Meade at Andrews

[mick pinner]

it seems that Andrews will be selling Meade telescopes from August.

[allan gould]

That may be very interesting - thanks for the headsup Mick.

[MikeyB (Michael)]

Andrews' website says they'll be offering Meade gear with a two year warranty - double the present duration, I believe.

[mic_m (Michael)]

This is great news! Andrews’s prices are usually the best in Australia so it will provide some excellent price competition for Meade gear.

[mick pinner]

l'm just interested in seeing what buying power Andrews will have, if any, and if this reflects in the pricing. not that l have a problem with the current Meade dealer l buy off.

[JethroB76 (Jeff)]

Originally Posted by MikeyB

Andrews' website says they'll be offering Meade gear with a two year warranty - double the present duration, I believe.

Is this because it won't come with an official Meade warranty and they're providing their own warranty, extended to two years?

[stephenb (Stephen)]

Should be interesting.... Good luck to them. With more dealers in the market, the winner will be the consumer.

[davewaldo]

I just spoke to someone at Andrews (might have been Lee?) and he says his prices will be similar or a bit less than the "other blokes" for the Meade scopes. But that Andrews will be including a 2 year warranty. Sounds like an interesting time ahead

[mic_m (Michael)]

Originally Posted by davewaldo

I just spoke to someone at Andrews (might have been Lee?) and he says his prices will be similar or a bit less than the "other blokes" for the Meade scopes. But that Andrews will be including a 2 year warranty. Sounds like an interesting time ahead

Hmmm… the current prices for Meade equipment appear to be quite steep. I’m a reflector person so I will use reflectors in my example to demonstrate my point. The LB16s cost between A$2599 and A$3000 in Australia which is very high when compared to the US price of US$1849; A$2100. The implied exchange rate from the lowest LB16 price is A$1 = US$0.71 (1849/2599). This would suggest that these telescopes were bought by distributers some time ago. Given these scopes sell in the US for US$1849 (A$2100), and are shipped all the way from Taiwan to the US and include a built in profit margin at that price, I don’t see why Meade telescopes here should cost so much more (unless there is an intermediary inflating the price). Given the AUD is strong and has been for some time, one would expect much lower prices from current stock shipments.

I would have expected Andrews’s prices to be better than “a bit less” than others. Take the following examples. The 12” GSO dob in the US is priced at US$799 (A$908), Andrews pricing for that scope is A$899. In the US the pricing for the Sky-Watcher 12” collapsible dob is US$995 (A$1131), Andrews pricing is A$1199. These are very fair prices; they match up with what those in other parts of the world are paying. Given the price of the Lightbridge 16 is US$1849 (A$2100), and assuming Andrews pricing of Meade products is comparable to their pricing of GSO and SW, I would have guessed that this might mean a LB16 at around A$2200. At that price, dealing with its large size and spending a bit of time and money fixing up its problematic primary cell may well have been worth it!

[OICURMT]

This is why I would never buy a scope here in Australia... bang for the buck just isn't there...

But please don't do as I do... I've got a scope back in the USA that's never experienced first light.. lol

[PeterM]

Gotta speak out here, for those who think dealers in Oz are making a killing then why not open your own store.
Simple fact is much of the argument falls around the exchange rate with simply no idea of the true transport, import costs etc. Then add local warranties etc.
Sure I work in the industry that's no secret but I tire of the continual overpricing nonsense I read. Dealers in Oz are here to make a fair living, they provide the touchy feely stuff and free advice that some use to their advantage before sometimes buying elsewhere, that's ok nobody is twisting anybodys arm. And then of course when something goes wrong with equipment bought elsewhere (usually overseas) they often become the first call for help.
Many dealers often support the many events around Oz with substantial sponsorships for raffle prizes, great advice and hands on viewing of new equipment.

In general in over 30 years of buying locally I have found Australian dealers provide a great resource and service.

As an example of high overseas postage costs I recently ordered a 250gig hard drive of data. for US $219 to complement a very well known planetarium programme I had just downloaded. At about the size of a small box of tissues the real postage costs to that seller to send by 7-10day delivery? $95US dollars! So go figure.

