F-35 Jet Fighters

[solissydney]

I saw 2 F-35's twice yesterday morning flying over Fagan Park in Sydney.
Quite a sight.

[Astroman]

That would have been a sight, anyone get any pics?

[solissydney]

I had my model plane in the air at the time.
All happened too quickly.

[tlgerdes]

Were the ones you saw, models as well?

[Astro_Bot]

That would have been quite a sight - I think it more likely they were F22's coming here for the 2013 Australian International Airshow at Avalon, 1-3 March:

http://www.airshow.com.au/airshow2013/public-airshow/index.html

F22's are scheduled to make an appearance there.

The F35's aren't in service yet, and won't be for a few years. This week's 4 Corners was an expose of alleged problems with the F35 program.

[TrevorW]

Did anyone see the program re the JSF being overpriced and under powered and our Govt will probably still commit to buy them

[Astro_Bot]

Funnily enough, yes, as mentioned in the post above yours! ;)

4 Corners link: http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/

[LewisM]

We don't need the JSF/F-35, AT ALL! It CANNOT meet the specification criteria, in most respects.

Heck, best bang for the buck and EXCEPTIONALLY capable is the SU27 or Su30. Wouldn't that mke the Yanks pay attention if we ordered them instead of the F-35 :)

Doesn't matter though - we'll eventually have an Air Force like New Zealand. Air Farce.

[Astro_Bot]

I've thought the same myself - buy Su27 (or is that Su35 these days) airframes and engines (which aren't that costly) and fit with western avionics and weapons. It would be time-consuming and expensive (but then the JSF is both of those anyway), and, IMVHO, it would be no more of a technical risk.

But, the time to do that seems to have come and gone.

On a related topic, I've wondered for a decade now why we wanted the JSF at all. I though the RAAF fighter mission was air superiority over Australia and its maritime approaches, and a reasonable maritime strike capability (not necessarily in the same aircraft, and the F-111s did deliver a pretty good maritime strike capability, AFAIK). Why the enormous emphasis on ground attack now, forcing a decision for the JSF? Am I missing something?

Edit: I suppose I should add that at the same time I thought of the Su27/35-derived aircraft, I also thought we should also get a couple of squadrons of F22s (if the Yanks agreed to sell them) - with attrition and training units, that would be 30-35 F22s.

[ausastronomer]

Yes, Political agendas and vote harvesting :)

Cheers,
John B

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

I hate the thought of these things. With all due respect to Matt's friend, I consider it is the latest example in Oz of buying exorbitantly expensive weapons we don't really need, like Abrams tanks. The F-35A version is reported to now cost US$107 million each without an engine. It appears we might get our initial order of 2 by 2020, instead of 2014.

Argh

[Astro_Bot]

Again? (See posts #6 and #8). :shrug: ;)

[LewisM]

I miss all the fun. Someone having a dig at Dillard or Abbott & Costello? :)

[FlashDrive]

I watched 4 Corners the other Monday night with interest....( being an Ex Military Aircraft Engineer F111-C and P3B Orion Aircraft. ) .....I noted what was said years ago ...software problems have ' plagued ' this Aircraft's performance envelope to the point.....countries are pulling out of ' contracts ' signed ....and I don't blame them.

It's performance at ' sign up time ' was stated much more above what the Aircraft is capable of at the moment .... in other words ....the Aeroplane is not doing or flying at the ' stated ' spec's it was designed to fulfil for its customers.

It's a bit like you buying a Ferrari ... but they have ' de tuned ' it ...and it now runs like a V8 Holden.

The Aircraft's ' envelope ' ...( flying threshold/ performance) has been greatly compromised because they are dealing with ' software issues ' .....getting the Aircraft's computers to ' talk ' to each other when the pilot inputs a request.... things are just not happening as they expected.

This Aircraft has an ' all digital ... touch screen ' cockpit....just like your Android or Windows based Tablet......no analogue stuff in sight....it's often called a ' glass cockpit ' ...but with touch screen capabilities.

This Aeroplane is basically a ' flying computer ' encased in an airframe, coupled to a jet engine....and a seat in it ...for someone to sit.

Another thing ...nothing was ever mentioned whether the Aircraft's ' Avionics ' or Weapons delivery Systems are ' hardened ' against ' emp ' ...( electro-magnetic- pulse ) ...in the event of a Nuclear Exchange.
If it isn't ( but I suspect it is ) ....the JSF35 will drop like a stone.

It started out at $45mill to build .... now it's $107mill' each ...and Australia has ordered 100 of them. :shrug:

IMHO ....We cannot afford that... it takes 3 times the ' purchase price ' to maintain each Aircraft for the duration of it's life of service.

Credit to the original photographers.

