What happened to manners?

[LewisM]

Just a general observation - where has THANK YOU gone from our society? It's not just the teenagers - I find it more in older adults!

Have we just become a faceless consumer society where even simple manners like Thank You fall by the wayside?

I have to admit in all my sales here, NOT ONE buyer has ever even said they received their item, let alone a thank you or comment. Even my sales on Fleabay etc are the same, regardless of where the item goes.

Sad how our society is heading now. We expect, with no return manners.

[MortonH]

We also seem to have forgotten the phrase "excuse me". I get fed up with people physically pushing past me in queues, on the bus, etc. when all they have to do is say Excuse me and I'll move out of the way. And like you, I see this in all ages.

[Octane]

The Internet is a cold, thankless and impersonal place.

H

[LewisM]

And chivalry is WELL and truly dead too. Rarely do I see men opening doors for ladies (and have been scorned at by obviously extreme feminist women I have done it for!) or pulling out their chair or opening their car door. Let alone anyone younger standing on a bus or train to let an older person sit.

Today's society is all about Numero Uno.

Sad how we are becoming less human than the computers we make...

[LewisM]

Agreed H, but when their is actual intrinsicness to it you would expect - although seemingly incorrectly - the benefit of a response.

Thank You takes 1 second to say.

[barx1963]

We were actually just discussing phone manners. One of the effects of the "mobile phone scourge" afflicting modern societies is that people are used to the person they are ringing knowing who is calling. Unfortunately, when they ring they forget to introduce themselves. I even have friends who ring me on a landline and just start talking without saying "Hi Malcolm it's so and so here". Apparently I am supposed to figure it out from the tone of their voice!
And it is prevelant at work, with customers wringing up and even when they use a name it's just a first name or even worse a nickname.
So I get "Hi it's Knacker's here, is Macca there?" so instead of finding out what they want or if I can help, I am trying figure out who Knackers and Macca are.

Drives me nuts, what is wrong with using first name and surname so everyone knows what is going on!

Malcolm

[LewisM]

Another valid observation Malcolm.

[multiweb]

Simple. Bad parenting. You get out what you put in. Kids get worse, have kids who get worse, etc... snowball effect.

[AstralTraveller]

Manners are not dead, though perhaps they are not always as we would like. I agree with H about the internet (and I'm probably part of the problem there) and I find mobile phone junkies rude (the ones who can't keep up a face to face conversation because they are texting five others at the same time). However in other areas people are pretty good. On campus queues are respected and people give way at doorways etc. When I ride the shuttle bus nearly everyone thanks the driver as they alite and space is made and seats vacated for old, infirm etc as needed. Naturally there is some variation in behaviour and I have to say they the most likely demographic of the rude or ignorant is younger (early teen?) Australians while perhaps the most courteous is a racial group that receive bad press in some quarters.

Lewis, many years ago when I worked in sales the same thing happened to me. So I took down the order then finished by confirming the order and their name and company - of course getting the last bit wrong on occasions because I didn't know every voice. After a few weeks the more astute customers started to specify their name at the start of the conversation.

[Kunama]

Thank you Lewis for bringing this very important matter to our attention.

I must admit I too am guilty of this transgression at times.
With regard to my astro purchases this year I would like to once again thank :
astroboy
lhansen
flash drive
casstony
unipol
MattT
Meru
gbastro
dougmc
alderney
myastroshop
optcorp

Between these IIS members they have lightened my wallet to the tune of $10,000 this year and brought me lots of toys and joys.
Seriously though, there is a steady decline not only in manners but in attitudes that would not be tolerated in days of old.

I find in shopping centres the youth of today will not step to one side to allow elderly to pass.
Too many parents telling them they own the world I guess.

Cheers
Matt

[MortonH]

Good manners cost nothing, but being an IIS member can cost you thousands!!!:lol:

[chrisp9au]

The age of chivalry is still alive, in some of us.
But sometimes it's not received very well!
I'm a country lad, only head into town when I have to.
Giving up a seat on the bus/train, opening doors for a lady, is how I was raised.
But these days I get hostile looks, an exasperated thank you, or totally ignored. I don't go looking for thanks, but it would be nice occasionally!
Seems many ladies these days believe equality doesn't equate to chivalry!

Such is life!

Chris

[Baddad]

Hi Everyone,:)

I attended primary school in the late 50's and early 60's.
I was taught manners then and there. I always am polite. I do find that what you people refer to on the poor use or non use of manners is quite prevalent. I agree with what you say.:)

I want to add that bad manners is not confined to the areas stated. It also has affected road use etiquette. Particularly by the "P Platers".

A number of times I have been negotiating an exit from a carpark at the local shops. Girl drivers charge in before I can give them adequate room to enter and negotiate into a car park space. It causes congestion and I usually say, " Let a car out before you enter". (stupid) The bracketted word is said under my breath.:mad2::)

I think that people see it as a sign of weakness and are afraid to display good manners for fear of being taken advatage of.
Certainly many P Platers behave like that.:mad2:

Cheers:)

[astroron]

I have noticed that too, also there are people on here who don't give one the courtesy of a reply when you send them PM's or post on their thread's ;)
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Kunama]

I agree with you wholeheartedly Chris,
I opened a door for a 'lady' about my age recently only to be told:
" I can get my own door thanks" in a terse statement.

