The quest for my first telescope (beginner needing advice)

[Mountain_Wanderer]

G'day gang, let me first say hi and it's great to begin life here on this forum .

Lately I've bought a few space books and have found myself getting more into astronomy. Facinating stuff indeed! On my mind lately has been the question of what sort of telescope I'd need to see all the wonders of the southern sky. I'm hoping to get some advice and ideas of what would suit me best if I were to go down the road of buying one . It's a big purchase and I'd like to get it right.

I live in the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney. There's lots of dark sky up here to see some cool stuff. I've been doing a little research and have visited a telescope store in Sydney to get an idea of how telescopes work and to get a feel of the sizes of them and ofcourse the price tag too! Gee there's so much to absorb and so many variations on what to buy!

I guess that what it comes down to is what I personally want to do with the telescope. So here's my requirements...

First thing is that I've got a budget to work under. Is $500 enough to get hold of something decent? I'm an absolute beginner, but I don't want to get something that I'l grow out of quickly. I want to keep it as I gain more knowledge and experience and use it too as an intermediate.

So what do I want to see? I want to see the polar caps on Mars, detail on the moon, distant planets like Saturn and Jupiter. Basically I want something that won't dissapoint me. I understand that you see more with a bigger telescope diameter. Perhaps an 8 inch diameter would be suitable? As I see it, a 4 1/2 inch just won't deliver the goods.

I've looked at refractors, Newtonians reflectors, Newtonian dobsonians, and those shorter cassegrains. Very interesting stuff. It seems Newtonians get the best value for money. The problem I see though is that an 8 inch newtonian telescope is bloody huge! What I want is a telescope that I can transport around easily to the neighbourhood oval. Newtonians just seem too bulky. How heavy are they? Do people lug these things around easily? Do they have carry cases (like a guitar case) that aid in transportation?

The other thing I noticed is that a dobsonian mounting is a lot cheaper than an equatorial mounting. Perhaps I could cut some costs and go for a dobsonian? However, how important is it to have an equatorial mounting? Is it really a necessity or is it easy to get around the issue? What would be some circumstances where an equatorial mounting would be really important to have?

The cassegrain telescopes seem to tick all the boxes - i.e. they are less bulky, yet have the same diameter as newtonians. However, the main drawback is ofcourse the price which is astronomical (pardon the pun).

So, I'm a little stuck and need a bit of advice if possible . I guess it has all come down to price verses ease of use. A super bulky telescope is not ideal, but may have to do considering the cost of getting something better. Not sure if a smaller diameter (and therefore smaller price) might achieve similar results? Also, do certain brands raise their prices compared to "lesser" brands? Also, perhaps someone could suggest some places to buy telescopes for cheaper prices?

Anyway, that's enough talking from me. Perhaps you guys have some cool advice?

Cheers and hope to hear from ya.

[Rockah (Zal)]

Hey mate

Good question - as a newbie myself, I can provide my opinion based on what I've found which may or may not be a good idea

Anyway, my first scope was/is a Maksutov Cassegrain telescope - a 5 inch skywatcher Black Diamond. These scopes are great (across various brands) as they can get large apatures in a small scope and are easy to move around. I then got a 8inch newtonian as it was on sale, and you're right - these are big scopes! But for the price they are great value for money. With size comes mobility issues, and with a smaller price tag you will have more maintenance (collimation). I decided to sell my cassegrain (for sale in this formum for under 500 bucks ) as I wanted to do imaging and I bought a refractor. It's an ED80, so a small apature compared to the Mak and the Newt, but it gives suprisingly good views. If you plan on imaging in the future, I'd suggest getting a good mount (equatorial) that can support a heavy load, such as the EQ6. If you're are going to use it just for visual observation, then an Alt/Az mount should be fine, and cheaper.

For 500 bucks though, to get a mount and scope of a big apature might be a little tough to find. You could get a nice scope second hand for that much but you'd be wanting to get a good mount to hold it up, GEM or Alt/Az either way.

In regards to seeing the planets - most scopes will give you good views. All of the above mentioned that I have listed can see saturn and jupiter and the craters of the moon easily, but the polar caps of mars depends on how far mars is away from us at a given time. Right now it just looks like a dot.

But maybe get the opinion of those more experienced first as, like I said, I am still new to all this. Hope that helps

[Blue Skies (Jacquie)]

Originally Posted by Jowel

Basically I want something that won't dissapoint me. I understand that you see more with a bigger telescope diameter. Perhaps an 8 inch diameter would be suitable? As I see it, a 4 1/2 inch just won't deliver the goods.