PeterM.

[sejanus (Gavin)]

At about the size of a small box of tissues the real postage costs to that seller to send by 7-10day delivery? $95US dollars! So go figure.

I imagine companies get better rates then - I often buy camera lenses from o/s and the box they come in is a *lot* bigger than a tissue box and is usually about $50-$60 usd by 3-5 day shipping.

Also in my company (photography) I get lots of very heavy & large wedding albums sent to me from California and it's about $70 usd and gets here in 5 days.

[Ian Robinson]

Just to chime in here.

Very few local dealers buy their stock as One-Ofs or have it shipped from the manufacturer by 5day air-post or aircargo. ESPECIALLY BULKY stuff like telescopes.
The volumemetric mass on OTAs is murderous. So telescopes come by surface freight.

They order in BULK lots and it's shipped over by surface freight (in a container) and for the majority of shop front dealers and mailorder dealers ,they will order new stock maybe 3 or 4 times a year.

Prices here reflect large margins.

[davewaldo]

Originally Posted by mic_m

Hmmm… the current prices for Meade equipment appear to be quite steep. I’m a reflector person so I will use reflectors in my example to demonstrate my point. The LB16s cost between A$2599 and A$3000 in Australia which is very high when compared to the US price of US$1849; A$2100. The implied exchange rate from the lowest LB16 price is A$1 = US$0.71 (1849/2599). This would suggest that these telescopes were bought by distributers some time ago. Given these scopes sell in the US for US$1849 (A$2100), and are shipped all the way from Taiwan to the US and include a built in profit margin at that price, I don’t see why Meade telescopes here should cost so much more (unless there is an intermediary inflating the price). Given the AUD is strong and has been for some time, one would expect much lower prices from current stock shipments.

I would have expected Andrews’s prices to be better than “a bit less” than others. Take the following examples. The 12” GSO dob in the US is priced at US$799 (A$908), Andrews pricing for that scope is A$899. In the US the pricing for the Sky-Watcher 12” collapsible dob is US$995 (A$1131), Andrews pricing is A$1199. These are very fair prices; they match up with what those in other parts of the world are paying. Given the price of the Lightbridge 16 is US$1849 (A$2100), and assuming Andrews pricing of Meade products is comparable to their pricing of GSO and SW, I would have guessed that this might mean a LB16 at around A$2200. At that price, dealing with its large size and spending a bit of time and money fixing up its problematic primary cell may well have been worth it!

None of these calculations factor in GST. If Meade has to be sourced from the US, and then sent here your price $2100AU becomes $2310 with GST, which is much closer to current rates (and this factors in no shipping fee from the US). The reason GSO and SW equipment can be sourced at similar rates to the US is because we can get it direct from the factory. If Meade cannot be sourced from the factory than I think the current prices are not too far off. I really don't think telescope stores are making a killing. I know I wouldn't be keen to start a astronomy store

[mic_m (Michael)]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Gotta speak out here, for those who think dealers in Oz are making a killing then why not open your own store.
Simple fact is much of the argument falls around the exchange rate with simply no idea of the true transport, import costs etc. Then add local warranties etc.
Sure I work in the industry that's no secret but I tire of the continual overpricing nonsense I read. Dealers in Oz are here to make a fair living, they provide the touchy feely stuff and free advice that some use to their advantage before sometimes buying elsewhere, that's ok nobody is twisting anybodys arm. And then of course when something goes wrong with equipment bought elsewhere (usually overseas) they often become the first call for help.
Many dealers often support the many events around Oz with substantial sponsorships for raffle prizes, great advice and hands on viewing of new equipment.

In general in over 30 years of buying locally I have found Australian dealers provide a great resource and service.

As an example of high overseas postage costs I recently ordered a 250gig hard drive of data. for US $219 to complement a very well known planetarium programme I had just downloaded. At about the size of a small box of tissues the real postage costs to that seller to send by 7-10day delivery? $95US dollars! So go figure.