Such a shame.

[Irish stargazer]

I use public transport where I can to avoid traffic jams in the morning rush hour via a short bus ride a a 15 minute train ride. I do find most people thank the bus driver on exiting. What gets me is the almost total lack of eye contact on the train as most people are stuck into their smartphones. It seems to be a way of avoiding any kind of contact. I wouldn't refer to it as impolite but as a sign of the times.

[TrevorW]

I commute daily and children who pay a 50c fare

theres a sign that says

"Students etc who pay a conc fare should stand for adults" not must

it really pees me off when I and others pay $8 and upwards for our fares daily and children are not made to stand

society and parents have created a mob of selfish inconsiderate little darlings

[LewisM]

I must admit, I am pretty average here at answering any PM's let alone seeing them - this BBS is one of the only ones I frequent that does NOT pop up with a "new private message" pop up when you refresh a page etc. I have gone weeks without even checking my inbox here, mainly due to being used to being told there was a message.

Ron, sometimes it is more appropriate not to answer than to answer with what may cause more issue. Detente, per se :) :) OR even dog chasing it's tail. It was wiser to leave the entire thread as-was, seeing it was going nowhere fast.

[LewisM]

P Platers - just young, brash, bold and TOTALLY inexperienced. Though of course, they know everything.

Having gone back to University to "refresh" a degree, I know all about P Platers. Had cause to use the horn more than a few times last semester :) And I HATE using horns! (I am the type who will slow down even more if you honk me)

[Allan_L]

Perhaps it is just the area I live in, or visit, but I generally find that there are MORE polite people than impolite.
Its just that its the Impolite ones that Bug you and stick in your memory.
IMHO

For me, the important thing is to maintain your own standards and don't expect anything in return. That way you can only be pleasantly rewarded.

[LewisM]

VERY pertinent and true!

[Allan_L]

Thankyou.
BTW you can set you preferences to notify you when you get a new PM.
Even sends you an email if you are off site.

[LewisM]

OK, thanks, will do that now!

[LewisM]

Pop up PM notification now enabled. Thanks again :)

[casstony]

There seems to be a lot less manners in cities and crowds compared to smaller towns and communities. In small towns people tend to know each other and wave at everyone, a habit that's hard to break and somewhat tiring when moving to the big smoke :)

[Rob_K]

Sounds like oldfartitis to me. Can remember the same old whinges about the younger generation and slips in standards being trotted out when I was a little tacker (er, minus the iPod & texting refs!).



My experience too.



Well said Allan! :thumbsup: Hehe, although I'm always extra polite to ill-mannered people - try it, it confuses them! :lol:

Cheers -

[Ric]

Manners are learnt from an early age and children will always learn from their parents. I was taught at an early age and manners are now second nature to me.

A please or a thankyou doesn't cost anything and takes but a second. I still send thankyou letters or emails to people who have given me gifts or sent me things. It only takes a minute or two to say something has arrived safely and thank them.

I like to treat people how I like to be treated myself, if they so choose to be rude or nasty to me then I just let them be and talk to someone else or take future business elsewhere.

Cheers all and have a great new year.

[MrB]

Hi Lewis,
I could have sworn I sent you a PM!
I honestly thought I had but I have just looked thru my sent items box and there is no PM there :shrug:
I do apologise profusely for the lack of reply.
Everyone(there are many!) that I have previously dealt with in Icetrade has always received a thank you message when the item has arrived.
I am buggered if I know how I missed sending you one. Only thing I can guess I was at work(where you sent the item) and got distracted, thought I had hit send but didn't and then closed the window :shrug:
Again, my apologies.

If it is worth anything now, many thanks for ML :thumbsup:
It is now living quite happily on a small Stellarvue 70ED and is a massive improvement over the standard focuser which was made worse by abuse from the SV70ED's previous owner(s)(though they deny any knowledge of damage :( )

Many thanks again :D

[MortonH]

While we're at it, let's not forget to thank Mike and Terry for another great year of running this website. Plus all the moderators of course!

:thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks:

[Darth Wader]

Chivalry is dead - thank christ.

I can't understand why a small portion of men still trip over themselves to hold doors open or give up their seats on public transport for thankless women. I've worked in a major city for nearly 11 years, and it took me only a few unacknowledged gestures to throw in the towel. Now I hold doors only for women who are friends, only give up my seat for pregnant or elderly women and don't even bother smiling at or greeting unknown women in my office. We're living in a new era gentlemen.

[brian nordstrom]

:question: You seen to have forgotten about me , my mate ? the semi apo filter that I loaned you ? I thanked you for its safe return ..;).
I make a point thanking every person that I have got gear off here at IIS ( and its way to much gear :D ) , it costs nothing , shame some people forget .
Yes , and thanks Mike and all the moderators for putting up with me ...:thumbsup:.
Brian
Happy new year all .