Ok, hold it right there! It sounds like you might be the kind of beginner who has massively high expectations of what telescopes can do, and you could very likely be disappointed with any scope you get. Start winding those expectations back right now! Better still, get yourself off to a local club meeting and have a look through somebody elses scope and get a feel for what they can do - and find out why an 8" is considered the basic model these days (see below for more comments.)

I've looked at refractors, Newtonians reflectors, Newtonian dobsonians, and those shorter cassegrains. Very interesting stuff. It seems Newtonians get the best value for money. The problem I see though is that an 8 inch newtonian telescope is bloody huge! What I want is a telescope that I can transport around easily to the neighbourhood oval. Newtonians just seem too bulky. How heavy are they? Do people lug these things around easily? Do they have carry cases (like a guitar case) that aid in transportation?

As mentioned above, an 8" dobsonian is not considered huge, but necessary. There is a very good reason its the most popular size at the moment, its the most versatile size in terms of performance and portability. A 6" is more portable, but you might struggle a bit to pull in the deep sky stuff like galaxies and wont always see as much detail on the planets (oh, and sorry to say but forget Mars for the next 18 months or so until the next opposition comes around). A 10" is lovely, but even bigger! Not everyone is up to that size in a solid tube, including me - I'd think twice about it, but I've been handling scopes long enough that collimating a truss-tube dob or one of the collapsible ones wouldn't phase me.

You could strap the dob onto a trolley, which I have seen done, if you want to wheel it down the road and around the local oval. You're only limited by your imagination there.

The other thing I noticed is that a dobsonian mounting is a lot cheaper than an equatorial mounting. Perhaps I could cut some costs and go for a dobsonian? However, how important is it to have an equatorial mounting? Is it really a necessity or is it easy to get around the issue? What would be some circumstances where an equatorial mounting would be really important to have?

Equatorial or EQ mounts aren't essential for general observing. However some people do prefer them - you might too, but you probably wont know until you try! People who are into photography need some kind of tracking, which an EQ mount provides easily.

I'll leave it there and let someone else throw in their 2c worth.

[M54 (Molly)]

Hi jowel,

to IIS.

It certainly can be confusing trying to work out what the best scope to buy is, when you don't have any experience of looking through them.

I strongly advise you to attend one of the local astro clubs. They have viewing nights and you can look through lots of different scopes and question the owners as to their pro's and cons.
Here is a link to a list of NSW astro clubs so you can pick the one closest to you...
http://www.quasarastronomy.com.au/society.htm

The type of scope depends on whether you want to do astrophotography or just visual observing.
For visual observing, as the others have said, an 8" dob. is considered the basic piece of equipment. I have a 5" dob (because it was a gift), and it does me ok at the moment, but will want better views a little down the track when I have learned the sky better.

For astro photography you'll have to hear from those experiended in it.

A lot of people here use a site called Andrews Communications and they seem to have very competitave pricing...
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm
There is also Bintel...
http://www.bintel.com.au/

But like I said, try the local astro society first, it will be full of friendly and helpful people.

[morls (Stephen)]

Just a brief comment,

I'm also very new to this...I recently bought a second hand 8" collapsible dob through the classifieds here, very reasonably priced, and I've also grabbed a new telrad, cheshire collimator and a couple of half-decent second hand eyepieces.

Not knowing how other telescopes perform, all I can say is I've been blown away by the views I get, and I know this is a scope that will keep me happy for a long time. It's reasonably portable - I can carry it myself, but it takes 2 trips, one with the OTA and one with the mount. Both are pretty easily manageable though....

This forum has been fantastic for getting me going, and I've met some very knowledgeable and generous people who have helped steer me in the right direction....keep asking questions and you should get something great...

[Paddy (Patrick)]

Hi Jowel and welcome.

Number 1,2 &3 is, as Jacqui says, get to a club night and have a look through scopes.

And I reckon an 8" dob is probably the ideal start. They are quite portable and you can easiy move them with a trolley if you like. EQ mounts are much more complex and expensive and for $500 you would end up with not much scope to go with it.

But look through one. Be aware that although you will be able to see heaps through an 8" telescope, things will not appear as they do in astro images.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks for the replies so far guys!

I guess that for the money I want to spend, an 8 inch dobsonian seems to do the job. Would it be fair to say that equatorial mounts would only be vital if I were very big into astrophotography? Is it also true that to do decent astrophotography I'd need a scope much larger than 8 inch anyway? So therefore if an 8 inch is all I can afford, then I shouldn't even bother with an equatorial mount, and therefore dobsonian is a clear winnner?

