Whats happening in the good old USA

[TrevorW]

Another

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/15644044/dozens-including-18-kids-massacred-in-us-school/


:screwy: Very sad indeed :sadeyes:

[asimov]

Terrible stuff!

[marki]

How must the poor parents be copping, I feel sick just reading that.

Mark

[bobson]

Its so sad and disturbing. When will they do something about gun laws?

[04Stefan07]

Shocking, shocking news. I can't imagine what the parents must be going through right now.

What was just said, the US really need to do something about gun laws.

[LewisM]

No amount of gun laws/restrictions will stop murder.

There are a LOT more underlying and underpinning factors inherent in the US psyche and society that can be attributed to the issue OTHER than gun laws.

One way or another, man will always find a way to kill another.

[marki]

They would have to change their constitution and there is too much opposition for that to happen even in the light of such horrific events. Sad when an ideal is chosen over the cold hard facts of reality.

Mark

[bobson]

True, but he wouldn't be able to kill that many without guns.

People created constitution and people can change it as well. It will happen but sadly events like this have to happen before people take action.

If you watch news they just said that in China a man has stubbed 20 people in night club but none has died! Need more proof for gun laws??

[blink138]

i dont think he could have stabbed 28 people to death!
pat
edit: sorry bob didnt see your post

[OICURMT]

I hope that this is the event that changes the course of America's will to finally adopt new laws that allow us to maintain some sort of civil society.


The main problem is the pacifistic nature of we Americans and they way we change government. Most simply don't take enough interest, so the lobbyist direct change (or lack there of...) by courting politicians and placating the general population. I have noticed a new wind blowing since the 9/11. Two polar opposites are emerging, strongly pro and defiantly against.

As an American, I can say that I do love the ability to own and maintain weapons... however, I have always been about strict gun control. Every weapon I own is registered, documented and insured. While in the gun safe, they are dismantled (firing assembly are in a different safe). I do this so that if one is stolen, they cannot be used against another individual. When I live in the US, I only have one gun that's always ready to go and that's the one I carry on my body for personal protection.

Gun control in this country is quite adequate and Australians are not prevented from owning weapons. My missus recently got her weapons license in South Australia. The paperwork and scrutiny for her to possess a firearm was incredible. Maybe the USA could learn a good lesson from the Australian model.

About gun laws... the saying "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" is true. Australia is a good example of that. HOWEVER, you don't allow psychologically disturbs people to have them, where as we in the USA do... now that's what I call stupid!


I cannot see us changing the constitution, as the amount of energy involved and the requirements for that change will not be possible until the democrats get a strong upper hand in both the House of Representatives and the Senate.

SideBar: The 2nd amendment to the constitution granted the right to bear arms not in the same vein as the old English laws (self protection) but as an additional right for the people of a fledgling nation to rise up against the new government and protect the way of life originally agreed to, should the new government turn away from democracy. There has always been debate regarding whether this is really necessary in today modern democracy.

[Scorpius51]

Each of your points is true, but they do not in ANY way justify not addressing the absurd gun laws in the US. Are you suggesting that it is a good idea to have easy access to the plethora of guns in the US, particularly with so many underlying social issue? I have no problem with responsible gun ownership, but I do with such ridiculous laws.

These incidents are appalling! We probably can't stop them happening, but we can surely reduce the frequency, and impact on the lives of innocent people. If nothing is done, then it can only get worse - it certainly won't get better!

[TrevorW]

Yeah lets just keep it in perspective ie: very sad news and heartfelt sympathy for the parents.

We are not going to change what happens in the US with fervent opinion but maybe the light will eventually come on and they'll make changes.

[AndrewJ]

Not so sure there.
I remember the reaction recently when Obama mentioned trying to at least "limit" access to fully automatic assault rifles.
No one could logically complain about that,
but they did, :shrug:

Andrew

[iceman]

Deleted Zaps post and a couple that quoted it.

This certainly isn't the time for 'USA bashing'. Keep those opinions to yourself or express them somewhere other than IceInSpace.

[Forgey]

Such tragic news :(, thoughts and prayers go out to all.

[Stardrifter_WA]

It sad to think that the gun lobby in the US is so strong. Estimates, from various sources show that out of a population of 314 million people there are approximately 280 million guns in private hands; that approximately 90 guns per 100 people.

No legislator would be brave enough to try changing those laws. It will never happen, no matter how many tragedies occur, sadly.

For those that think that humans kill and that guns are not responsible are delusional. Guns make it far easier for someone to carry out vile acts when they suddenly decide to act. Modern history has shown that there are only two weapons that can be used for random acts of gruesome mass killings, guns and explosives.

As Pat (Blink 138) and others mentioned earlier, you just don't see mass stabbings, that result in mass deaths.

