Request for advice - buying my next refractor

[g__day]

Hey folks,

I am thinking of buying a refractor this year - and would appreciate pointers as what to buy or avoid. This will be my fifth scope, but only my second refractor (I have a old 80mm Williams Optics Megrez I quite like).

I am planning to give away an old 127 MAK and mount this new scope side by side with my C9.25 in suburban Sydney in a permanent pier in an astro lab. So I will most likely use my Vixen Atlux mount and side by side (Losmandy) mount the C9.25 and this new (or used) scope. My site has fairly evident light pollution and only reasonable viewing most nights.

My budget is anywhere between $2K to $5K. No idea if I eventually wish to do imaging with it or use it mainly for visual (in seeing challenged skies). I haven't looked through many refractors at all - but I do like how tac sharp the WO is compared to an SCT - it just doesn't have much light grasp for visual in Sydney skies.

So I'd been thinking a 120mm - 130mm APO of moderate to high quality. Happy to add after market focuser or flatteners or coma corrector later if I decide to do astro photography with it.

So I am probably not talking a TEC, Televue, Tak or Astro-Physics quality "Ortho-apochromatic" quality scope (to borrow Tak's lovely terminology). I do like the idea of carbon fibre (works brilliantly on the SCT) but I hear conflicting views about whether it helps or hinders maintaining focus on a Refractor (I wonder if it varies depending if is a doublet, triplet or quad or more lens design).

So that leads in to the next question - I don't feel like getting a simple Skywatcher ED quality scope - I want to purchase above this level. Long-Pern and GSO have impressed me with their finder scopes in the past. But I am pondering if a quality Doublet, Triplet or Qaud lens design should be on my must buy feature list.

Too I ponder whether for my needs a 110, 115, 127 or 130mm aperature scope really matters. I see a nice second hand WO refractor in the IIS for sale at the moment - and that's worth considering definitely.

So given this will probably be a scope for 70% - 80% visual initially - and say impressing friends that drop in with sharper views of Saturn, Mars or Jupiter (and whatever else); what advice will folk give me (beyond attend star parties and look through many different scopes.

Many thanks everyone who can help, ask any qualifying questions you recommend for me to better reveal my intentions or choice set limits and I will try an give considered answers!

Matthew

[Poita]

I reckon the best bang for buck is a Lomo scope if you can find one second hand. Fantastic optics, along with an actual test so you know what you are getting, solid build quality and as good a views as you will get, for much less than a Tak.
Worth a look.

[dannat]

If you want to consider photography youll need a triplet (unless you buy a tak or televue doublet-the most expensive)

For visual use in the burbs 5" makes sense, but you're talking 3k, for some photography you mit get away with the north group 127triplet vti have for 1200, get a top focuser for 600 & the pkg comes under 2k

Most of the 5" refract are heavy though, something to think of, the skywatcher 120ed with reducer/flattener is still something to think of, add on good focuser & it's still light for visual use also

Are you buying new or used, Amart will have much more choice, eg tmb130

[g__day]

Lomo - I hadn't heard of before!

Triplet or Quad is fine

5" might be a bit too much budget wise (i.e. > $5K) for anything that is good quality

Second hand is fine so long as quality is high and condition is great.

PS

Also reading through the advice in http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/archive/index.php/t-50785.html

[Larryp]

Have a good long look at Stellarvue-great scopes and reasonable price

[gregbradley]

If you have a C9.25 and want to do visual then you will be disappointed with suburban views unless you get to around the 130mm aperture. Smaller than that and you really only get widefield views. Use a high powered eyepiece on a 100mm scope and you get really dim views of anything other than the brightest objects. As far as an impressive view of the Planets that would be your C9.25. A 130+ aperture is needed for that in my opinion.

So for visual perhaps the 127mm North Group scope would fit your needs.

A 2nd hand Tak FS125 comes up every now and then. A doublet is not ideal for photography as there is too much chromatic aberration but you can process around that to some degree.

I agree with looking at Stellarvue and also check out APM. He has some nice large aperture cheap doublet visual scopes. Perhaps that is the go.
They were way under $5K.

Greg.

[gbeal]

I think 5" is where you are headed.
North Group ED127 if the budget is tight, Tak TSA120 if it will stretch.
The NG ED127 is a well respected scope, with many followers here. It would also allow a similar 80mm scope if wider than the current 5" FOV was desired.
Don't forget to factor in field flatteners and reducer/flatteners in too, they are essential in some/most scopes.
Gary

[wavelandscott]

I'd second the consideration of APM...I really like my APM scope. They have a new line of Chinese made scopes made to their QC standards at a lower price point. It might be worth a look.