Just how heavy is an 8 inch dob? I'd love to hear more stories about people transporting them around the place. Do they get damaged easily too? If I were to get a collabsible dob for easier transporting, does a collapsible dob have less image quality than a standard dob?

Another question, when using the dobsonian I notice they are low to the ground. I'm a tall guy and so would have to crouch down to look. Is it uncomfortable to use these things or can the problem be avoided with using a stool to sit on or something?

In terms of diameter, I guess an 8 inch would be minimum to see some good stuff. Would a 10 inch do much better or only moderately improve? Is there a website somewhere that shows comparisons of the view through different telescope sizes?

[Liz]

Originally Posted by Jowel

Thanks for the replies so far guys!

I guess that for the money I want to spend, an 8 inch dobsonian seems to do the job. Would it be fair to say that equatorial mounts would only be vital if I were very big into astrophotography? Is it also true that to do decent astrophotography I'd need a scope much larger than 8 inch anyway? So therefore if an 8 inch is all I can afford, then I shouldn't even bother with an equatorial mount, and therefore dobsonian is a clear winnner?

Just how heavy is an 8 inch dob? I'd love to hear more stories about people transporting them around the place. Do they get damaged easily too? If I were to get a collabsible dob for easier transporting, does a collapsible dob have less image quality than a standard dob?

Another question, when using the dobsonian I notice they are low to the ground. I'm a tall guy and so would have to crouch down to look. Is it uncomfortable to use these things or can the problem be avoided with using a stool to sit on or something?

In terms of diameter, I guess an 8 inch would be minimum to see some good stuff. Would a 10 inch do much better or only moderately improve? Is there a website somewhere that shows comparisons of the view through different telescope sizes?

Hello Jowell and welcome.

I think the 8" Dob will be a very good starter for you, very portable, and pretty light. I had one for many years before upgrading to my 10" collapsible dob. They are 2 seperate pieces and easy to disassemble and pop into the car. They are low to the ground, and I used to pop my 8" mount onto a sturdy box, to make viewing more comfortable. Of late though, I have been using a stool - much better.
I havent had much experience with other scopes, but equatorial mounts are needed for longer exposures in astrophotography, so you can track. You dont necessarily need a big aperture - some of the pics put up in the imaging section are taken with aperture < 8".
If you can afford a 10", then do it as you will upgrade at some stage, otherwise, stick to a 6-8" Dob, then down the track you can sort out what you want for the future.

[Paddy (Patrick)]

Hi Jowel,

For any serious imaging you would need an equatorial mount. And I suspect a guide scope, guider etc. So it's a decent amount of investment. An 8" or 10" tube reflector on a dob mount can be put on an equatorial mount later - you would want at least and HEQ5 for an 8" or preferably eQ6 mount. So for imaging you wold be looking at $1200-$2000 for a mount.

Observing chairs, home made or bought ones make using the low eyepiece of an 8" dob quite comfortable. I would say unless you have a back problem, moving an 8-10" dob around should not be an issue. I am not an imager, but I think you'll find the imaging threads replete with this advice from experienced astrophotographers.

But again, there is much to be gained if you can have a look through one first.

[Blue Skies (Jacquie)]

Originally Posted by Jowel

Another question, when using the dobsonian I notice they are low to the ground. I'm a tall guy and so would have to crouch down to look. Is it uncomfortable to use these things or can the problem be avoided with using a stool to sit on or something?

Either use a stool or adjustable observing chair or raise the dob on a small platform. Your choice. I would prefer to sit as it makes one steadier and more relaxed - you're not waving around on your feet - and when relaxed you tend to see more.

[morls (Stephen)]

I got a plastic stool from kmart, $10, perfect height and very light to carry. Does the job well....

[Bern]

Hi all

Thank you. This has been an informative thread. I have the same questions as Jowel. Portability is an important issue for me because I would like to take the telescope on holidays (telescopes love a good holiday, I'm told), so it will need to fit in the car along with wife, 2 children, dog and luggage. I have looked at the Celestron 8" SE Schmidt-Casegrain, but this has received mixed reviews - good optics however seriously overpriced (unless you buy it from the US, maybe Amazon or an escrow service), poor build and quality control, particularly the mount, electronics and drive gears. On the otherhand, some people love it. Maybe that leaves me with an 8-10" collapsible dob. So can anyone recommend or comment on alternative-brand, large-aperture casegrain 'scopes? Also which brands have the best reputation for optical and build quality for dobs and casegrain - eg Skywatcher, Meade, Saxon, Guan Sheng.

Thanks for your thoughts
Bern

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

OK Jowel and Bern, here's all you need.

Skywatcher Collapsible dobsonian 8" = $449 from Andrews comms.