[LewisM]

Brian, well, you go without saying - you've been downright great since day one for me here - ever helpful, trusting... a true mate. So things go without saying.

Damn it, someone hand me the box of Kleenex... :)

[brian nordstrom]

:D Cant have the kleanex's mate , they are with me ...:rofl:
Thanks Lewis ..
Brian.

[Blue Skies]

Hey, hey, not all of us are like that! I'm a woman who still appreciates a door held open for me, and I usually say thank you to the door holder as I pass, too, to let them know that I appreciate them being thoughtful. I don't understand those women who think its an insult either, so please don't tar us all with the same brush.

And as for not saying thank you on the forums, may I direct you to my question here (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=101088)just yesterday (before you posted this one)?

But the sentiment is something I will try to keep in mind, seeing how I was complaining about a very similar thing not long ago in another place.

[Rob P]

Manners are still out there, but there are will always be a few who will be less than courteous (maybe they've had a bad day, distracted or just ignorant, who knows?).

I worked in the service industry for several years and we had the following drummed in to us: 'Do something positive and the passenger will tell one other person; do something negative and they will inform ten others.' The point being, the average person will always remember the negative over the good.

Personally, I've mostly (would like to say always but...) found that if I'm pleasant, polite and open then these traits are reciprocated.

[chrisp9au]

Now, sadly, that is just what some of us are talking about.

There are many of us, of a certain age, brought up by parents who could see how chivalry, manners, and politeness accompanied by a smile, would make life so much more pleasant for everyone.
And that is how it has been for many of us for many years.

We are not a small portion, we are a quiet, but not silent, majority who wish that we could preserve that which has served us well for a long time.

Also sad, nostalgia ain't what it used to be...

Chris

[Darth Wader]

Manners and politeness - I agree with you 100%. I just don't go out of my way to do anything for unappreciative people.



In my big-city experience, men like you are in the minority.

The world has changed. Women don't want this treatment any more - that is clearly self-evident by their reaction to it.

[FlashDrive]

I can remember the day's when a man walking down the street ... if he had a hat on ... he would ' tip ' it as a woman walked by ... and say words like ... ' how do you do ' or ... ' good morning ' .

even ... opening a door for a lady when entering a building .... ladies first .. then the man followed.

I often saw this happening when I was a ' wee little boy ' of 4 and 5 years old.:D

Flash ..!! ;)

[Larryp]

I remember all this too, Flash. A man always walked down stairs in front of a lady, too-just in case she slipped and fell!

[chrisp9au]

And walked on the outside of the pavement to protect the lady from being splashed!

[Baddad]

And a gentleman went in front of the lady up the stairs. (The lady following) Ah! Can you remember why? And can you explain it in the polite and tactful way it was explained to me?:D

A gentleman would always light a lady's cigarette.:)
Seated gentlemen always arose when a lady stood up or entered a room.
Times have changed.:(

Some years ago in the vicinity of the Adelaide law courts, I was told that the male lawyers never opened doors for women or performed any of the gentlemanly functions. Lest they be accused of gender discrimination.:P
I'd like to see a case like that up before the courts.;)

Cheers:)

[barx1963]

I can remember my grandmother seternly telling me to always walk on the kerbside of a lady. She didn't ex[lain why, just that it was the done thing.
And woe betide me if I held my knife and fork the wrong way.
Mind you table manners were not really important in their own right, it was my parents way of teaching us that good manners were important.

Malcolm

[Mariposa]

Sadly there are less and less people with good manners, but I make them a standard in my life, I don't expect everybody to appreciate it, if somebody reacts badly, I don't care, they lose. But I can see how a simple smile and a caring gesture can make somebody else's day. There are too many unhappy people in this world, people who take themselves too seriously. I call myself feminist, in the sense that I believe a woman has the same rights and obligations as men, and should have the same opportunities, this has nothing to do with women who believe they are somehow superior to men, I feel sorry for the women who think that way and angers me that they give feminism a bad name.

[LewisM]

Well, needless to say wife and I are bringing our 4 year old up "Old School". She is a delight - sits at a table when out at a restaurant, doesn't fiddle or play or be stupid. Just sits and eats and talks to us etc. Mouth close chewing naturally :)

Wife is a Russian born and bred and works as a psychiatrist - Russian women EXPECT manners and chivalry still to this day. Failing to do so means no woman :) Simple! Poor manners are simply NOT accepted in Russia, else you be branded what amounts to an animal.

[LewisM]

Thanks Simon :thumbsup:

[RB]

Thank you Morton, Brian and all our members, wishing everyone a very happy and safe New Year.

Kind Regards
Andrew

[cfranks]

I still open a door for , well, really anyone, but especialy ladies. I suppose I am too old to change but if there is no response from the person, and unfortunately it is nearly always a younger woman, I say "you're welcome" fairly loudly. :)

I read somewhere long ago about the decline in civility being a sure sign of a declining society.