For those that think guns should be completely banned, just remember, there is a far far greater killer than guns and wars, for that matter, and that is the motor vehicle. It kills far greater numbers than most modern wars, put together. So, in that same vein, perhaps we should ban cars and go back to horses. Yes, I realise that would be ridiculous, but I use it to provide a little perspective. Spectacular events hi light this tragic problem, but these are relatively small when considering the greatest killer of human beings, the motor car.

My heart goes out to those parents and as a parent, I couldn't imagine a worse thing than to lose a child, let alone lose a child to such a senseless act. :mad2:

[Hans Tucker]

Sorry to correct you but it wasn't in a night club...it was 22 children he stabbed/wounded.

[TrevorW]

A nutter is a nutter is a nutter and no matter what laws are introduced someone with the mindset to carry out an act of senseless killing will find one way or another to achieve their aim.

Hans, when I first saw that post I thought they were attacked with a cigarette

[bobson]

Thanks Hans, this is even more to the point I was trying to make!

[BPO]

None of those Chinese kids died, right?

But that aside, these are all terrible things.

[Hans Tucker]

The report on the Chinese incident said only 2 of were seriously injuried, so whilst none died they all would have been mentally scarred for life by this traumatic incident as would the children from the school at the center of the US shooting. No words could ease the pain these parents are suffering, not being able to protect your kids from this sort of evil even though there was nothing they could have done.

[BPO]

But those victims in China are alive.

Think of how many people have been mentally scarred for life by the Connecticut incident.

Thank goodness the Chinese attacker didn't use a firearm.

Also, I don't think there was anything "evil" involved.

"Evil" is an abstract and simplistic fairytale concept often used by people to avoid facing harsh realities.

In my opinion.

[mozzie]

i don't wish to add any politics to this thread.but am posting this thread as seen through the eyes of a 6 and 9 year old while watching the news last night a silence come over the two of them as this story aired what should we do turn it off or see what happens!!!!!!!!!!. we let them watch and very carefully explained what had happened the the parents of those kids who wouldn't be picking up there little one's.i could see my older boy lachlan(who some here know)from astro camps was very quiet and a little shocked...but why daddy over and over..just how do you explain it...and you can't shield them from outside news as tragic as it is...just careful words and hugs and kisses to reasure them.....

we had an incident here a few weeks ago and the man is still on the run with high powered bow and arrows living in the bush around us..we tell the kids not to play out the front of our property till this is sorted..and last night i was really able to explain it better to them after the news...this is why mum and dad say things and set rules,for your safety they know understand a bit better..:(

[supernova1965]

They wouldn't have to change it if they let them have the guns and restrict access to the ammunition make the purchase of ammunition next to impossible that wont effect the constitutional right to bare arms and have strict documentation on who had what ammo as bullets are much easier to track than guns.

[leon]

I find it so hard to imagine that a Human Being can do such terrible things to another, I have no words to explain how these parents and family must feel, just heart breaking.

Leon

[alocky]

Even here in Australia you do not need a license to buy an ammunition press capable of manufacturing 200 rounds an hour. Although access to components is controlled this is not even remotely workable solution, as a resourceful person can easily circumvent the restriction. You can't fix this with a post in an Internet forum. But licensing and registering purchases so that at least someone other than a gun dealer is assessing why an individual wants to own multiple firearms would be a start.
The people who commit these acts clearly are not sane. Ideally the mental health system would be able to identify and treat them before these things happen. Now 20 or so families have to endure what must be the worst torment imaginable. I feel sick thinking about it when I look at my two little girls.
My sympathy to the community now affected.
Andrew.

[TrevorW]

Apparently the guns belonged to his mother

The perpetrated had mental health issues

Maybe in this case


a) have a licensing system that ensures people with mental health issues, schizophrenia, depression etc can't get access to guns

c) people with a criminal history can't be licensed

d) people must belong to a licensed gun club and attend regular practice sessions and undergo safety training for at least 6 months before buying a licensed handgun

c) people must have lockable secure safes where ammo and firearms are stored separately at all times

much like we have in WA

[Larryp]

The editorial of a Sydney sunday newspaper states that the U.S.A. has 87 gun deaths PER DAY!:(

[strongmanmike]

Yes an absolutely terrible incident indeed by any measure, beyond words really....

In this context, the US is not an ideal place to live for sure but it is definitely not the worst by any means when it comes to the rate of gun deaths HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate#cite_note-8) is the list

Who would want to live in El Salvador :sadeyes:

With Australia only experiencing about 1 homicide death by firearm per million people each year these days, the US with its wonderful and liberating constitution, enjoys about 30 homicides by firearm per Million :sadeyes:

The US also experiences over 7X the rate of suicides by firearm and 13X the rate of accidental deaths by firearm, compared to Australia!

.... we must be doing something right in this area :shrug: lemmi see...perhaps less guns and gun culture = less gun deaths..? pretty simple.

Mike

[MortonH]

Pretty simple, I agree.