Best value for money at the moment, AND the top slides down for easier transport and storage in the car. Buy a chair and a planetarium wheel and you are set.

Everything is well within the $500 budget and VERY portable.

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks Screwdriverone.

Good advice. I have a few questions...

1.
I've been looking around at the different types of dobsonians available and it seems like a Sky-Watcher Dobsonian would be suitable in terms of budget and also diameter. Is this a decent brand? I've heard that the eyepieces can be a bit dodgy? I've also heard that the mirror fogs up when brought outside into the cold. How can these issues be solved?

2.
I can see the benefits in having a more compact dobsonian in the form of a collapsible telescope. However, is a collapsible dobsonian more difficult to use and prone to problems? I've heard that the mirrors can get out of alignment due to the moving parts. Would a standard non-collabsible dobsonian be better in this regard? How hard is it to correct this problem of mirrors out of alignment?

3.
In terms of diameter, I am leaning towards getting an 8 inch. Without yet having the chance to look though an 8 inch, can someone tell me their experiences in terms of what they can see? Can you see galaxies decently? Can you see moons around planets? When looking at Saturn for eg, how much detail can you make out - is it just a large dot or can you see cool stuff like the rings and patterns on the planet? For nebula can you see some decent detail or is it more just like a small cloud of colour and nothing more?

Cheers

[Suzy]

Hi Jowel & Bern,

Point 1
Dobsonians give the largest sized aperture for the lowest cost. For visual observing the largest sized aperture you can handle/transport & afford is recommended. Very quick to set up as well - plonk tube into the base and your set, thereby making them an ideal beginners scope in general.

Point 2
Realise this now... if this is your first telescope, it won't be your last. You will more than likely upgrade; most of us do (be it for either tracking, larger aperture, or astrophotography). Having point no.1 in mind, use your first scope to cut your teeth on and learn. As time progresses, trust me, you will get a better understanding of what it is you want. I myself went from a 6" dob (my first scope), to a 10" dob (2 wks ago) within 6 months. During this time, I learnt that my interest not only intensified, but I was also eager to pursue visual observing. A decent time frame also allowed me to be more educated on the accessories required for the scope. Learn how to handle your scope first, in it's most simple basic form, then add.

The 6" is easy to carry/transport. Though I ended up putting wheels on the base, so I could just drag it everywhere in one unit. The 10" is around 25kg (complete unit). Currently mine is getting wheels attached to the base with a handle that I can drag it by. Bigger and more wheels required on this one. Or you can do what most people do and use a trolley. Believe it or not, the weight is the same for collapsable and solid tube- it's all about portability really. Don't forget, as Liz mentioned recently in a similar post you will more than likely need to get a shroud for it which can be costly (or get someone to make one). Some people manage just fine without them, others complain they need it as stray light gets in. As for the managability of the 8" I can only assume this falls between the two scopes I have used, so I would gather it wouldn't be difficult.

There is a considerable difference in light gathering between a 6 & 10", that quite frankly I didn't expect. Everything is brighter, stars that were once feint are now luminous, coloured stars pop out everywhere. Globular Clusters are more resolvable. That being said, I really do believe my 6" still had plenty to do and see... it served me well, including viewing M104 (The Sombrero Galaxy- 30 million L/Y away- not bad, albeit feint). A lot a 6" is capable of, just a bit feinter. I could resolve globs as well- just took a bit more time to stare them out. My eyes got better at extracting detail. I got a whole magnitude difference (that's 2 and 1/2 times more light) than my 6", if that's any help gauging the difference for.

With what Chris just said, $449.00 for a collapsable dob is a truly fantastic price. But, work out if will require a shroud. You can buy the solid 8" tube dobs for only $489 at the moment from Ozscopes. Their service is fantastic, many (incl myself) have dealt with them and have been very happy with their efficiency and knowledge.
Have a look http://www.ozscopes.com.au/telescope...nian-telescope

The following two links are from the Articles & Projects section on the blue menu bar to the left of the screen. There is plenty of information in this menu section to learn from- make it your next best friend. The following is a beginner's guide to choosing your first telescope - part one: http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-260-0-0-1-0.html
Then, commence reading part two:
http://iceinspace.com.au/63-261-0-0-1-0.html

Here also, is a link that may be helpful- it is a telescope simulator which will enable you to get an idea of the views you will expect to get through different scopes and eyepieces. It's a lot of fun actually ...
http://www.telescope-simulator.com/i...d=45&Itemid=57

Lastly, I would like to leave you with some great advice from Ausastronomer (John Banbury- a very knowledgeable gentleman). I’m sure he won’t mind if I quote him here…..