Charles

[LewisM]

We rent out rooms as we own a flat. We get so many people looking through, telling you they will let you know but NEVER do. We had a decent young guy (uni graduate) check out the room. GReat manners and accord right from the start.

He sent an SMS yesterday telling us he had decided on another room, but thank you for the time and effort to show him the room etc. I was well pleased with that guy - if he ever needs a room, he's got it!

[jjjnettie]

Feminist Nazis give all women a bad name. :(
I'll open the door to anyone who has their hands full, and offer to help carry a load that is awkward.

Last year, I had to catch a train into town for a court case. I had only got out of hospital a few days before from my thyroid op and still had yukky bandages around my neck, (couldn't remove them for a couple more days) I was feeling crook as a chook. It was an early morning train, and full of passengers. I ended up having to sit on the floor. Not one person who was staring at me the whole journey had the heart to offer me a seat.
If I wasn't so crook I would have yelled at all of them.

And people wonder why I live a hermit life style. People in general are heartless and self centred.

[rat156]

Bloody hell, I thought I was a crabby old fart! Oh no hang on, I AM a crabby old fart, I don't know what that makes you people, but complaining about someone not acknowledging an act of kindness is in another league. Seriously people, do you not see, just a little bit of hypocrisy when you complain about manners (or the lack thereof), then in the same post have a whinge about people not saying thanks for posting in a thread or sending you a message when a trade has been finalised?

I rarely, if ever, follow up on a sale or purchase after the deal is done and the goods are sent/received, I don't do this for any other purchase, either physical or over the Internet. I mean, I don't ring up the supermarket once I get my shopping home saying it got there.

When I perform an act of kindness, be that opening a door, giving up a seat, I don't do it so I receive thanks, I do it because that's what you should do, regardless of whether the recipient says anything (good or bad). I will continue to do so, because that's what I do and that's what I expect of others.

Cheers
Stuart

[rat156]

I should also point out that "Feminist Nazi" is oxymoronic at best and downright rude and insulting at worst. Perhaps calling others names should not be in a post about "manners"?

Cheers
Stuart

[beren]

:thumbsup::thumbsup: agreed

[Kunama]

I think the difference here is that this is not a supermarket, it is a community of mostly likeminded people and with that comes a reasonable expectation of honesty, politeness, courtesy and respect for each other.

[FlashDrive]

Good On You Lewis ... Keep going Mate ...She will thank you for it in years to come.... and will no doubt ..pass it all on to her ' little ones ' if she has them.

A perfect example of how a child can be bought up WHEN THE PARENT HAS CONTROL ( lovingly ) over than own.

Flash ..!!

[jjjnettie]

I use the term "Feminist Nazi" to describe those women who abuse gentlemen for their chivalry.
Their extremism is despicable. The title is meant to be rude and insulting. Just like their behaviour.
I've seen them in action, and I've seen the hurt they have caused.
I'm ashamed to call myself a feminist because we all get lumped into the same category as them.

[adman]

Opening doors, giving up seats etc etc for women stems from the view that women are the weaker and/or inferior sex - prone to frailty, hysteria etc - it goes all the way back to original sin.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the way it has become "good manners" to rub women's noses in this fact at every opportunity. When a male gives up his seat on the bus for someone purely because they are a woman, he might as well say to them "Here, have my seat. You are a woman, and less able to stand on your own two feet than I am." It is no wonder that some women get a little cranky about it.

I have no problem showing acts of kindness, and will willingly give up a seat or open a door for someone less able-bodied than myself. But never simply because of someone's gender.

As for manners in general, just about every generation since time immemorial has predicted the end of society as we know it due to the declining moral standards and manners of its younger members. If nothing changed, we would still be covering the bare legs of pianos in case it excited the men too much to see them.

Human societys are fluid things, ever changing and adapting to the conditions of the times. I am not saying that all change is for the better, however manners are relative, not an absolute. The behaviour that we grew up with would have been viewed with similar dismay by the previous generation, and will be seen as quaint and old fashioned by the next.

People get to an age where they start to fear change, and any departure from what they are used to is bad. The cranky old fart is an archetype for a reason.

[jjjnettie]

Kindness, respect and good manners towards others is the social lubricant that enables a civilized society to run smoothly.

[naskies]

As one of your recent buyers, I assume that you're including me? Yes, I do apologise (again) for not sending you a message promptly upon receipt of the item.

When you politely asked whether the item had safely arrived, I recall immediately replying yes it had, apologising for the lack of reply, and explain the circumstances of why it happened (an honest oversight that occurred between relocating from Adelaide back to Brisbane, and receiving many different items at the same time). Looking through my message history, I can see that I replied to your messages promptly and there were multiple "thank you" messages along the way too ;)

Just to play devil's advocate... from my perspective my first impression of you was that of a very courteous seller - like the vast majority of people on IIS. Then I read (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=100486) that in response to your neighbour commenting on your scope, you decided to insult her rather than share the joys of astronomy. Furthermore, you're also quite happy to make use of other people's property without checking in with them first. Finally, I see myself (and other IIS members) being the subject of this passive-aggressive rant. Manners indeed! :lol:

Note that I'm neither offended by this thread nor trying to cause any offence. I'm just showing how relative and subjective "good manners" can be, and how people who may seem bad mannered based on limited interactions probably think of themselves as being well mannered. I try not to fret over the small things, act as well mannered as I can during my interactions with others, and don't expect others to conform to my world views.