PeterM.

Originally Posted by davewaldo

None of these calculations factor in GST. If Meade has to be sourced from the US, and then sent here your price $2100AU becomes $2310 with GST, which is much closer to current rates (and this factors in no shipping fee from the US). The reason GSO and SW equipment can be sourced at similar rates to the US is because we can get it direct from the factory. If Meade cannot be sourced from the factory than I think the current prices are not too far off. I really don't think telescope stores are making a killing. I know I wouldn't be keen to start a astronomy store

Davewaldo, you are indeed correct that I didn’t include GST, which will certainly increase the price; my original figure should realistically be $2310 (2100x1.10) for the LB16 at the current exchange rate.

Davewaldo, where did you get your information about where Meade products are shipped form? I am under the impression that Meade products are sourced directly from their factory in Asia. This information comes from Meade dealers in Australia that I have spoken to and it is often purported in online telescope forums. If anyone has definitive information to the contrary please inform all of us; it would certainly clear up what is otherwise a common misconception.

For anyone with the information, please also tell us all how the transport/shipping costs of Meade equipment from Asia to Australia are any different (more) than shipping a Meade product from Asia to the US? Remember the figure of US$1849 for the Lightbridge 16 in the US includes all transportation and importation costs (including local ground transport to the dealer). Why would this cost any more in Australia than it does in the US? Also included in the US price of US$1849 is warranty assistance, customer service before and during the sale and after sales service from the Meade distributer that the product is acquired from. This includes any theoretical salaries that are paid to staff at the local US dealer that assist with the sale or provide any after sale service to the consumer. There is an all inclusive margin factored in to the price of the product to cover these costs asociated with selling. There is also a dealer margin that is factored into the price as well. Why should Australians expect any different?

The preceding is what I do know and what I can intelligently speak about and rationalise as a consumer, I don’t however know how to price terms like “etc”, PeterM, which you have used twice to justify Australian pricing, just what are we all paying for when we buy a telescope with etc included in the price? The term “etc” could mean anything; it is totally unbounded! This is a part of the problem; there are people in the industry like you that expect consumers to be content with prices that dealers charge when terms that are beyond vague like etc are used to justify pricing. More transparency in pricing is key; if people knew what they were paying for and why they were paying it, there would be much fewer discussions here complaining about price.

Also, what is this “touchy feely” stuff that telescope dealers in Australia provide and how does it differ from the “advice” which you have also mentioned twice in your justification of Australian pricing. And how does this advice differ from the advice that local dealers in the US and every other country provide – how much of the price variation does this account for and why does it cost so much more than what is offered in other countries?

PeterM, I’m not sure what you mean when you say that local dealers provide assistance with products purchased elsewhere - usually overseas, you say. Based on my experience, anyone taking a telescope or any other piece of their faulty of equipment to a dealer to be fixed, that is not under the warranty of that dealer, will pay for it, and rightly so. When I was a beginner, a local astronomy store chard me $50 to collimate my reflecting telescope, so given the price I was charged for this basic task I am sure that if a dealer spent time working on anyone’s equipment that is not under their own dealer warranty it will cost the owner. I could be wrong on this point, but if I am, I have to ask; why should I pay more for someone else getting free assistance with their equipment without dealer warranty? This notion seems absurd; your saying that dealers charge their customers more for their products because they freely assist others that have purchased their products elsewhere! This is wrong.

PeterM, you also say that dealers give away equipment for raffles, indeed this is true, and a wonderful thing. However, vendors in the US and other countries do this also, so if everyone is doing this then why are Australian prices more than overseas prices as a result? If margins are tight in Australia and providing equipment for raffles means significantly increasing the price of goods sold to paying customers, why give away such expensive equipment, why not something a bit cheaper? Regarding raffles, if the cause is worthy, people will support it regardless of prizes, I know I do. Further, these “give aways” count as a tax deduction and supplying the equipment for raffles often benefits the vendor by creating vendor awareness; increasing sale volume.

