while and using it for when i own a bit of acreage out west in the distant future (will probably upgrade by then anyway).

But I dont want to be spending more than $400. I dont want something that im going to get frustrated with. And I dont want something too massively bulky so that I can transport it with minimal worries.
Im a big bulky guy so i can handle carrying something weighty but it would be embarassing lugging this big thing up to Mt Cootha in front of everyone. That would just look silly.

Any suggestions please?

Thanks :)

[barx1963]

Tim
unfortunately for a budget of $400,anything much other than Dobs are going to lead to frustration. You will be getting small aperture newts often on a "wobble tonic" EQ mount.
Dobs give good aperture at a low cost. An 8" is easily portable. Having said that you are not going to be taking trekking, you still need a car.

Malcolm

[simmo]

Gday Auto,

Maybe this might be a little left field of what your thinking but do you own a good pair of binos?

Easy to take camping with you and totally practical if you need to walk somewhere.

Refractor like optics and you get to use both eyes as well.

I started my journey in astronomy by looking through my dads binos last year a few times while we were out fishing and its what got me hooked. They were just ordinary binos nothing like the astro ones either.

This may sound funny but the other night I was out with my dob and I was looking through my finderscope (which is straight through 8 x 50) and thinking to my self wow these views are great. At the same time I also really felt like I had missed some progression by not starting off with something a little smaller and appreciating the bigger picture. Kind of like the saying " you can't see the forest from the trees" if you know what I mean.

Anyway good luck and I hope you find something.

Cheers
Simmo ;)

[ZeroID]

Hey Tim, :welcome: to IIS.
Good advice on the binos, I've got a pair of 12 x 50's and 10 x 50s and they're both used a lot. Hiking out will give you dark skies so you will be surprised at just how effective they are. Also they won't embarras you.

My 'Grab & Go' is an Skywatcher 80mm f5 Refractor, used by many as a guidescope. That and a photo tripod mount, 2 EPS and a dark sky will give quite amazing views and still be useable even in the suburbs. Be quite a bit heavier and cumbersome than binos but a lot less than an 8" Dob. There are several brands, Orion, Meade etc etc all the same spec ( and same factory I think) and price is wihinm your budget. Check out the Bintel website for package deals new. You may not need the supplied mount or it could be useful at home. They have

Just another idea

[Auto]

Not really a fan of binos tbh. What about a 6" dob?
When I go camping I have the car with me so it's no worries to whip it out at the campsite.
And the path to the lookout I plan on going to is only 20 metres paved so it's not like I'm going bush.
But I don't want to look silly carrying this big thing with me.
How big are Dobs anyway? From pics they look massive! And what's the weight like?

[AstralTraveller]

Easily cured!! Wear rabbit ears and a tutu. No one will notice the scope.

Seriously though, no one has ever suggested I look silly carrying a scope about. It's about attitude. Look confident and everyone will think you are incredibly knowledgeable. And the bigger the tube the more complicated it looks and the more brainy you appear. Just don't let on that the contents of the tube is 99% air.

BTW don't forget that small dobs scopes are often about the same length, they just get fatter. The average 15cm is f/8 so focal length is 120cm, most 20cm are f/6 (also 120cm) and 25cm are generally f/4.5 to f/5 (again about 120cm). I mention this because often the tube length is the limiting factor (eg width of the back seat of your car). The light gathering power of those three scopes are in the ratio 36:64:100, so there are real advantages in bigger aperture. I've got a 25cm GSO dobs. I put a handle on the tube and I can carry it in one hand (and I'm not even a former strongman).

[simmo]

If your after the best views for $ then the dob will be your best bet. Now that your info is a little clearer then a dob will still be practical for where you plan to go for sure.

Not sure what type of car you have but the limiting factor I had was the base of the scope. I have a ten so I'm not sure about a 6 or 8" scope. I couldn't fit it in a subaru liberty boot and had too place it upside down on my ota (with lots of padding) with the passenger seat pushed forward.

As for feeling embarrased about your scope that will soon go out the door the first time you get a decent look through. People will look with amusement at what your doing but they are also blown away when you show them Jupiter or the moon close up! Good way to meet people.

Best thing now is too head to your local astro shop and check it out for real. Most shops will have a floor model so that you can have a look at what you'll be getting.