Hear, hear! I completely agree with all of Adam's post :)

[Colin_Fraser]

Yes, I too have noticed that.
By the way, did you get the Java problem fixed on your laptop?

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=100349

[LewisM]

Now now David, don't play your guilty conscience :) I actually was NOT referring to you, I knew your circumstance etc. and we had discussed it.

As to the neighbour issue, manners is one thing, but being attacked in the first place is not going to set me in a very hospitable nature with someone. First impressions do count, regardless of what people say, and if she was going to be all hostile and narky right from the first word, well, I wasn't going to hold my tongue. She showed no manners to me, and berated me in a very sarcastic and accusative intonation, so, yes, I quipped sarcasm back at her. Each successive "incident" - mainly in her mind - I totally held my tongue and said NOTHING to her. It is more courteous and manneristic to say nothing, rather than say something at all in such circumstance. Note like I said, I have NEVER cussed at her, nor said a harsh word to her, merely one quip of sarcasm after being first berated.

[Baddad]

Hi Everyone,:)
This thread, I believe, will become bigger than Ben Hur. It is attracting more attention in an almost exponential enhancement.:lol:

Manners are important. It shows respect. It is something that the younger generation takes time to learn. They do eventually learn. I was one of the young generation once and I simply thought manners were for old fuddy duddies. I changed my ways. I believe this is the norm.
To develope polite ways as you proceed through life.;)

Through pure chance or whatever, I found that by being kind to neighbours when you arrive at a new residence was a huge advantage.

For example back in the 70's We took up residency in Wulguru (Townsville). I grew lots of vegetables, strawberries, bananas and Pawpaws. I gave all excess produce to my neighbours.:D:)

I never had a nasty neighbour. I lived in all kinds of situations and I was warned that so and so is bad. I made myself known. Gave some excess produce and all was harmonious. Sometimes it was a beer or some offer of help. It made things sweet.:)

I've told you this story to reinforce what jjj posted.:)
I've simply illustrated how I see life in jjj's words.



With a little effort you can make a friend of any sane person. First you must show that you want to be friends through good manners. It may only be a friendly wave. It does a lot to promote good relations.

Everyone where I currently live waves to each other. That was started by me when I first came to Burpengary 8 years ago. I waved to all the neighbours and it now is almost mandatory. A simple wave became contagious.:)

Good manners are not limited to opening doors and tipping hats etc. It goes further. It is the essence of harmonious social behaviour.:)

I may find myself limited in time to wish you all an enjoyable entry to the New Year. However it is forwarded to each and every one of you and that the New Year will be profitable, safe and enjoyable.:)

Happy New Year to you All. (That includes the Moderators):)

Cheers:)

[Darth Wader]

Best post in this entire thread.:thumbsup:

[rat156]

I hope you thanked him for it!

Cheers
Stuart

[Kunama]

Sounds like a cop out to me! The fact that you chose to use the phrase " .... to rub women's noses in this fact ............ " tends to negate the rest of your argument. To me opening a door for someone has naught to do with their gender, its just a courtesy hopefully received in the same vein as it is intended, they don't need to be on crutches for me to show some manners.

With thanks .........

[Waxing_Gibbous]

If I may?
Please excuse my (general) disagreement.
I find Australia to be one of the 'nicest' of the world's industrialised countries.
Specific instances of ill manners or outright hostility aside, I'm always getting 'please'd, 'thank-you'd and 'exuse-me'd. Even from teenagers!

Compared to America or Europe (has anyone met a polite Parisian?) Australia is positively brimming with decent, well-mannered people.
True, the general level of civility seems to have declined over the years as our lives have become faster and our futures less certain, but I still find that people respond well to good manners and RAOKs.

[Mariposa]

As a woman, I appreciate courtesy, but sometimes it can be also tiring, or downright scary! don't blame the women when they react negatively to your acts of courtesy, we live in a society were unfortunately, people don't trust each other, and for good reason. There are men and there are men. There are the naturally courteos, and there are the ones who just look for opportunities to take advantage.

When it comes to courtesy, I believe that it's not only for men, I'm always giving my seat to any person who may need it, older people, pregnant women, people with disabilities. Sometimes they react negatively but most of the time you hear a big thank you and a smile. You do it because it's the right thing to do, because it's part of who you are, no because somebody will thank you in return (obviously it feels very good when somebody thank you...that's a bonus!).