The reason that a lot of people use the exchange rate as the basis of price comparison is because there really does not seem to be any additional cost to selling astronomy equipment here than there is in the US or UK or Canada (which all have prices that are largely consistent), so the converted US or UK or Canadian price (less VAT, for the UK and Canada) plus Australian GST is a convenient approximation as to what one might expect as being reasonable.

PeterM, you have used words “nonsense” and the term “no idea” to describe the contents of my last post and others like it, that’s fine that’s your opinion, but I feel consumers should be entitled to question the prices that they pay and should especially do so when there is vagueness or discrepancies that are apparent in product pricing.

[davewaldo]

Hi Mic_m,

I admit its only my opinion that Meade scopes in Aus would be sourced from the US. For instance, I believe GSO make the lightbridge, but I find it hard to believe they would be sending Meade scopes direct from the GSO factory unless it goes through the Meade sales rep or some other Meade pathway. And by going through these people you would incur additional cost.

Its clear that GSO and Skywatcher scopes are at a good price here from most vendors. So why would these same vendors decide to hike the price of Meade for no reason? I'm happy to trust that there must be higher costs for meade gear. Maybe I'm naive...

[astroron (Ron)]

they could be made and badged at the same factory.
I worked for a firm that made the same product for two different companies, and just put the different labels on them.

[taxman (Matt)]

Wow, Peter - you have just summarised why I avoid nearly all Australian dealers.

It is exactly this type of condescending, whingey attitude that puts me off many local suppliers (and not just astro gear either). I never get this "woe is me, you'd better be grateful" attitude from US or Asian dealers

[stephenb (Stephen)]

I'm glad the topic of the GST / import tax has been mentioned. Any item imported into Australia worth over $1000 attracts by law, 10% import tax.

This can get missed in this arguement.

And this very arguement, which seems to have evolved from the initial post is repeated with monotonous regularity. For those who have raised this argument this time around, I'm not having a go at you, but it is a regular topic. And let's face it, this argument is often pointed at BinTel, although many may not want to use thier name in the context of the arguement.

My opinion is that Australian dealers (of any manufacturer) are not making a "killing".

Sure, I don't like some of the prices I have paid for gear in the past, but boy, have I been able to justify the initial cost, when weeks or months later, the product develops a fault, and the local shopfront dealer has gone over and above their already high level of customer service to fix or replace the product. I wouldn't have got that from with (a) buying over the internet from an Australian dealer with no shopfront, or (b) buying from overseas - both would had incured shipping costs to have the items returned.

One point I'd like to make is that, from my understanding, Meade and Celestron do not reimburse the local dealers for any labour costs they spend on warranty repairs. So if they have to factor this into the inital cost of the product, I personally have no problem with it. I have been in the service industry where this used to occur.

In the end the comsumer decides and I guess the market will filter out the dealers who "make a killing", but in the end the dealers I have used and trusted over my 25 years in the hobby, are still in business, if only just. I really cannot see why all the fuss. Shop around and get the best deal for yourself. If your happy, that's all that matters, isn't it?

[adman (Adam)]

There seems to be two polarised views here - those that think that retailers in Australia are unfairly hiking up prices and ripping off consumers, and those that think that the prices charged here are entirely reasonable.

As always in these situations, I imagine that the reality is somewhere in the middle.

Australia is a much smaller market than the US or the UK, so the retailers/distributors order smaller volumes from manufacturers. When you are buying anything, the more you buy the cheaper they are.

Having said that. Australian retailers also know that ordering stuff from overseas can be a right royal pain in the a#$%. Long delivery times, high shipping costs, uncertainty about warranties, GST on items over $1K.

The price you are paying here is a combination of small volumes, and the removal of all the hassles or perceived hassles of buying overseas.

I am never sure what all the fuss is about. If you are happy to put up with the hassles of buying overseas, then you are rewarded with better prices. If you can't wait, or don't want to deal with the international issues, then you have no chioce but to put up with the prices charged here.

Simple market forces. If you don't want to pay the prices, then don't. It's your money.