It's undoubtedly much easier to shoot someone than, say, stab them because shooting is done at arm's length with no physical contact with the victim. I'm sure to disturbed individuals like this one it just feels like playing a video game. And the only practical way to "tackle" a gunman is with a gun of your own.

If the guns hadn't been available to this guy, he may well have killed his mother with a knife but he certainly wouldn't have been able to kill 20 kids and 6 adults without being stopped.

But the gun lovers have so much political power...

[MortonH]

Talking about bow and arrows, or crossbows, I was a bit freaked the other week when the Sydney policeman was killed near Oakville. It was within walking distance of Scheyville National park, a spot I "discovered" on Google maps recently and had taken my scopes to a couple of times not long before that incident.

[mozzie]

they had the police helicopter here looking fot him and they landed it hear our house..a week later the police were everywhere again he must have surfaced..still in hiding as we have state forest all around us..scary stuff
the kids are always in eye distance at the moment...

[Satchmo]

At the end of the day, a primary school teacher in a small town owned legal semi-automatic weapons that her deranged Son used to kill a large number of people. This was the 66th mass killing in the USA since 1999 according to ABC News ( I'm not sure how many people define mass- killing) .

It goes without saying that the USA culture and political and legal system that enables this situation has some serious work to do.

[Shark Bait]

Very true Mark, but I believe that the horse has already bolted on this one. The gates have been open for too long and there is a large number of semi-auto and auto weapons easily available. That doesn't mean they should not try.

For what it's worth, I think the Australian model strikes a reasonable balance but I can't see it being successfully copied in America.

[MrB]

Operating a gun involves very little risk to the user, it is a cowards weapon.

[Octane]

Also, you can buy assault rifles and ammunition from Walmart.

You can find them on their web site.

Can you imagine walking into Coles or Woolworths and buying weapons?

Scary.

H

[OICURMT]

Military personnel would tend to disagree.

[MrB]

Not surprised. There was a time when wars were fought with honor, face to face. Killing is becoming an emotionless push-a-button matter.
It is too easy.

[Shark Bait]

When I was at school in the 80's you could go into the local sports store and buy rifles and ammunition. Shooting used to be a sport at my high school and kids walked to school with their rifles. They were handed to the teacher before school started and handed back at the range. There were no safety breaches and all was well. Each person was responsible for their own actions and they took it seriously. It does not happen today. Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that what was normal in the past is right or wrong. Since the 80's there has been a cultural shift in Australia. I simply cannot see a similar shift in cultural attitudes happen in America.

[TrevorW]

Again lets not get off the track here

People kill people guns are just a tool when all said and done we know explosives can easily be made. He could have walked in with a bomb attached to himself and done just as much if not more damage.

Killing someone in my opinion takes someone trained to do so or someone insane enough to do so, killing another living creature to a lot of us is abhorrent

I agree whole heatedly that the system in the US sucks just way to easy for any weirdo to get a gun

However even removing handguns from the general populace has not stopped weapons being used to kill people.

In the UK you cannot be licensed to own a handgun yet handguns are now prevalent in the UK brought in illegally from Europe.

Banning such weapons would

a) put a lot of people out of work
b) force the sale of these weapons underground

Banning drugs In the US has shown how successful such bans are

What they need is a system of control, license the gun owner not just the gun.

Limit the type and number of weapons and ammunition a person can own at any one time.

Fully automatic assault rifles for the man on the street, total ban IMO.

[Hans Tucker]

Ever in your life handled and fired a weapon???? What a naive simplistic view...I will pass your views on to my military associates...god knows they need a laugh.

[Stardrifter_WA]

I agree.

There are no reasons for any private citizen to own a semi automatic weapon. It has only one purpose and we have seen what that purpose is in the latest tragedy.

The range of full and semi auto weapons available in the US is truly frightening.

[TrevorW]

Don't confuse semi automatic and automatic

semi automatic, one has to pull the trigger every time to fire a shot, automatic you only have to pull it once to fire multiple shots

Private citizens can and do own semi automatic weapons for recreational purposes and others for making a living

I do not condone a total ban on firearms, as this will only force firearms underground and more so into the hands of criminals

[TechnoViking]

Its a terrible thing that happened, and it scares the hell out of me!, almost every year something like this happens!

Why would a woman would have automatic weapons in her home? Why where they not locked in a safe?

Things like this really make me wonder where the human race is going...

[Stardrifter_WA]

Nothing has really changed James. People have been killing people since man first walked upright. The only thing that has probably changed is man continually makes it easier to do so.

[TechnoViking]

When i was young things like this were so rare, almost unheard of! I was only talking about this today with my neighbor who is in his mid 60's, and we are both completely dumbfounded by these senseless killings. I have not been watching the news since this happened as i have children around the same age as the children murdered and I really dont want to expose them to this kind of violence. Have they found out why he killed those children, any reasoning behind it?