[TrevorW]

During one of her daily classes, a teacher trying to teach good manners, asked her students the following question:
"Michael, if you were on a date, having dinner with a nice young lady, how would you tell her that you have to go to the bathroom?"
Michael said, "Just a minute, I have to go pee."
The teacher responded by saying, "That would be rude and impolite.
"What about you Peter, how would you say it?" Peter said, "I'm sorry, but I really need to go to the bathroom. I'll be right back."
"That's better, but it's still not very nice to say the word bathroom at the dinner table."
And you, little Johnny, can you use your brain for once and show us your good manners?"
I would say, "Darling, may I please be excused for a moment? I have to shake hands with a very dear friend of mine, whom I hope you'll get introduced to right after the dinner."
The teacher fainted....

[marki]

When I was at Uni I took a female friend to the movies. We had a great time until reaching the car when it was time to go home. I went to open the passengers door and she launched in to a tirade similar to the tripe written above. I stood quietly letting her go through a very loud well practiced routine (embarrassing) and when she finally finished I explained that the door handle on my little 72 Honda civic was broken and the only way to get in the car was through the passengers side. I got into the car slamming and locking the door, slid over to the drivers side and drove off leaving her in the carpark to find her own way home. Strangely this peed her off even more and I just don't understand why, surely here was a opportunity to show her female superiority, still brings a smile to my face every time I think about it :P:D. For me opening doors or giving up a seat is second nature, it's something I have always done and will continue to do regardless of the misguided squawking of unappreciative people. The thought of displaying my male superiority over a gender that has been repressed for thousands of years never enters my head, it is just plain and simple good manners.

Mark

[astroron]

Great Post Mark,, and your reply to the quote above from post #56, I am in the same boat as you, I will continue to open doors for women and also men if I am first to come upon the door of say a club or pub ect.
Thanks for your input :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[LewisM]

Agreed Ron - I don't care which sex, creed, political affiliation or denomination the person is - if I am the first at a door, I will open it for all and sundry (to a point...when you pass off your obligation to the next similarly minded person).

I also agree with the cop out statements. The "I won't bother because of a couple previous experiences" is just a psychological coping mechanism for what is basically rejection. But thanks for saying it anyways :)

Rudeness is also a function of society. Traditionally stereotypical "rude" nationalities -French, Spanish, Koreans - have a cultural ethos and ingrained attitude towards others. So be it, in THEIR countries, but I am not going to excuse them outside their country! As the old expression, When in Rome...

[Kunama]

Its often said that the French are not friendly and yes I met many such whilst there but in general I had little trouble there.
Last time I was in Europe I found the least friendly folk were in fact in London.
The friendliest were in Wales and most polite in Monaco including one chap who I chatted to at the harbour just before he stepped onto his 200 Million dollar yacht.

[PCH]

Hey Matt, - people reading may assume you mean the good old stereo-typical London of yesteryear.

I just watched a recently filmed documentary set in London, And until I saw Big Ben, I would have bet money it was set in Lagos or Dubai or somewhere - if you get my drift. So the average level of 'manners' may well have drifted somewhat since I was last there some time ago.

Just an observation :thumbsup:

[Kunama]

We had the misfortune of having to get the train from Heathrow into the city with luggage a few of years ago, not a pleasant experience with the locals aboard the train. The next time we hired a limo. It was mostly the people on the streets, crowding footpaths having left all their manners at home.

Ended up we dumped our luggage in the hotel and jumped on the Eurostar to Paris, Nice and Monaco instead. Much nicer.

[CJ]

[QUOTE=Kunama;930084]We had the misfortune of having to get the train from Heathrow into the city with luggage a few of years ago, not a pleasant experience with the locals aboard the train.QUOTE]

In London, one of the most multicultural cities on the planet, "local" is a very broad term.

There are good and bad people in all facets of humanity. People tend to remember the unpleasant incidents.

[FlashDrive]

:lol::lol:

I probably would have said .... I need to go to the ' Little Boy's Room '

Flash ..!! :D

[Hagar]

I fail to see how so much tripe can be written about common courtesy.

If a woman doesn't want a seat then all that is required is a polite thank you but I anm happy standing up. Not some rant from an insecure woman trying to act tough.

I have been married for 36 years and my wife still appreciates this courtesy and still says thank you for such things as opening the door.

[TrevorW]

Hi Dougie, long time no hear, nice of you to pop in.

I stand for the elderly and pregnant women only nowadays, as I'm heading towards that seniors mark myself. I used to stand for women all the time in my younger days but as no one seems to GAF these days I gave up on that. I still let women enter or exit a lift before me and often they are taken by surprise by this little gesture.

[Trixie]

I agree. When I first started out at work I found it a little intimidating.

One example is the whole getting in and out of the lift. For me and many of my female colleagues, we just wanted to do our job and not be reminded of our gender all of the time. Most of the time it is just being polite and that is fine but you get some who do it in an exaggerated way with sort of an "I dare you to refuse/object/not say thank you" attitude. Now I would never be rude about it but it did irk me to have to go through that charade every single time I got in a lift. Most people will gesture to whoever is closest to get in, no probs with that. Or the person in the lift who holds it for you if they see you coming, male or female.