Cheers
Simmo ;)

[The Mekon]

Forget the Dob. Buy a 70mm or 80mm short focal length refractor. Put it on a photo tripod if you have one. You will be amazed at what you can see. And NO frustrations!

[Auto]

Ive jst been googling the size of these 8 inch dobs and theyre enormous!
Something a big guy would struggle to sling over his shoulder?
Whats the weight of these things.

Looking at the $400 one from bintek or whatever theyre called.

I have a Patrol with no back seats so plenty of room for it ;)
just dont know about portability and lugging one of these things around...

[Auto]

I mean Bintel. The Dobs look great but im just stressing about forking out that money and not being able to use it to its best ability cos im confined to a built up area.
I got no problems with taking it out camping with me cos its just me and the dog with an esky and double swag in the back with a few bits and pieces.

The lookout carpark is literally 20m from the lookout along a tiled pathway. But I just dont want to look like a knob rocking up with my massive telescope thats really only meant to be used at home etc.

I cant say ive seen anyone gettin around with one of these things in public...

[Curt]

Ha ha ha. Mate I was the same as you. I always thought what l looked like carry this dob around in public. Now it has consumed my life and l absolutely love it. My wife calls me a nerd, my friends think I'm a nerd, I know m a nerd. Don't be shy mate get amongst it, it will change your life, and your bank balance.

[rogerco]

Tim, I only have the use of one hand, I put a strap around my 8" dob and I can lift it out of the base with one hand. The tube is just tin, its fairly light but has a mirror at one end that weighs maybe two kilos. As someone else said in an ordinary car the base is the problem but in a 4WD no problem it will fit in the back easy. I also have a ED80, the other telescope that would fit your budget. I have tried it on a good photo tripod, it was not the best as photo tripods are not designed for the weight nor the long focal length and as a result the don't mone all that slowly. You want to see things and show other people things. Find someone else who has one close to you and drop by and use a dob and you will be hooked.

[Auto]

Seems you have me convinced guys.

What do you think of this?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OZScopes-8-Dobsonian-Telescope-FREE-6-3mm-eyepiece-/310513875082?pt=AU_Cameras_Telescop es_Binoculars&hash=item484c11b88a

Seems it doesnt come with the different eye pieces etc but its in my price range just....

Otherwise the Bintel one is $500 and i dont really wanna spend that kind of money. $400 would be maximum delivered....

Suggestions?

[atman]

Hi Tim,

I agonized for months about whether to take the plunge. ( I got the Bintel 8" Dob about 6 weeks ago.) The first thing I saw was Jupiter and it's moons - and knew then I'd done the right thing.

A friend then pointed out that I had only bought half a scope.(Eyepieces being the other half.) Bintel's scope comes with 3 ok eyepieces.

Three weeks later I went back and gave them another $129 for a Televue 3x barlow lens - this effectively gives me 5 different magnifications.

I just bought a pair of 15x70 binoculars - nice easy way to look at the sky.

Curt is spot on about the bank balance thing.

My wife likes me having a scope because it allows her to watch all her crappy TV shows in peace - because I'm outside looking at reality.:lol:

Now the really hard part is going to stay disciplined for the next 12 months and not go and buy a 16" goto dob.

[Scorpius51]

It comes with a 25mm, 10mm and 6.3mm. The 6.3mm will be near useless, though!

Buy some 10x50mm or 10x70mm bins. You can use them anywhere, for everything!

[The Mekon]

I love that line - Exactly my experience!

[madbadgalaxyman]

See the previous thread in this forum entitled "Semi-beginner semi-first scope advice" for another discussion of size & practicality & ease of use, vs. the performance, for various telescopes. This thread also discusses options for instruments smaller than the "standard beginners' recommendation" of an 8 or 10 inch Dobsonian.

Other recent threads comparing various telescopes are:
"12 inch Dob"
"Recommendations for a beginner telescope"

A lot of these threads say that while it is nice to have a 4 inch telescope for extreme portability, the deep sky performance of this aperture is very limited....... You end up looking at the same few objects all the time, if you are using a four inch telescope in a light polluted sky.