[Stardrifter_WA]

Mass killings have happened throughout history. The biggest change today is that it is beamed into our lounge room as it happens. The biggest disadvantage of the modern age. Before, we lived in ignorant bliss.

[TechnoViking]

I must say, i miss living in ignorance then :(

[blindman]

It'not gun laws - it's all about people, and how State treats people.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Me too.

[MrB]

Yes I have.
Don't see your point?

[Hans Tucker]

Point is that labelling everyone that uses a gun a coward is simplistic, narrow minded way of thinking. In the case of this tragic incident, which was the subject of this thread, the perpetrator of this crime is a coward because he was armed and his victims were not. In a war scenario all combatants are armed so its an even playing field and I would hardly think calling someone a coward in this case is justified. I would love to see you call VC recipients Donaldson and Roberts a coward to their face rather than implying it facelessly on a forum.

[MrB]

Okay, point taken.
But perhaps while you and your military buddies are chuckling away at my expense, you will pose this question....

Which scenerio would they prefer?

To shoot at their enemy from a distance, from behind a rock, or a wall or from within the relative safety of an armoured vehicle, or
Hand to hand combat where all they and their enemy have is a knife or a sword.
This is an even more even playing field than you mention.
I am pretty confident which answer you will get.

This is my point, the gun takes away some of the risk and to a certain extent it de-humanises the killing process. It's just a distant enemy.
Be it a gun, arrow, crossbow bolt, bomb, missile... they make killing easier and less risky to the operator by largely removing them from the process.
If your only choice was to go in face to face, look them in the eye during the kill, most normal people would think twice.

[Hans Tucker]

Clearly you haven't had any combat experience or read many accounts of previous battles where there was alot of close combat gun battles (just read Roberts account) that were at distances comparable to the so called sword fighting you so revere as more nobel. The introduction of firearms makes it less risk task...hell yes...you want to survive a battle. War is inhumane no matter what tools (Sword, Knife, barehands or firearms) you use.

[MrB]

I would think(obviously not done it, but I can imagine it) even close combat gunfight is easier and less personal than having to slit someones throat or strangulation.
I wonder what percentage of the worlds guns used in daily killings are in military hands?
Even tho my original statement was not aimed at the military, and though everything you say is right, I hold my opinion.

[LewisM]

As a firearms USER and collector (mainly collector), I find many comments interesting, some typical knee-jerk reactive, and others well thought out.

As I alluded to in my post, it's not the gun laws in America so much as other underpinning societal factors. Even actor Morgan Freeman sees this:


"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

I have not watched the Idiot Box for 6 years now. Nothing is going to change my stance on that! (the only time the TVis on at home is for our 4 year old watching Play School etc)

[Satchmo]

Lewis you are guilty of the adulation of non - entities, as decribed in the quote which implies that the media is somehow guilty not the gun problem.

Who cares what actor Morgan Freeman thinks or says ?

[Scorpius51]

I think this discussion has passed its use-by time. This is an astronomy forum, not a pro/anti gun control forum. A tragedy has occurred, so let's leave the tit-for-tat arguments for another place, please!

[Kunama]

Lewis I agree with you wholeheartedly, the sensationalist way in which today's gutter quality journalists report these incidents is appalling, I think in many instances it becomes the 'lure' for these lunatics to have their one chance in life to be famous.

It is not only the USA that has suffered these horrors, remember Port Arthur, Hoddle Street, Norway, a recent mass shooting in Finland. The common 'thread' in all of these to me seems to be that the shooter was a quiet loner who did not really have a group of friends, a social misfit in many regards. Perhaps the victim of bullying getting back at society.

I recently saw a television program where somewhere in the USA a group of middle aged women and men were at a public shooting gallery firing thousands of rounds through automatic weapons as a form of "stress relief", one person being interviewed ( a female, about 40yrs) said it helped her deal with the pressures of running the family household.

Apples don't fall far from the tree!

[LewisM]

I agree that the USA needs more stringent firearms regulations - it's been SLOWLY happening for the last 15 years in little bites. It won't STOP anyone, it will just slow them down, which either gives them time to re-contemplate, or time to fuel the fire.

Nothing will change polarised minds one way or the other. And it's the difference of opinions that add variety and spice to life.

[blink138]

ha! just listening to the news before work and they had a small clip of an important man speaking in an interview and he said "god i wish (the teacher) had an m4(?) behind her desk so that when she heard the gunfire she could have grabbed it and blew his head off right there instead of having to lunge at him before...... now wait for it........ he could harm our precious children!!!?
now call me an 'ol fuddy duddy, but really? there is a very sick society right there!
so the teacher should have blown his brains all over her students and then the kids are going to be fine! whooaa! i know they would be alive..... but damn they are a mixed up people!

