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Old 20-10-2011, 10:00 AM
Stevec35 (Steve)
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Did I miss out on discovering something?

Hi to all

Some of you may have seen an ESO press release yesterday announcing the discovery of some new globular clusters by the VISTA infrared survey telescope. One of these was near UKS1 and given that I had taken a near infrared image of UKS1 I thought I would see if it was on my image and it certainly is. I noticed the little knot of stars at the time and did post a query about its identity and was told "don't worry about it - it's only an asterism". Oh well - maybe I should have pursued it more vigorously.

This link shows the VISTA image and my shot cropped to approximately the same size. The VISTA image is in different IR bands so the stars don't match up exactly.

Cheers

Steve

http://members.pcug.org.au/~stevec/u...sta_GCL001.jpg
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  #2  
Old 20-10-2011, 10:33 AM
TrevorW
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steve contest it at least you may be acknowledged as co-discoverer
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Old 20-10-2011, 10:53 AM
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crafty beggers.....
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  #4  
Old 20-10-2011, 11:28 AM
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madbadgalaxyman (Robert)
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Steve,
your observation of the cluster which later was "discovered" by Vista shows how easy it is to miss something that may be important.

I have mentioned, previously, Westerlund 1, which is a young star cluster of similar mass to a globular star cluster, though it is obscured by over 10 mags of visual extinction from foreground dust in our own Galaxy......so it is quite conceivable that there are other similar clusters hiding somewhere within the disk of the Milky Way......and even the nearest part of the near-infrared is useful for penetrating the dust, as you have found in your interesting observation!

(Westerlund 1 is likely to be a bona fide "young globular")

Best Regards, Robert

It might be hard for you to claim prior discovery of the globular, in that we usually do not credit Galileo with the discovery of Neptune, despite the fact that he noticed it within a telescopic field.

Last edited by madbadgalaxyman; 20-10-2011 at 11:31 AM. Reason: more info
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  #5  
Old 20-10-2011, 11:44 AM
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Yep.. on your image it definitely looks like globular - not many asterisms show that reddish colour, so characteristic for globular clusters.
You should pursue this.
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  #6  
Old 20-10-2011, 12:02 PM
Poita (Peter)
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I'm with Bojan on this one, I'd definitely pursue it.
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Old 20-10-2011, 12:06 PM
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SkyViking (Rolf)
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Very interesting, and what a great UKS-1 image you've got by the way!
I'd say pursue it as well, you never know.
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  #8  
Old 20-10-2011, 12:47 PM
Alchemy (Clive)
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Depends on who you made the original query to. If it's just us, then it's tough love, but if it was the officials then peruse it.

Probably like supanovas you've got to be the first one to claim it not see it.
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  #9  
Old 20-10-2011, 02:07 PM
Stevec35 (Steve)
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Thanks for the encouraging words guys. Of course the real discovery is that the little knot of stars is a globular which I have no way of determining. The group I sent it too was a mob called deep sky hunters who specialize in perusing images of all types for new objects. Perhaps I might send ESO my image though. You never know.

Cheers

Steve
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Old 20-10-2011, 02:15 PM
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strongmanmike (Michael)
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What was the date of the ESO press release announcement? Was it before or after you contacted the deep sky hunters group with your discovery?

If you brought attention to it first and you have proof of the post with a date - mate you are at least equally one of the discoverers in my mind

Mike
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  #11  
Old 20-10-2011, 04:30 PM
Stevec35 (Steve)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongmanmike View Post
What was the date of the ESO press release announcement? Was it before or after you contacted the deep sky hunters group with your discovery?

If you brought attention to it first and you have proof of the post with a date - mate you are at least equally one of the discoverers in my mind

Mike
Thanks Mike. The ESO release was yesterday. I contacted the deep sky group in late July 2010 after taking the image on 4 July 2010. I've emailed them again so we'll see what happens. These guys are supposed to know all the tricks regarding new discoveries. I'm off to NZ on Saturday for a short trip so I might not know the outcome for a few days.

Cheers

Steve
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Old 20-10-2011, 05:22 PM
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Best of luck! Hope you do get some credit for it!
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  #13  
Old 20-10-2011, 05:42 PM
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Great thread Steve, makes what we do have some importance sometimes!

John.
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Old 20-10-2011, 07:03 PM
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It is more than just seeing "something" you also need to prove it.
A group reported they found a supernova in M31, it turned out be a brighter asteriod. For a supernova we need to get a specturm of the suspect to confirm what it is. As well we take multiple images to prove the "star" hasn't moved or is a camera defect.

Brendan
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  #15  
Old 21-10-2011, 09:38 AM
Stevec35 (Steve)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderchildobs View Post
It is more than just seeing "something" you also need to prove it.
A group reported they found a supernova in M31, it turned out be a brighter asteriod. For a supernova we need to get a specturm of the suspect to confirm what it is. As well we take multiple images to prove the "star" hasn't moved or is a camera defect.