Flash..!!

[LewisM]

We don't need the F35. We don't need the F22. Let's get some common sense - I know, rare in politics - and buy something we can AFFORD.

More F/A-18's - both the standard and Super variety. Commonality. IT's a McDD airframe - it'll last forever.

Keep thinking an Su-30 would look exquisite with red roo roundels on the side, and 3 Sqn markings :)

[Astro_Bot]

Actually, there's not much commonality between F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornet and the E/F Super Hornet - they kinda look alike, but that's about it - something like only 20% of parts are the same. Also, the fatigue life of out Hornet airframes is a major issue, so replacement to maintain a number of airworthy airframes was required.

The production line for original Hornets is closed, so only the E/F Super Hornet is purchasable as a complete aircraft, though there are rumours of re-starting production for some critical parts (and that may have happened already).

[Astro_Bot]

Thay would look awesome ... and probably perform pretty darn well, too.

I was reading today what the Indian Air Force has been doing with the Su30MKI variant. If we were to adapt in a similar way for our use and maybe add semi-stealth coatings (as might have been applied to the proposed F15 "Silent Eagle" program) than we might have something pretty good. An Su30MKAu?

[LewisM]

IAF recently kicked USAF butt in SU30 vs F15... :)

[leinad]

source?

[Astro_Bot]

I had a quick google, and the only thing I could find was this account of the Red Flag '08 exercise:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2008/11/usaf-pilot-describes-iaf-su30m.html

Although it sounds surprisingly candid, the presenter clearly states at the beginning that nothing he says is classified.

[leinad]

Yeah I remember that, certainly was controversial.
Another argument in that case was the Indian pilots weren't exactly veterans and were still becoming accustomed to the aircraft.
They certainly didn't take the yanks comments lightly.

An interesting case is India's recent further interest in the Rafale to replace it's ageing Mirage fleet. Maybe this will boost Australian DOD to further back the F-35 if India does commit later in the year?

A long time to wait for the Fluff-35. Who knows, maybe the US will scrap the program considering their state of affairs :(
Unlikely, but would certainly throw a big spanner in the works.

[LewisM]

Here's another: http://www.indiadefence.com/COPE.htm

The USAF video interviews about it are rather...interesting :)

[FlashDrive]

For those who want to see the Four Corners programme about the F-35 ...copy and paste link into your browser.

If your Browser supports Video downloading ....it is an MP4 File ...then download it if you want.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/02/18/3690317.htm

Flash ..!! :D

[Exfso]

Just downloaded and watched the 4 Traumas version, damn interesting stuff, looks like we have purchased a potential "Lemon":screwy:

[jaradmartin]

Despite all of the military reasons why the JSF is wrong for Australia, the diplomatic imperative of keeping our American political masters happy (who themselves are enslaved to their industrial-military complex) will have us living with the financial consequences for decades...

[AndrewJ]

And now to add to the fun
i see reports that they have just grounded them all due to cracks in turbine blades.
Be interesting to see if its a design or manufacturing flaw,
but not good either way.

Andrew

[leinad]

Bunch F-35A's were to be headed to Nevada this month for operational testing.

I wouldn't be surprised of hearing more problems reported to come, but not that this is a bad thing.

[Astro_Bot]

An interesting bit on the Four Corners program was the description of the working relationship between the prime contractor (LM) and the program office: something like "the worst I've ever seen", though I might have to watch it again to check that.

I've heard in detail about, and even seen first hand, toxic relationships with a contractor. In my recollection, after that becomes known, one of three things happens:
(a) dramatic scale-back of the project and continuation at a reduced rate;
(b) exercising a cancellation clause (if there is one); or,
(c) litigation (albeit rarely, and usually only for small projects/tasks). Edit: or liquidated damages (usually for larger projects) - I forgot about that one.

No idea what will happen here, though. I've never heard of a problem on this scale before ... except maybe the 1980's era Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), a.k.a Star Wars, program - I don't remember how that ended, only that it did. Edit: Just checked the history - seems SDI was a case (a) dramatic scale-back ... as SDIO was renamed BMDO (later MDA) rather than BMDO being a new organisation.

[Astroman]

Just on the Raptors they landed at Avalon at around 6pm on the 22nd of Feb.. One almost had an in flight emergency (electrical problems) but was able to make it to the Airfield. Looks like only 1 might flying at Avalon this year.

[leinad]

Argh!, don't jinx it :)

Maybe it was just a smoke alarm on the cigar smoke he was enjoying after a long transatlantic flight.