[blink138]

john this is the "general chat" forum!
its up to the mods to stop it if they get fed up, they have already cut (rightly) a silly rant from a member
pat

[Stardrifter_WA]

Indeed, it is an astronomy forum, but do you talk about astronomy and nothing else. I certainly don't, otherwise I would be seen as totally boring (probably am anyway). I find the discussion on this forum to be quite enlightening and engaging. After all, we are an educated or well informed lot and it is great to digest the differing opinions. I want to expand my general knowledge beyond just astronomy and this is an excellent forum to do so.

The heading of this forum is General Chat and it is, in my opinion, to discuss topical or other issues and interest "tit bits", as one does everyday with their friends.

Fortunately, there are other forum headings specifically related to astronomy for those that do not wish to discuss current events or who do not wish to discuss anything else.

Cheers Peter

[alocky]

I heard this argument a lot in the US after Port Arthur while taking fire from the locals about our insane gun buy-back (which appears to have been effective to date).
I'm actually representing Australia in a shooting event next year - so I do have a bias on gun laws, but the thought of a relatively inexperienced person opening up with another assault rifle under the unimaginable duress of such a situation is appalling - they're going to double the number of casualties pretty damn quick. Guns are easy enough to use, but even a stopwatch can create enough pressure to make you miss. Let alone a target that can return fire.
Regards,
Andrew.

[Octane]

Also, that Morgan Freeman quote is bogus.

H

[Waxing_Gibbous]

For me there is a certain irony here.
I've just got out of a fortnight in hospital having been shot!
A total accident - I was out foxing with a neighbour and he skidded in some mud just as he pulled the trigger- but one I certainly could have done without!!!
I like guns.
I have three for different situations.
I've been shooting since I was 16.
In that 35 years, I've never once felt the need to own an assault rifle or semi-auto pistol (or indeed any pistol).
There's no need for them outside of a war zone and even the police should be restricted in their use.
There can be endless dbate about mental healt and the erotica of gun violence, but had these weapons not been available to this man, its a certainty that (unless he had a bomb) he would not have been able to inflict death and injury 'on the scale he did.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the people of Newtown and hopefully this incident will bring about some change in the US gun laws.

[Scorpius51]

Fair points, guys! I stand corrected.

John

[LewisM]

Probably, but the points are valid regardless of who wrote it.

[Geoff45]

Criminals usually try to keep a low profile and are not typically involved in mass killings.

[TrevorW]

Is the person who commits a mass killing not a criminal. So what are you saying.

My argument has and always will be that a gun does not kill another person, it's just a tool.

I could make a hell of a mess if I want to with a chain saw even a modified nail gun and it's not that hard to make a flame thrower given the right tools.

More scrutiny of the gun owner licensing and security of firearms is what's required.

Killing someone with a sword may be more personal but I'd rather die quickly from a bullet wound than bleeding to death from sword wounds.

[TrevorW]

Why not, if we had the same legislation etc do you think it would be any different here, I don't think so ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_Stat es_Constitution

[LewisM]

Gun legislation and laws have done VERY little except cost a LOT of money (all the various buy backs cost the states/federal MILLIONS) and created a lot for state coiffures (a permit to acquire in QLD costs $32 per firearm. Licenses have gone astronomical in price!).

America DOES need to toughen up it's guns laws, but also as Obama points out, there are other issues just as pertinent that need revision - mental health issues etc.

Comparing the American psyche/ideals/persona to Australian ones is actually pointless, because theirs is QUITE different to ours and the two are not interchangeable.

[Moon]

Due to the stronger than expected replies, I have deleted my comments and unsubscribed from this thread.

[leon]

This debate could go on forever, what are our grand kids going to go through when we are safe 6 foot under.

Leon

[blink138]

unless i missed something terrible, i thought we were having an extremely civilised discussion on this thread and this topic
pat

[astroron]

Lewis, can you elaborate on this part of your statement:question:
Quote)
Gun legislation and laws have done VERY little except cost a LOT of money.

How many households have semi automatic rifles lying about now :question:
as was the case Before the gun legislation was brought in.

If you don't need a gun, why own one:question:
Seems it did some good for the hair do:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Quote
and created a lot for state coiffures.

[LewisM]

Ron,

Here's a little history - the world record for AIMED (accurate) shot from a BOLT ACTION rifle was 38 rounds into a 12" bullseye at 300 yards in 1 (ONE) minute in 1914. Set by British musketry instructor named Sgt. Snoxall. That included reloading, seeing the SMLE is 10 shot rifle. I personally have attempted this "Mad Minute" as it is known and ONCE managed 20 - all within the 12" bull (my shoulder hated me for a while).

Banning semi-automatic rifles did NOTHING.

Automatic firearms have been banned for civilian ownership in Australia since the 1920's.