I found it very intimidating though when a man stands outside the lift waiting for you to enter and you are forced to run down the corridor so you don't annoy the other passengers.

Getting out you go through it again, and because you were first in you end up at the back but some men will still insist on letting you out first! So to make the ordeal easier do you just assume you will go first? Unfortunately I have seen women do this and you hear mutterings of "princess, or a femminazi who wants it both ways". You can't win!

On the lack of manners in general I really notice it if I am out with my young kids. I can understand in a way because you do see a lot of pushy mums with monster truck prams but I suppose it is a bit like cycling. Some are really rude and people become less tolerant so you end up becoming defensive which kind of feeds the cycle.

[TrevorW]

These archaic mannerisms are instilled in the 40-60 age group at a young age by an earlier generation who where raised with Victorian morals.

They are intended as a sign of respect for the role women and the aged play in society and how we are treated and treat others in our day to day lives.

One of my biggest bug bears is the way the younger generation especially in retail in this country are not taught general manners and address their customers as "mate".

I know it's an Ockerism however to me it is not appropriate to address a customer as such.

Likewise no animosity, sexual overtones or otherwise enters my mind when allowing a woman or anyone else to enter or exit first, it 's instilled in me as the respect due to that person and IMO if intimidation is felt it's often due to ones own inability to deal with the situation.

The moral fabric of society breaks down if respect for others is not instilled in us by our parents from a young age which is fundamentally taught by introducing manners and discipline.

The art of please, thank you, can I help you Sir, Madame, excuse me, beg your pardon, sorry, after you, good morning, please take this seat, will live on if we educate our children both at home and in school that if you want respect from others you have to earn it through how you treat others as you walk along the road of life.

Kind regards

[WingnutR32]

I really want to respond to everyone in this entire thread one by one, but I am at work, so shhhh, my boss doesn't know.

I went through a lot of emotions reading through the thread and being apart of the 'young generation', a lot of what I read made me feel like I was watching Today Tonight or A Current Affair.

So rather than just getting into it too deep, I am just going to say that even though I am young, I am far from discourteous. The 'young generation' of today as a whole, ranges from very courteous to completely discourteous, just the same as an entire nation does.

However, for the current young generation, it all stems from parentals not knowing how to control, deal with, bring up their kids. I have been on the bullied side at school for 12 years and left me socially and emotionally crippled by other kids. It didn't take much to see how they interacted with their own parents to see why they are like the way they are.

The other side of the coin here is that parentals are no longer allowed to bring up their own children thanks to all the political involvement nowadays. I fully agree with the label, "Nanny States", which will soon be, "Nanny Australia".

I am always courteous to any member of the public where I can be. If I am coming up to a door, I will always open it for another person be them male or female if they are entering with me.

My fiance was taken back by me opening the car door for her all the time. I never thought anything of it as it was just in my nature to do. She assumed that it would stop after the first few dates, thinking I was trying to make a good impression. I know full well that she is able to open the door on her own and in no way am I trying to say, "you woman, me man, I do this better" like I was a cro-magnon.

I will always say, "Please" and "Thank You", I will always give up my seat for anyone that needs it. If they make a big song and dance about it that very very few of the females (strong natured on equal rights) do, so be it, I am not ashamed to have asked. I will always treat anyone as an equal.

I just hope this thread keeps itself well mannered and courteous as ALL the IIS members I have dealt with are.

[adman]

I think jjj has hit it on the head.

Although I would take kindness and respect any day over manners.

Kindness and respect come from the heart, and manners should flow from that. It is possible to show good manners, but at the same time show no respect. Look at the the previous posts where the supposedly well-mannered person finds that their opening a door for a woman was not appreciated.

If you show kindness and respect to everyone regardless of their gender/race etc, you can't go too far wrong.

If you are going to hold open doors for women simply because of their gender then you better be prepared for the full range of possible responses.



the fact that women have been viewed as weaker/inferior, not that they are weaker/inferior.

Adam

[Steffen]

Indeed. Respect is far more important than an overt display of respect (genuine or fake), also known as "manners". If you respect others and empathise with their circumstances you'll naturally find the right way to interact with them.

Cheers
Steffen.

[PCH]

Totally unconnected with gender, - does anyone else here get totally miffed when they hold a door open for the next person in a busy stream of people, and that person just saunters through as if it's your job, and they don't take it off you to hold open in turn for the next person.

Before you know it, you're holding open the door for a never ending stream of people, none of whom will take the door.

When this happens now, I just let go and have often heard the person that it crashes into mutter all sorts of impolite stuff.

Go figure :shrug:

[Kunama]

ok that makes more sense ............

Cheers,
Matt

(I can't believe this thread is now on page 5....... Lewis should be banned from starting new threads ............. mods please see to it :lol::lol:

[FlashDrive]

Yep ...that's happened to me .... and as a few walk past me .... saying 'nothing ' ... as if I'm not there ...I say LOUD enough for all to hear ....GEE THANKS FOR HOLDING THE DOOR FOR ME ...to which ...I might get a casual glance back from 1 or 2 as they go their merry way.