[Astro_Bot]

Clearly, it doesn't take much to amuse you. And now you're pronouncing yourself the greatest armchair expert of them all? :lol:


What utter rubbish. Our FMS relationship with the US is sound - it's a money-for-service contract, Government-to-Government. You could argue the same with our purchase of a Swedish submarine, Swedesh frigate combat system, French/European helicopter, Spanish light aircaft (I think that one's still going ahead), Spanish destroyer/amphib hulls, Austrian rifles, yada yada yada ... or any number of things we build for ourselves, and yet none hae harmed our FMS relationship or the alliance. And guess who LM teamed with for assistance designing the F-35B (STOVL version)? Yakovlev Design Bureau, and they're f___ing Russian!!!


We've retrofitted almost everything we have to some degree. I'd say that is exactly our strong point - where we fail, if anywhere, is putting too much faith in "blue sky" projects (and the original Collins combat system was indeed "blue sky"). The Super SeaSprite was a bad idea from the outset - many people said so, including me. The project was driven initially by the Offshore Patrol Combatant project that required a small helicopter and it was always going to be a compromise considering what they were trying to pack into it - it should have been cancelled when OPC was, but it staggered on. The aim and technology was sound, but trying to get it all into a tiny platform with only 2 crew was its undoing - it just couldn't be certified for operations in those circumstances.

We've upgraded most other platforms we have (air, sea and land) and have achieved good performance and cost effectiveness in most cases, compared to O/S projects.


Thank you, Captain Obvious. ;) That is actually what most of us are thinking/saying.


Australia is not buying the F-35B (STOVL variant), only the F-35A. Despite the occasional misinformed rumour, the LHD class of ships will only ever carry helicopters.

The F-35 program problems are applicable to all variants.

Edit: Bugger! After all that, it seems Hans deleted his original post. Oh well. :rolleyes:

[Hans Tucker]

Jeez RG..such a hostile response...did you miss your daily Valium dose today.

I deleted the post after realising it was going to be a one sided argument, which is obvious from your response. People like you only want to hear from others with like minded views. If I am wrong by all means point it out but leave out the profanity, its the sign of an individual whom hasn't got a command of the English language. The, use of emoticons doesn't diffuse the hostility of your response either.

Also, I know a lot more about the FMS system/agreement than you give me credit for. The withdraw of support won't be blatantly obvious but more subtle, thats what I am on about. Squirrel Helicopter comes to mind here.

Yes, I was wrong about the F-35B...so sue me. Australia is still only a level 3 partner in the F-35 development, other countries have more to loose if/when the project fails but there might be some good developments that can be salvaged out of the project.

[Astro_Bot]

Again, rubbish. I doubt you have much experience with FMS at all, if that's your impression.


The Aerospatiale Squirrel is French!


And so it becomes ad hominem. If you perceive my bluntness as hostility, then that's a mistake. I acknowledge that I'm no diplomat (never have been) and if you'd had the long career arguing with the boneheads that I've had to argue with, you'd probably be the same. If you knew me, you'd know I'm not hostile (except in extremely rare circumstances that have yet to arise here). But if I see something as "rubbish" I won't hesitate to say so - it used to be my job.

PS: The profanity was being used for emphasis, as it often is - watch some late night TV talk shows, and I'm sure you'll see what I mean - it's quite common. ;)

[Hans Tucker]

This one a long time have I watched.....Much anger in him.

Re: The Squirrel...Yes it is French but it was perceived that we were blackmailed into buying this Helicopter to keep spares flowing for the Mirage...true...I have no idea. The rumour came from some fact...then possibly distorted.

[Astro_Bot]

Like I said, ad hominem. :(

[Hans Tucker]

Yes...Yes it is.

[Astro_Bot]

Oh, this bit is new - you must have edited your post in between me starting my previous reply and hitting "Submit" ... anyway ...

The Squirrel was, and still is, a popular aircraft worldwide. I knew a guy on the project who once explained to me why we bought them (as well as knowing the people who flew them) - it made sense at the time - there's no need to propogate rumours to explain the purchase of the "Battle Budgie".

Besides, the timelines don't quite add up - we took delivery of off-the-shelf Squirrels in '84, already a long way into the Hornet project and just about when deliveries started. Also, I can't imagine bowing to that kind of pressure - we may make some foolhardy decisions from time to time, but they're all our own - no need to invent foreign influence to explain our mistakes (and I've had long involved dealings with the boneheads that make the decisions ... believe me, that's enough explanation for everything). ;)

[matthewota]

Granted my views are biased (being a U.S.Citizen)...but the USA makes the worlds best killing machines overall. It is too bad that the US Congress banned overseas sales of the F-22 Raptor, which arguably is the best current fighter jet in the world.

The F-35 Lightning II is turning into a mess as it is way over budget and has gained too much weight, and thus has a very reduced combat radius and range.

As for the French figher, I am quite ignorant of them. I was never impressed with thier Mirage series.