[AndrewJ]

I knew someone with an old rusty double barrel shotgun.
They were going to give him $100 or so for it.
He went to a gunsmith, had it cleaned repolished etc etc
so it looked immaculate. cost about $150
He went back and got around $500 for it
and it got crushed:screwy:

A lot of the guns removed as part of the buyback were
probably never really a threat,
and pretty much all the illegal guns are still out there.

What would be really interesting is to see is
if the general suicide/family murder rate has dropped,
vs the emotive "by gun" rate.
If people have just found other ways to do that,
then it really hasnt achieved much compared to the money spent.
Better off funding mental health in the first place????

Dunno the answer.

Andrew

[TrevorW]

This is how hypocritical are Govts are

when the police moved away from revolvers to Glock semi-automatic pistols the used revolvers where shipped to America to be sold on the second hand market

and this was the reason behind buying Glocks given at that time

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA19960418023

it seems the revolver was an outdated inefficient deterrent

Probably enough said by me, the issue can only be resolved in the USA, personally I believe the laws in Australia are sufficient but not uniform across Australia. I also think the police should move away from licensing the gun and more towards licensing the owner.

ps: I forgot to mention that some of the guns that were purchased in the buy back scheme ended up back on the second hand market

[astroron]

You quote professional people (yes I am including you here as you seem to have a great deal of knowledge of fire arms) not some person who can pick one up at a gun shop or supermarket.
I would hazard a guess that the police would disagree with you on the statement that not having semi automatic weapons in peoples homes did nothing.:rolleyes:

Please answer the question?
If you don't need a gun, why own one:question:
BTW I was in the British Army for quite a long time, so am no stranger to High powered weapons.

[LewisM]

I don't NEED one, but I have them. I am a collector of firerams, have contributed to a few books (one coming out next week).

It is still a licensed right in Australia to OWN firearms. There is also a licensed right to CARRY and USE firearms.

Same can be said - you don't need a telescope - why own one? :) None of us NEED one.

[Bassnut]

Telescopes don't kill people :thumbsup:

[astroron]

Fred, you took the words right off tip of my typing finger:lol:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Ummm, such a sweeping statement is not strictly correct, sadly.

You only have to look to Mexico to see that that statement is totally untrue, as thousands have died from drug wars; 15,000 + in 2010 alone! Many of them totally innocent too.

Drug war related homicides in the US are also on the rise. One statistic shows that an estimated 5700 people have been killed in drug wars in the US over a five year period.

As for Australia, have you forgotten what has happened in Melbourne over the years. They have made several mini series on that subject. Not that I watched them, but I think they were all criminals?

Cheers Peter

[Shark Bait]

I heard a report on the radio that President Obama has stated that 'America must change'. This was during an address to the families who have lost a loved one. I remain a skeptic as to what he can do if congress does not back his resolve. I'd like to be proven wrong, but we have heard this all before.

As mentioned earlier, I think Australia has got the balance right regarding gun laws. How a similar model could be successfully translated across all the states of America is beyond me.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Sorry Lewis, you can hardly compare the two, that is just being ridiculous. :D I do need mine! Telescope, that is :D

However, I do agree with you to a point, as I am also a gun owner. I also had semi-auto weapons, and as a gun owner, I never really saw the point. Why would anyone need a semi-auto? I certainly didn't, but had them nevertheless; all because I could. I also saw the need to remove them from society and happily gave mine up.

Also, it must be pointed out, to balance the argument, that the Port Arthur and Hoddle St massacres were carried out with "illegal" weapons anyway. Having strict gun laws are a start, but it would not stop people accessing illegal weapons. This has been the case in recent Sydney shootings too.

Cheers Peter :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Here is an interesting article about gun related death in Australia from the Sydney University.

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/news/news/2006/Dec/061214.php

"The risk of dying by gunshot has halved since Australia destroyed 700,000 privately owned firearms, according to a new study published today in the international research journal, Injury Prevention."

[OICURMT]

Stats for the USA ... http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

[Stardrifter_WA]

Interesting stats compared to Australia's. Here is the Australian Bureau of Criminology http://aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/261-280/tandi269/view%20paper.html

The fact is, per head of population, we have less deaths related to firearms, and that is directly related to firearm access which is more dofficult in Australia than many parts of the World, including America.

We can throw stats back and forth all day it will still equate to more guns, or easy access to guns, means more deaths.

Cheers Peter

[TrevorW]

Interesting stats re poisoning

All poisoning deaths

Number of deaths: 41,592
Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.5

All firearm deaths



Number of deaths: 31,347
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.2

what this doesn't tell you is things like



a) suicides
b) criminals killed by police

c) people killed in gang or drug related activities

d) police killed in line of duty
e) acts of murder/manslaughter
f) innocent bystanders
g) accidental death



the problem with stats is they can be portrayed in various ways to incite a reaction based on the targeted audience.