Brendan
Yes, that's quite true for things like supernovas but this is a different situation. I have an image of this globular taken almost 18 months before the ESO release and I don't think you could mistake it for a camera defect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hothersall View Post
Great thread Steve, makes what we do have some importance sometimes!

John.
Thanks John

Quote:
Originally Posted by troypiggo View Post
Best of luck! Hope you do get some credit for it!
Thanks very much. We'll see what happens but realistically I don't hold out that much hope.
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  #16  
Old 21-10-2011, 04:29 PM
PeterM
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Speaking with no authority at all and as usual this is long…. seems to me you have an independent pre-discovery image of a non transient object. Well picked up I reckon.


This happens a lot with transient objects like supernova and the pre-discovery image only supports by way of confirmation whoever first reported the discovery to the official body charged with announcing them. In our case for SN that’s CBAT. If you find an object in your image after a discovery announcement, that doesn't add you to the official discoverers, but for many transient (SN, Comet etc) discoveries pre-discovery images can be very valuable indeed ie the object brightened since the pre discovery image.


The Yahoo Deep Sky Hunters note on their site “A mailing list dedicated to the exchange of useful information between amateur and professional astronomers.
Our emphasis is on the discovery of new Deep-Sky objects.”
As they exchange information with professional astronomers regarding the discovery of new Deep-Sky Objects then I guess since you pointed this out a long time prior to any announcement and depending on how you worded your post in July last year then maybe they can go into bat for you. If it’s worded well and it points to a discovery then what have you got to lose. Why not write to ESO and send them your image and the details. They may be very supportive of amateurs. Ask the question

And if it's any encouragement here's what happened with SN2009J the one I call my .5 discovery out of my 2.5. I found it about 1 hour before it was announced and I put it on the Yahoo Supernova group page asking if anyone else could image it. No response and having just the one (he says) discovery under my belt at that stage I was not game to send it direct to CBAT. Sure enough just after midnite our time, just as I was about to report it, CHASE in Chile got credit for it in the announcements from CBAT. Bugger, bugger, bugger.x1000.... However I did have a date stamped report prior to any announcement and was encouraged by the great Bob Evans to pursue it with a well worded and factual email, dates etc, let the umpire decide and several days later was acknowledged as an independent discoverer.

I reckon you could write a good article for Australian Sky & Tel and have it published with your image next to or overlaid with the ESO one (with permission of course). This is the sort of stuff I reckon Gregg Bryant should be straight onto. I would love to read the full account of your find.
Either way, whatever comes of it I say great work in spotting something different in your image, more amateurs should be scrutinizing their images for transient and non transient objects and then knowing “who ya gonna call”.

Below are links relating to what to report / how to report transient objects.
http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/WhatToReport.html
http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/DiscoveryInfo.html

Last edited by PeterM; 29-10-2011 at 05:32 PM. Reason: added independent
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  #17  
Old 24-10-2011, 09:16 PM
Ross G
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Well done Steve and good luck.

Ross.
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  #18  
Old 29-10-2011, 09:19 AM
Stevec35 (Steve)
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Thanks Ross and Peter. Apologies for the delay in replying but I've only just returned from a short trip to NZ.

I queried it on the deep sky hunters group back in July 2010 but didn't get any significant response. More recently Sakib Rasool on the dsh group said I should write to Dr Dante Minniti who leads the survey team and I got this response:

Dear Mr Crouch,
This is very interesting, and thanks for the excellent image.
Copying this to my colleagues so they know the full story.
We do not mind at all that you are named codiscoverer!
My father is also a serious amateur astronomer, this is why I got into Astronomy.
With best regards,
Dante

To say the least this sounds very encouraging
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  #19  
Old 29-10-2011, 11:14 AM
PeterM
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Absolutely brilliant Steve!
As we have found through BOSS all the professional astronomers we have come into contact with have been so very supportive of the contributions amateurs make.
Really, really happy for you. Lets us know when "Crouch's Object" or whatever becomes officially known as joins the ranks of other notable amateur deep sky discoveries - Mcneills Object, Murrell 1 etc,etc .
PeterM.
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  #20  
Old 29-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Stevec35 (Steve)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM View Post
Absolutely brilliant Steve!
As we have found through BOSS all the professional astronomers we have come into contact with have been so very supportive of the contributions amateurs make.
Really, really happy for you. Lets us know when "Crouch's Object" or whatever becomes officially known as joins the ranks of other notable amateur deep sky discoveries - Mcneills Object, Murrell 1 etc,etc .
PeterM.
Thanks very much Peter. I think the name of the thing will stay the same and the best I can hope for is just to be a co-discoverer. After all the real discovery is that it's a globular, something which I can't determine myself.

Cheers

Steve
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