[Poita]

http://365daysofastronomy.org/2010/10/29/october-29th-a-primer-on-high-end-refractor-telescope-optics-part-3/

[issdaol]

We love our little Tak TSA-120. It is a snap to setup and views are sharp and contrasty even from the backyard in Canberra. It is very light for an APO (around 6.5 kilo) and has good internal baffling. I have read independent tests putting them around .992 Strehl and I could quite easily believe this.

With the favorable Dollar VS Yen you can get one under $5k now.

Noted you were in Sydney so if you feel like the drive down to have a look one evening feel free to bring your fav EP and PM me.

[g__day]

I must say - I am tempted to go larger than a 130mm APO - but mostly likely that will be in 2 years when the kids have finally finished (private) high school; then I will be more finanical - hopefully. So my next telescope is really to ease me into the world of apos.

I have never looked through an APO - so I am a virgin in that respect - not sure what I expect to see versus my C9.25, which is in pretty tip-top condition. Its just that I've outgrown my MAK and think an APO is completely missing from my line up of astronomy tools!

I am unsure whether to go a really high-end smaller apo - then sell it and buy a bigger high-end apo once I'm in the black / or simply start with an mid range apo then upgrade once my mortgage is down a bit.

The next stage for me will be upgrade mount, cameras and OTAs - likely a major financial event; the moment this hobby is about learning and enjoying astronomy as a long term passion!

Poita - thanks for the link - yes it's all the gear I lust for!

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Matthew,

I have been a recent convert to Apo's with the purchase of the Williams Optics FLT110 Flourite Triplet, which came with a bonus field flattener. I am amazed by the views and it has now become my most used telescope, despite the crappy alt/az mount I currently have to use (which will be upgraded soon to a EQ6 GT mount). Although I have an equatorial fork mounted 8" SCT in an observatory, I much prefer the FLT110 Apo. Although the image scale is smaller, for any given eyepiece focal length, the views through the FLT110 are very sharp in comparison, and contrast is considerably better.

When I first started to look at the idea of buying an APO, I had seen through some high end 130mm Apo's from AP and Tak. Awesome they are, however, price considerations dictated that I had to look at something mid range, as the price of the OTA 130/150mm Tak are around $9,000 and $13,000 respectively. And that is not taking into consideration that you would have to buy Tak accessories

I have an Orion 80mm achromat (currently mounted on top of my 8" SCT), which I still think is a great little telescope, and wanted something a little bigger and better, so after some research and cost analysis I decided on the FLT110 Apo, which I bought directly from WO.

I am extremely happy with it, and even though I would like something bigger, however, the price of a great 5/6" Apo's jumps considerably and my bank account simply says no.

Although the 130mm or 150mm Takahashi would be my ideal, however, their price are prohibitive, particularly when considering that you would also require a substantial mount for it. So, when considering the scope size, don't forget to think about the size of the mount you would need.

Had I already had a decent GEM mount, I would have maybe looked at a larger scope. However, having to add a further $5,000 (Losmandy G11 or EQ8) to $10,000 (MX) for a mount put it well out of range.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers Peter

[beren]

I enjoy the views offered by the refractors I own but more often then not for visual the larger aperture from the compound scopes are far more satisfying. IMO for a refractor up to 130mm it has to serve a dual purpose as either a grab/go scope or for astrophotography. Then you have to decide what focal ratio you'll be happy with which could impact those two functions then obviously what price your prepared to pay which determines the quality of the optics {in theory anyway}. I remember a while back on the forums a beautiful AP130 gran turismo F/6 was put up for sale and brought by a member to be used for visual on a alt/Azi mount. I thought at the time what a great set-up but probably not the most practical for the buyers needs with the scopes purpose more geared for imaging. Not long after the scope was back in the classifieds along with the mount, whether the sale was related to the equipments impracticality to the users situation I can only guess but wow something to ponder before buying given the large investment given.

[gregbradley]

That's my experience Beren. A smallish APO gives spectacular wide field star views but for regular visual only I think it starts at 140mm. That's just my opinion. Otherwise the views are quite a bit dimmer than your 9.25. Sharper and more contrasty but dimmer. I had a Tak FS152 and that was fabulous at a dark site. About the same or slightly better than an 8 inch SCT but a far more engaging view.

Greg.

[Steffen]

With a budget like that I'd take another look at Maksutovs. Retire your little toy Mak and get a "real" one, like a 7" or 8" Intes-Micro RuMak type :D

I agree with Greg and find APO refractors too small for most visual use, unless you hit the 5-6" mark and associated price tag.