This is from the Australian stats

An examination of firearm related deaths in Australia between 1991 and 2001 found a 47 per cent decrease in numbers, An examination of firearm related deaths in Australia between 1991 and 2001 found a 47 per cent decrease in numbers, with a fall in the number of suicides accounting for the largest part of that decrease. Nine out of 10 firearm related deaths involved males. Nine out of 10 firearm related deaths involved males

Most of the 47% reduction came about due to the fall in the number of suicides by firearms.

A wonder if there was a corresponding increase by other means in the suicide rate.:question:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Absolutely agree Trevor.

For instance, the poisoning deaths may not be all as a result of criminal intent but rather the total number of people who got food poisoning.

If it is food poisoning, I may be very careful where I eat when in the US next year. :sadeyes:

Cheers Peter

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Sorry Lewis, but you couldn't be more wrong.
There have been NO mass kilings in Oz since the ban on auto and semi-auto weapons.
My birth country, Canada, my now-home Australia, and my adopted home, the UK have had anti-assault weapon legislation in place for years and mass-gun killings have become virtually unheard-of.
Only Rambo wannabees and mouth-breathing redneck simpletons need or want 'Tactical" weapons to make them feel like men.

Saddos that dress in cammo gear and want to live out some sort of unsavoury soldier-boy fantasies need to be first on the "banned on mental health grounds" list.
If you can't kill what you shoot at with one shot, you have no business owning a gun.
I've never had to shoot anything more than once, and I don't particularly enjoy doing it.
So tell me what the pressing need is for a semi-auto with the a 10 shot magazine.
If you want to collect military firearms, fair enough, but there's no need to have them active. Removing the firing pin or plugging the barrell will leave you with an authentic item without the danger.
Had this nutter not had access to legally bought, military-type firearms he would not haver been able to kill as many as he did.

No-one needs these horrible things and no-one should have them.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Sorry Peter, not strict true, although rare, they are hardly "almost unheard of".

The last one in the UK was in June 2010 when Derrick Bird killed 12 people in a shooting rampage through Cumbria and there were two others, in recent history. There are also instances of gang violence, resulting in deaths from firearms, although stabbings are also very high in the UK.

It must be said that gun crime isn't the only crime that have claimed many lives. There are also serial killers, e.g. Dr Shipley (UK) who is estimated to have killed 250+ people, although this isn't in the same category as gun crime, but no less chilling.

Canada isn't free of such violence either. The last mass shooting in Canada was only six months ago in July 2012 where two were killed and 23 injured after a shooting rampage in Toronto. There are also drug related wars that have mass shootings as well, throughout Canada. Where there are drugs involved there are firearms, it seems?

And, as for Australia, wrong again, as there have been "bikie" related shootings, of which there have been a few, as well as drug related shootings. Mostly, these offences have been committed with "illegal" firearms, so tough laws do not prevent such events, but they do minimise a deranged person picking up a firearm and going nuts. At least here, particularly in the West, all guns must be in a gun safe.

Cheers Peter

[doppler]

This might be off center but the us gun supporters would argue that the principal should have had a weapon to protect the school (she did try to tackle the offener but unarmed). In Australia only the criminals and police have the weapons in America just about anyone can have them. I certinally felt safer before Howards compulsory gun buy back. If I find a home intruder after my daughter I have to use a hamer

[Stardrifter_WA]

Rick, are you saying that you feel safer with semi-auto weapons in the community? You feel safer with a gun? Where do you live :eyepop:

You should feel safer without them. It didn't mean you couldn't own a firearm, it just meant that you couldn't have one that shoots many multi-rounds a minute. I can shoot almost as many rounds with my leaver-action rifle, and with about as much accuracy, than I could with my semi-auto. Mostly because the semi-auto had less rounds in the mag than my leaver-action.

I don't particularly feel safer having a gun. I would hate to be in a situation where I needed a gun to protect myself either. It certainly isn't why I have them!

Cheers Peter

[TrevorW]

There is no ban in Australia on owning a semi-automatic weapon you can obtain one by going through the necessary licensing requirements.

Howard's gun buyback IMO was a knee jerk reaction to the Port Arthur massacre, many gun owners handed there guns in because they were getting more for them on the buyback scheme than they could have on the second hand market and couldn't be bothered getting them licensed.

Lets hope Obama spends the time to make legislative changes that can placate both sides of the argument.

It also amazes me how people confuse semi-automatic and automatic weapons.

In Australia you can own a semi-automatic weapon and the magazine must not exceed 10 runs.

The good shooter could discharge a 10 round semi-automatic in 5-10 seconds.

A fully automatic weapon the likes used in the US killings could hold 30 rounds or more magazine capable of being discharged under 5 seconds.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Trevor,

I am surprised by your comment that semi auto weapons are not banned. As I understand it, they are a category C item and are only available to "primary producers" and "occupational shooters", such as professional roo shooters and the like.

I know that I cannot just go buy one; mind you, I have no use for one anyway.