Consider a 5-6 inch Schmidt-Cassegrain as having the smallest aperture which is suitable for any kind of serious work, and furthermore this is an extremely compact design. Six inch Dobsonians are also smallish telescopes.
Some people start with a four or five inch refractor, and these are also OK, but any telescope up to 6 inches in aperture can soon become rather boring for an adult beginner. (hence the standard recommendation of an 8 inch Dob)

A 4 or 5 inch refractor, 5 or 6 inch Schmidt-Cassegrain, or a 6 inch Dobsonian, is a good "grab and go" telescope because of its portability and modest size, but people very soon find themselves needing at least an 8 inch Dobsonian for serious Deep Sky viewing.

[madbadgalaxyman]

High Quality binos add a lot of fun and enjoyment to observing.
It is important to get a pair of binos with very good anti-reflection coatings on the various lenses, as the complexity of the optical train means that a cheap poorly-coated pair of binos gives far worse views of the night sky.
It gets tiring to look through "the narrow porthole" of a telescopic view, and the best antidote is to stretch out on an airmattress and scan the skies using a good pair of binos.

While many people recommend 7x50 binos, in reality it is worth putting up with the extra vibration to get 10x50s, as 10x50s actually give much better views. (Some of us have learnt to hold and use lightweight binos up to 70mm in aperture, while lying on an airmattress, but it takes some practice to use these big binoculars without excessive vibration......some people never manage to do it)

[madbadgalaxyman]

Actually, for a lot of people who are not physically very strong (smaller nerdy guys, some women, etc.) or for people who have bad backs, it is the much larger weight and volume which are the real problem with the bigger telescopes, rather than the actual length of the telescope.

The large increase in telescope weight for a relatively modest increase in telescope aperture....... has been discussed in previous threads in this forum.

While a 10 inch telescope may not be that long, it is usually rather heavy and also large in volume, so for most people it qualifies as a physically big scope (with the odd exception)
A 12 inch telescope is always a large and heavy object.

For this reason, beginners are often recommended to go no bigger than an 8 inch Dobsonian, as the 10s and 12s are harder to use and to move.

[AstralTraveller]

Robert,

I think calling the difference between an 8" and a 10" 'a relatively modest increase in telescope aperture' is quite misleading. We both know that a 10" collects 1.56x more light than an 8" and I wouldn't call that a modest increase - it's over half a magnitude. I accept your point about weight and volume but I also understand that often the limiting factor is width of the back seat or length of the tray in a crew-cab ute. To put the weight issue in perspective, my wife is about 5' 6" and can carry our 10" dobs tube without too many problems. Also that self-confessed short-arse from Swan Hill, Jen, now has a 12" dobs.

[madbadgalaxyman]

Sorry, AstralTraveller, I actually didn't mean in my post that the difference in light gathering power between an 8 inch and a 10 inch is modest. I had both an 8 inch and a 10 inch for years, and I well know that the jump between 8 and 10 is significant for deep sky viewing. In fact, I wouldn't recommend anything under 10 inches for viewing galaxies, as galaxies have "a certain sameness" when viewed in an 8 inch.

There are people I know who do find the 8 inch Dobs a lot more "luggable" than the 10 inch Dobs, so I guess it all depends on the person and their requirements......
for instance, now that I am an older bloke and "my back goes out more than I do", my perspective on what is a moveable telescope has changed somewhat!!

There seems to be a split between those experienced amateurs who recommend an 8 inch Dob for a beginner and those who recommend a 10 inch Dob. This indicates to me that there are arguments for both of these options.
But I don't think any of us would think much of apertures under 6 inches for general Deep Sky and Planetary viewing by beginners, except for those extremist "refractor fanatics" who regularly crop up in these forums and who insist that their 4 inch Apo Refractor is all that they need.....but then this is hardly a mainstream view!

Best Regards,
Robert

In the 1980s, I used to have a 10 inch F6 Newt in a heavy iron tube, on a beautifully machined and very heavy german equatorial mount. I cut it down to F4, so that the tube could fit on the back seat of a small car!

[Wavytone]

Robert, the choice comes down to a 7" Mak or 8" SCT if you want something easily portable for general viewing but it comes with some compromises in terms of what you can see.

If you are really interested in deep sky stuff (galaxies) you need to step up to at least a 10" ... 13" dob, though the price is size and weight.

The smaller grab 'n go refractors eg 4" f/7 are more for those who

a) only need a small travel scope to observe very specific objects or events, such as a solar/lunar eclipses where a big scope is pointless, or a comet;

b) need a scope that can travel easily, quite possibly with a car ful of family and other luggage, or by plane; and

c) invariably have a larger scope at home for the deep sky stuff.