Cheers
Steffen.

[Kunama]

Send a PM to UniPol (Steve) he had a WO 132 triplet with Starlight Instruments 4" Feather Touch R & P focuser, WO RDF, WO tube rings, WO dovetail & saddle plate, WO 2" dielectric quartz diagonal, in the classifieds recently around the $3300 mark but withdrew the ad. An immaculate scope apparently.
He might still be prepared to sell it.

[issdaol]

Steve's Gear is well looked after gear so worth the time to investigate.

He also has experience across a wide range or equipment including WO and Tak so probably a good source of real practical advice.

[Kunama]

I have only had 30 minutes at the eyepiece of my Takahashi TSA120 but that 30 minutes confirmed that I made the right choice, sharp and CA free optics, just a superb scope.

[David Niven]

Just luv this triplet apo and especially the price.
you can get this babe for just $1299 from VTi Optics.

[raymo]

Steffen is absolutely right. I had a 150mm Skywatcher Mak. It was
a first class scope. I could clearly see the bright blue/green companion
of Antares with it; something I cannot do with my C-8, my 200mm
Newt, or my 250mm Dob. The stars were pin sharp, and the contrast was great; and it was nice and compact. A larger one would be a great
scope, and have a focal length suitable for higher power imaging,
and also be better for visual work, having a much larger aperture
than an APO. Just my opinion.
raymo

[Stardrifter_WA]

I recently bought the WO 110 Flourite (For $2,500 landed). I would have bought the 132 myself but couldn't afford the extra cost. Nevertheless, I love my WO FLT110. Definitely the best refractor I have ever owned. :)

[Steffen]

I suppose Matthew needs to decide whether he wants the scope for visual or imaging use.

I reckon that $2500 is too much for a 4" visual scope, no matter how good it is. You just don't see enough through it to justify the price tag. I accept that a refractor of this size will easily beat a 6" reflector for sheer visual pleasure, but said reflector will cost a small fraction of the refractor.

For imaging use the scenario appears to change considerably (and beyond my area of experience). Many people on this very forum have proven that excellent images are possible with diminutive refractors.

Cheers
Steffen.

[Profiler]

I am commenting here only from my own experience and perceptions. In principle I agree with everyones comments in terms of general bang for your buck as to what you get and see in a refractor versus any of the reflectors.

However, I would like to add one other dimension which is resale value. In this context it seems to me refractors generally (and especially high end refractors) always fare much better in terms of retaining their value. This doesn't have anything to do with what you see through the eyepiece but once you buy something and decide you don't like it for whatever reason I have found that it always seems to be much easier to sell a refractor (for a good price) and thus minimise the loss on your initial outlay.

Ironically, this principle also seems to be the most pronounced with the more expensive brands.

As a final tip I would strongly recommend looking and perhaps buying from William Optics online.

I have observed a number of occasions where WO products are being sold 2nd hand here on IIS for prices that are very close to the same as what you could buy the product for brand new straight from the manufacturer (William Optics) often inclusive of shipping all the way from Taiwan to Oz.

For example, I saw a 2nd hand diagonal sell for $80 while an identical brand new one could be purchased from WO online inclusive of frieght to Oz for $85!

[Kunama]

I think there is more to it Steffen, I can understand people paying a large premium for beautifully crafted items, rather than mass produced ones.
The actual time spent at the eyepiece is rather small in most cases so sometimes one has to be content to just admire the scope designers craft while waiting for clouds to clear. ;)

Profiler, I agree with your thoughts on re-sale values, I think once a person knows their involvement in astronomy is not a passing fad, they should look to buy a scope that they will be happy to own for a long time.
If that costs more at the start, the savings will come later when, instead of trading up again and again you stay with that first purchase. Looking at the the trends in buying and selling here on IIS (self included) most people seem to under-spend and then end up upgrading to what they really wanted but thought they could not afford.

With regard to buying off-shore the real problem is what happens when something goes wrong and there are no more aussie dealers left to help you.

[skytry]

hi Matthew,
and others for their entries,
what a great topic,
I am asking something similar in general chat,

and I am viewing all responses with interest,

another brand I am considering is Explore Scientific 127mm
APO refractor, another grab & go scope, if they made bigger
I would consider that also,

the Williams I would be prepared to purchase, good name good
backup service if required, their quality I consider too be good also,

thank you for the reply's,

regards,
Peter.