I agree with you about the Howard Government reaction. The real interesting thing about Pt Arthur was that the gun was allegedly a gun that was handed in during a gun amnesty in Victoria, as far as I am aware. If correct, it was supposed to have been destroyed, so how did it end up in the hands of Bryant? And, furthermore, he had it illegally anyway, so the gun laws were definitely an over reaction, IMO.

Also interest in the gun buy back. I know of several who ended up with more guns, not less. From the money they received they went out and bought more, as did I, although I have now mostly divested myself of them now. I am thinking of getting rid of the rest anyway. Just can't justify the licence fee any more. I let my explosives licence (Shotfirers Permit) go a couple of years ago for the same reason. Every time I went to renew, I had to get a National Police Clearance, an added cost of $43 on top of the licence fee. Seemed a waste of money, for something I would never use again.

Cheers Pete

[doppler]

[QUOTE=Stardrifter_WA;926063]Rick, are you saying that you feel safer with semi-auto weapons in the community? You feel safer with a gun? Where do you live :eyepop:

At the time we lived on a property in rural S.A There were few occasions when people would drive through sometimes late at night, rabbit shooters from the city I guess, and some of the locals were a bit strange as well. I only had semi autos at the time and never relplaced them after the buy back mainly because the licence fees got too high. Our women knew where the guns were and how to use them. We now live in a large country town where the only crime is lads hooning in their cars.

[TechnoViking]

I think guns have a place in a rural community, especially for land holders. I have a rifle which i use for vermin control and for humanly dispatching roos that have been run over and left to die slowly, I hate doing it, it saddens me greatly that people hit animals and don't stop to check pouches or to call someone to put the poor creatures out of their misery. Just this year i have had to dispatch 6 roo's 8 wallabies and 1 wombat, but i also saved 2 Joeys by checking the roo's pouch!!
But getting back to topic, automatic and semi automatic guns should only be supplied and used by the armed forces, In the 5 years i have lived on my 100 acres i have never been in a situation where a semi or auto would be needed, But the main problem with the U.S is their gun culture, I hate to bring religion into this conversation, but telling Americans to give up their automatic weapons would be like asking them to give up their religion which is an impossible task.
The gun debate is one of those debates that will never end, both sides wont budge from their moral standing, the only solution i could see is turning each school into a prison like building with armed guards, razor wire and armed security checkpoints, it would be the only way that children could truly be safe in an American school!

Just watching the news this morning to see 2 houses shot at in two different states in one night, scares the hell out of me, and makes me glad i live 300kms from the nearest city!!!!
and for the argument that professional shooters need semi autos... bollocks!! What they need are suppressors, to dull the noise from the muzzle, but unfortunately stupid, non informed politicians think that suppressors on a large caliber gun makes them silent (like Hollywood movies), so now they are illegal...ZZZzzz...

anyway that's my 2.2cents (including G.S.T)

[Stardrifter_WA]

This is a surprise, America isn't the worst for gun deaths, as it rates quite low. Gun deaths in the US have actually been falling. It is a surprise who is the worst though. I would never have picked it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20759139

[OICURMT]

Having worked and lived in most countries in Latin America, I can tell you that Caracas is one of the worse places to live if you want to live... (I took a job in Puerto La Cruz to get away from Caracas) and don't even get me started on Rio and Säo Paulo... WOW!!! I felt like I had eyes permanently watching me...

[Stardrifter_WA]

So, not a good place to holiday in then? :P

[LewisM]

Peter,

As a long term gun owner, I only ever had 1 semi-automatic rifle and that was in the collection (a Us M1 Carbine). I have, as you, never found a reason to own one for actual use. On my licenses I can go out and legally by a semi-auto for the collection (or even a full-auto), but they must be rendered deactivated (my collector license allows me to own ANY weapon category). My shooter's license also is endorsed appropriately for Cat C ,Cat D and H but I have no need. I have only 2 rifles on my shooter's licence - a .22 bolt action I use for serious target use, and a 1942 German K.98 (a U.S veteran WW2 souvenir) I use for military style target shooting. Everything else is on my collector licence.

Semi auto firearms are still openly available to properly licensed individuals in Australia - www.usedguns.com.au for a start - though naturally the price has skyrocketted.

And the blackmarket is rife with any firearm you want. ANY! And remarkably openly too - brazen in fact.

A gun is just an object. It's purpose is primarily to kill. Yet it takes a human mind to set the motions to do so. Any object - even a telescope - can be made to kill in the hands of someone determined to harm. Fix the broken minds first.

[Raybot (Ray)]

"Fix the broken minds first."

How exactly do you do that ? How do you even identify them ?
Its much more pragmatic to tighten gun controls

[LewisM]

Not disputing the fact US gun regulation needs MAJOR improvement. In the end though, laws and regulation slows down a determined individual only.