Some people need an education on ' Thankfulness ' :poke:

Flash ..!!

[Raybot (Ray)]

Can we start a thread on modern parenting? that should keep us going for a while

[Steffen]

It's quite ill-mannered to demand gratitude. Just saying… :rolleyes:

Cheers
Steffen.

[LewisM]

Now there's gratitude. Thanks Matt :(

:)

[FlashDrive]

Steff ...no one is ' demanding ' gratitude ....this was not implied ...a simple ' thank you ' for the courteous way I held the door for them is not ' hard ' to say .... is it ......just saying also ;)

We are talking about manners here ...aren't we ..!!

Flash ..!!

[WingnutR32]

It is a catch 22, Flash...

If we hold the door open, it is good manners and respectful for the person walking through the door to say, "Thank you". However, it is not good manners, as such, for the person holding the door open to know/think that the other person should say, "Thank you"..

Damned if we do, damned if we do not :D

[asimov]

Yeah right. Most women open the door for ME before I have time to open it for them! Naturally I say thanks very much..It's so they can cop a gander at my backside..I ain't silly!..

[marki]

If she had said please don't open doors for me I prefer to do that for myself, no problem I respect that but that's not what happened. She launched into a loud rant abusing me in front of 50 or more people which I found very embarrassing to say the least. The passenger door was the only way in unless I went through the rear tailgate and even after I informed her that this was the case she still carried on as before so I left her there, I would have done the same if it had been a male. When you sink to this level I feel very little need to be polite nor will you gain my respect and if I behaved in a similar manner I could not hope to gain your respect either. she got what she disserved plain and simple and my response had nothing to do with her not appreciating the door being opened. As has been echoed throughout this thread if I am first to the door I will open it regardless of gender and if a female or male opens a door for me I always thank them not go in to a tirade as to whose function in society it is to do such a thing and start doubting my own self worth. In fact I actually feel privileged and valued when someone show's such a courteously, its like someone waving you into a lane in heavy traffic just plain good manners and always appreciated. I was brought up to believe in equality of the sexes and have never viewed it any other way. If people can't recognise a simple act of good manners then I feel very sorry for them as they are missing out on one of the few good things left in our fast declining society. Loud angry responses only belittle the person doing all the shouting and will often lead to ridicule not a gain in respect shown by others. It does more harm then good.

Mark

[FlashDrive]

Absolutely Correct ..Spot On ...!!

[FlashDrive]

Well ...all I can say is .... It's Official ...I'm ' Old School ' ;)

[astroron]

Why is it not good manners to expect someone to say thankyou for a service done :question:
I am not anyones slave:mad2:
I don't find it so hard to say thanks,so why should you:question::question::question:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[TrevorW]

In these instances I just say

"I'm not the paid doorman" and leave it at that

[Colin_Fraser]

I think everyone has manners. Some just choose when to display them and who to display them to.

[Steffen]

I'm a bit apprehensive about entering elevators, so I let others go in first. People think I'm polite… :P

Nah, just kidding :rofl:

[joe_smith]

"Why is it not good manners to expect someone to say thankyou for a service done" for example, opening a door for someone (not directed at you Ron personally just this type of view)

The way I see this, if you expect a reaction in a positive way for your action or good deed, then are you really doing it for them? or for you? if your actions are not for your own ego, then you should not expect anything in return.

" I think everyone has manners. Some just choose when to display them and who to display them to." I agree 100%

[adman]

sorry Mark - not directed at you. I had a good chuckle about your story - its a valuable lesson for us all about having a preemptive tirade before you know all the facts!

Adam

[astroron]

The way I see this, if you expect a reaction in a positive way for your action or good deed, then are you really doing it for them? or for you? if your actions are not for your own ego, then you should not expect anything in return.

Joe, No disrespect but to me that is a nonsense statement.
What I am expecting is respect for my actions not to please my ego.

I think the person would be more pissed pissed off if I let the door swing shut in their face, which has happened to me and I have let the person know in no uncertain terms what I think of their actions.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[FlashDrive]

Whole heartley agree with you Ron ...exactly my thoughts to ..!!

[Kunama]

I opened a door for a beautiful young (30?) lady at the Jindabyne post office today and as she passed she said: "Thank you very much, that doesn't happen much these days" and gave a gorgeous smile that would melt the icy crust on Titan. Made my day :)

(Actually since this thread started I have been noticing the behaviour of the locals here in the mountains, it seems that country people are more courteous than what I have seen in cities)

[Glenhuon]

I was brought up to use the words please and thank you, not in a subservient way, but to be polite to those around me, I still do. In some societies it is not done to thank someone who being paid to do a job, but if they are doing something for me, be it serving in a shop, or holding the door for me, they get my "Thank You". I also have noticed the decline in manners among all ages of people. Sad isn't it.

Bill