[Profiler]

Some very good points Matt

I agree it is nice to support local business but it is important to keep an open mind as simply because a shop is local doesn't imply they are automatically better (in terms of service if something isn't quite right/goes wrong etc) or conversely an on-line business won't be as good.

If you read these forums there are plenty of good and bad experiences with both Oz stores and on-line stores.

[martyn01]

Have a look here just got nexstar 8se shipped to oz for $1400 saves all most $1000

http://www.highpointscientific.com/c=17T80S9X6F3Wk8I9qNyQR9HGW/

[Steffen]

Yes, I can totally accept that. Likewise, I personally feel that $100,000 is too much to spend on a car I use for my daily commute. That's not to say somebody else who has the means and the love for exotic cars shouldn't spend that much or more.

Cheers
Steffen.

[Kal]

The stellarvues and APM scopes suggested are certainly high quality, but they are just as expensive or even more expensive than AP/TEC/TAK scopes. For example, a SV130 apo is US$5975 compared to the TEC140 APO at $5700.

I own a 5" AP Apo and a C11, if I want to do anything purely visual beyond a fast setup 'quick observe' I will always pull out the C11. You just can't beat aperture. So my advice is to sit tight with what you have :)

[brian nordstrom]

I had a very good NG 127mm triplet and as already said here these triplets are a steal . Awsome optics and build .
But , there is always a But ! .
I had the chance to buy a Takahashi Mewlon 210 and I will say the views thru this scope just blew the 127mm away in every way , I have now sold the 127mm , not because it was a bad scope , far from it , its just that the M210 is so much better , like a 7 inch APO at the eyepiece for a good price only 3.2k new from AEC .
Have a look .
Oh yes the M210 is easier to mount than a long refractor OTA .
Brian.

[clive milne]

William Optics Fluorostar FLT-132 on the test bench... (By Wolfgang Rohr)
Verus Skywatcher Equinox 120 - Apo

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&ie=UTF8&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.astro-foren.de/showthread.php%3F10190-Equinox-schl%25E4gt-William-Fluorostar-FLT-132%26p%3D38525&usg=ALkJrhjb3Nn71L6XkN0SHwqFwL9fFAS dbQ#post38525

The FLT-132 gets pwned

[Profiler]

There is no doubt that the perfunctory mass produced refractors coming out of China have, in general, improved immensely from what they were even a decade ago. However, I think one perhaps overlooked key element between the big ticket brands and the mass produced is the consistency in the product/quality control. For example, when you buy a Tak/Televue etc the product is meant to be 100% everytime. The survival of these manufacturers is based upon this reputation and from my own observations - on the once in the blue moon occasion - when something isn't right they cant act quick enough to replace it.

Contrast this with comments even on this thread with the ED127. Now - a 127 APO triplet for $1200 is a dream price - however - for this wonderful price you have to appreciate that something has to give and something has to be different between the prices and thus most likely corners are going to be cut which aren't in the big ticket brand - thus you are buying into a bit of a lucky dip as to what you actually get and whether the particular scope you receive is perfect and whether it has the focuser just right, or some paint missing around the edges, or some dust/fragments visible inside the ota etc etc.

[whzzz28]

Interesting.
All reports for the Equinox series that i have seen is that the scope is a dud. Soft images and average performance given the cost.
Hard to find many reviews for it though - no one is buying it :shrug:

Interestingly i hardly ever see anyone recommend the Televue NP101is. I have heard of many using it for visual and imaging purposes and with a Nagler-Petzval design it should be a cracker. Reviews for imaging are scarce though and same with Google image results.

As someone who is looking for an upgrade of his ED80 to something mid range i say goodluck!
There is not much in the range of $3000-$4000 that is decent. Best i've come up with is the William Optics FLT110 or fork out some more and get a Tak (accessories kill the price though).

[Den]

“ So given this will probably be a scope for 70% - 80% visual initially - and say impressing friends that drop in with sharper views of Saturn, Mars or Jupiter (and whatever else); what advice will folk give me (beyond attend star parties and look through many different scopes.”

Buy a smaller premium APO for astro shots say a 90mm, and for impressing friends on planets purchase a TAL200K FL 8.5 (1700) or bigger TAL250K. I have a TAL200k and it gives excellent views on planets. I have looked through a TOA150 APO and it gives very bright high power views which smaller refractors just cannot do. Have you considered using a long focal length achromatic refractor for visual use Say 6” Istar .
Den

[axle01]

I have just purchased a United Optics ULT 130 Triplet APO Refractor Telescope from Astromony Alive in Melbourne and from what I'm told it is a Williams Optics FLT132 but cheaper, certainly worth looking at.

Alan