I am just an old veteran of the US Air Force....

[solissydney]

The latest news states that all F35's have been grounded in the US
due to a faulty fan blade. One would think they would also be grounded here in OZ

[leinad]

I found this article to be a descriptive and unbiased news report. Kudos.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2013/02/dn022213-f35-grounded-again-mil/

[Hans Tucker]

Major problem for Pratt & Whitney and a delay Lockheed Martin could do without but this is hardly the fault of the project. I guess this wont stop the head hunters and the vultures waiting for the project to fail. Has any major defence project been on time and on budget.

Totally unrelated but if you can get your hands on the movie Pentagon Wars (development of the M2 Bradley fighting vehicle) with Kelsey Grammer...watch it...it's hilarious.

[Astro_Bot]

For the record, no offence is ever intended. :)


Why does being critical equal "waiting for the project to fail"? I'd much rather the project succeed than not and my guess is that most critics feel that way.


Very few, and mostly small ones at that. It's the scale of the problems, delays and cost overruns here that is most perplexing - an estimated 6 years late and reduced performance and treble the original cost!

[AndrewJ]

P51 mustang,
Queen Elizabeth class battleships
Essex class aircraft carriers
Type VIIC submarines
( all of which ( relatively ) dwarf what we are doing these days )
plus a few more examples.
Admittedly, not recent, but designed to do a job,
and produced on time to suit the need.

Andrew

[AstralTraveller]

Being able to project undisputed air superiority 2500km E-SE of Sydney coupled with pinpoint ground attack capabilities is the only way we'll get the Bledisloe Cup back.

[Shano592]

Maybe the Government can do what the Chinese did.

Make a massive order for SU-27's, on the proviso that one is sent straight away for the pilots to familarise themselves with.

Next, spend 12 months reverse engineering it, and have local factories make the parts. Except for the engine, which would need to be bought in larger numbers than one (as that couldn't be worked out in time).

The reconstruct it on home soil, calling it a completely unique strike fighter, and give it your own code.

Then cancel the remaining order to the Russians, and start selling the home grown one to Pakistan.

Win win!

/end sarcasm

(although this scenario has actually occurred, and they are trying to repeat with current fighters)

[Hans Tucker]

I wonder how the F-35 project with all it's problems compares to the European Typhoon Eurofighter project which also had issues with a blown out budget and extensive delays...in the end they got an aircraft.

Going back in history I believe the Grumman Lunar Lander had 7 year development schedule and an initial budget of $500M which blew out to $2.2B..and that is back in the 1960's.

[Hans Tucker]

Why not just hack into the database and steal the plans and the manufacture your own

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/security-experts-admit-china-stole-secret-fighter-jet-plans/story-fnb64oi6-1226296400154

[Astro_Bot]

:lol: :thumbsup:

[wasyoungonce]

Well despite the similaraties...this Chinese version is very different to the JSF. One being it's twin engine and has fwd cannards. The Chinese version....no LE slats. Ailerons and flaps have cowl's covering the hydraulic jacks (points of radar signature return) also lower vertical stabilisers and the engine coal flaps do not look like thrust vectoring.

Other little things like the engine coal flaps project rearwards from the fuselage & airframe envelope (thus larger radar and heat return signatures) ...in other words it not a very good copy.

There is lots wrong with this Chinese version ...things that the US designers would have worked and overcome very well. This you can be assured.

[Astro_Bot]

I've never suggested the Eurofighter, since it's current estimated flyaway cost is about the same as the JSF. But it is a good air superiority fighter by all accounts, and, in exercises, is rumoured to have some kills even against F22s. Estimated cost for an export Su30 is about one-third to one-half the cost of the Eurofighter or JSF - that's it's main attraction, given it's performance. But, as I said in an earlier post, I think the time for these options came and went a while back.

The F-35 blowouts are proportionally worse (at a given point in development). That stings more because one of the main selling points of the F-35 was that it was supposed to be built in a cost-controlled manner and to schedule.


They weren't building ~2500 of them and selling them to partners! Key points are that the LEM was delivered quickly and on-time, met its goals and was a bespoke build in uncharted territory.

There's a saying in projects: "Cost, Quality, Schedule - pick any two". The F-35 is failing on all three!

[leinad]

It's more like the Su PAK-FA T-50

Theres some interesting articles how the Chinese stole Russians intellectual property on the Su-27 many years ago. Russians learnt their lesson from sharing that time.

Now they are in a deal supposedly with Russia to buy Su-35 jets; which they'll then most likely use or reverse engineer the engines for their J program. :question:

[LewisM]

Appropriate timing:

[leinad]

And the Iraq War cost over a Trillion, but no one seems to notice that one.