"Some of these cheaper scopes have poor optics, poor finderscopes and even poorer mounts. You will find them to be nothing more than an exercise in frustration. You will not be able to find very much, when you do find something you won't see very much and what you see will not stay in the FOV very long and you will then spend the next 30 mins trying to re center the target. After 2 weeks of frustration the telescope will spend the next 2 years unloved in the corner of the closet, the loungeroom or the garage. Avoid any telescope sold by any store other than a store that specialises in astronomical telescopes. Avoid stores like Dick Smith Electronics, Australian Geographic and Camera stores. These stores carry a very small range of astronomical telescopes and what they do carry is nothing more than junk, in most cases. Experienced people call these XTT's. Short for XMAS TRASH TELESCOPE's. Further, the people who work in these stores might sound like they know what they are talking about when talking to someone who is a beginner, but truth is 99% of the people working in these stores don't know one end of a telescope from the other themselves. Some of these small cheaper scopes are very difficult for an experienced person to use, let alone a beginner.

If you can stretch the budget a little further I would recommend a 6"/F8 dobsonian which you can buy from Andrews Comms for about $350. A scope like this will show you 500X more than some of these other "toy" telescopes and most importantly will be infinitely easier for you to operate and find things in. You want to foster your interest in the hobby, not leave it out of frustration after a short time period."
Cheers,
John B.

Oh, I just read another post you added Jowel. Okay...
The dobs do require more frequent collimation. Especially each time you go up in size. In the 6 mths I had my 6" I never had to collimate it. I've read that with an 8" it is required more frequently, and required even more so frequently with a 10".

Regarding eye pieces, I did notice I got better & heavier ones with my 10" than I did with my 6". But they are still quite ordinary. But initially do the job just fine. Get used to your scope and get educated before you go down this path. Worry it about it later (this includes barlowing).

Scopes require a cool down time (from 30mts for a 6" to an hour with a 10"). This brings the scope to the same temp. as the outside air. All you have to do is take your scope outside and leave it for this time frame before viewing.

I've read plenty of times that collapsable dobs hold their collimation quite well compared to solid tubes. Don't be scared by collimating, once you learn it, you can have it done in a couple of minutes and it will become second nature. Don't let that stand in your way (I've never done it- I'm lazy and leave it up to hubby for now). Laser collimators make things easier.

Skywatcher, Saxon, etc are apparently all made from the same factory- just rebagged.

Okie dokies, I'm done, my hands are sore from all this typing

Enjoy boys- your in for the time of your lives once you get your scopes!

Regards,
Suzy.

[Suzy]

Originally Posted by Blue Skies

Either use a stool or adjustable observing chair or raise the dob on a small platform. Your choice. I would prefer to sit as it makes one steadier and more relaxed - you're not waving around on your feet - and when relaxed you tend to see more.

I use a stool with phone books which I add and take off depending on my viewing requirments. Surprisingly comfy too.

[M54 (Molly)]

Wow!
Well said Suzy!

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks Suzy. Bloody good post there.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

I had a look at that telescope size comparison website. Thanks Suzy, it's great. The planets would look mostly like very small objects. I guess I was expecting them to be a bit larger. Perhaps attaching a Barlow lens will make it a bit bigger.

As that website only shows examples of how planets would look, can someone please tell me what they can see when you point an 8" reflector at a galaxy or some other cool object out there? How big is what you see? Is it just a large dot too or can you make out patterns in the galaxy? Also, is it possible to see any detail on the planets and any planet moons?

[Paddy (Patrick)]

Planets will look small, but you will be able to see quite a bit of detail on Jupiter eg cloud bands, Great Red Spot, moons in transit as well as their shadows. On Saturn you will see rings and some divisions and a hint of cloud bands, Venus is always white, but you will see its phases. Uranus and Neptune will be blue or blue green discs. What you see on Mars will depend. YOu will usually only get to 300X magnification as the seeing gets worse above that & it all blurs. But you can see a lot at lower mags. Big globular clusters will be impressive, with lots of resolvable stars, open clusters will be beautiful patterns of stars of various hues, nebula will be grey areas of haze, but many will have interesting shapes and dark lanes. Galaxies will also be patches of haze and some will show some detail if you use averted vision.

Above all, you will see more as you learn to observe rather than just casually look. If you look through observation reports you will see that Rob K for example sees heaps more in his 4 1/2" scope than many do in larger ones. What PGC hunter sees through his 12" in light polluted skies is phenomenal compared to what I see through my 16" in dark skies, although I am learning. So if you have modest expectations and patience, you will see a great deal. And if you use averted vision.