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Old 01-10-2016, 09:09 AM
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wasyoungonce (Brendan)
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One bit of news I should say. I was talking to a gent on CN thru PM and he didn't have experience nor links to files....(like many others) but wanted to see if he can get a camera like cam86.

He had gone to PCBWay and they said they can produce the PCBs and populate them cheaply..here is an extract (no names given):

"I wanna built my own ccd camera, and already looking for a defect or second hand nikon. But I could't find the schematics or files related with the cam86 project hence I'm contacting you. I can also join google/yahoo groups if there are any. I'm not so handy with smd soldering but I think I can get it done in a company like PCBway. On their web site it says 10 boards costs 10USD and PCB assembly is 20USD so I think I can get it done under 100USD including shipping."

Which I found very interesting. He wasn't looking for a freebie build but at getting the PCBs made and populated. Indeed this looks cheap. Yeah I know...pay cheap end up with cheap! Maybe we should investigate this. Also saw this similar discussion in a French forum but I think the costs they were looking at was quite a lot more. Obviously they cannot populate the PCBs with sensors.

Anyway...worth a mention.

Brendan
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  #242  
Old 01-10-2016, 10:31 AM
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Tom and Giles, welcome!!!

I have used PCBway few times in the past. We actually got a PCBs made there only about a month ago. The boards were always of decent quality. In one instance the silk screen was out a fraction of a mm and a bit blurry but that does not matter really.

I would estimate the cost of our PCB to about AU$25 for 10 + about AU$35 for shipping to AU + few $ for PayPal/CC fees. The price per PCB would be cheaper for larger orders. Easy to get quotes on the PCBway website. The biggest cost usually is the shipping.

I was never involved getting populated PCBs with PCBway. We recently ordered 10 prefabbed PCBs from another Chinese manufacturer for about $1200 (not including parts). Mainly through-hole components and not too many. The base US$20 will probably cover 50 solder joints and they charge per solder joint. AtMega already has 30 solder joints. >$100US probably may be reasonable cost to expect.

The quality of the hand solder joints we had on our prefabbed boards was quite good.

It may be worth getting proper quotes. Another option would be to selectively only get the difficult parts soldered. Note that it will all be hand-soldered unless we order over 100 boards. Testing etc all costs extra.

Brendan, do you trust someone else to do the soldering for you

Last edited by luka; 01-10-2016 at 10:43 AM.
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  #243  
Old 01-10-2016, 10:40 AM
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wasyoungonce (Brendan)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
....Brendan, do you trust someone else to do the soldering for you
Got me by the short an curly's....Nooooossss...

Actually....yeah someone trained in HRHS and or MicroMin PCB repair. The guys doing this in our workshops were way better than me. Unfortunately we tended to leave them in these work areas as their experience was too valuable to keep changing workers.

Even though we were all trained to the same standards...some are better than others! Sadly I was not at the top end of the soldering gene pool ...but...still passable!
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  #244  
Old 01-10-2016, 10:47 AM
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As I said, the soldering on the boards we got made up looked really good. Better than mine :-)

I suppose those guys sit and solder the whole day and have more soldering experience than we ever will.

Another option is to get some boards prefabbed with the difficult parts and to also order some blank boards. That gives us an option to do them manually at almost no extra cost.
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  #245  
Old 01-10-2016, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gehelem View Post
yes, here i am
i'm Gilles, living in France. i completed Cam84, it took me 9 month
no picture under real sky, because my own challenge is to make it work with indlib under linux... No sucess for now .. No pictures

I'd like to try this Cam86, i thougt it could work easier with linux because of the Atmega, replacing FT2232 bitbang communication with a good old serial. But i might be wrong...
Doesn't matter, it'll be funny
Hi Giles,

If you are planing open-sourcing the indi code I may be able to help with this, once my Cam86 is working and if I can find time (no promises). I don't have experience with indi but, among other things, I am a software developer with lots of experience with embedded devices.
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  #246  
Old 01-10-2016, 12:38 PM
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wasyoungonce (Brendan)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
As I said, the soldering on the boards we got made up looked really good. Better than mine :-)

I suppose those guys sit and solder the whole day and have more soldering experience than we ever will.

Another option is to get some boards prefabbed with the difficult parts and to also order some blank boards. That gives us an option to do them manually at almost no extra cost.
That Idea has a lot of Merritt. I'd like to claim it as my own...but sadly it wasn't.

I saw Grim was putting on the FT2232 and ATMEGA328 (and the appropriate power supply lines, hooking these up to a 9V battery then installing ATMEGA firmware. Damn fine idea.

There could be a number of ways we can get boards part done...but I'd like to at least try some. I've been reading the Ukrainian thread and noted they had some issues with soldering, bridging pads and degraded ICs. I'm ramping up my equipment now to be able to R&R these SMD ICs easily.

If I have to replace a bad IC I'll use my hot Air Yihua 828D. I'm getting some ChipQuik (and some more nozzles) so I can apply the chipquik across the pins/pads of a bad IC (with an iron). Isolate it off on the PCB with Kapton tape then use hot air to low temperature melt these bridged joints all at once. The ChipQuik will lower the melt point significantly thus lessen PCB/Pad over heat. Of course I don't care about he removed IC.

I put them in a Voodoo container I have. Kinda like keeping the bones of something I've killed. I gaze at this container of dead parts with satisfied joy on occasions. This would be a good study case for some Psychiatrist.

This looks to be the easiest, safest method of IC removal! We certainly have attracted some outside interest and it's gaining.

Brendan
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  #247  
Old 01-10-2016, 05:00 PM
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I also like the idea of assembling the board in sections. This is a complicated build and needs assembly in stages and testing of each stage... not something I would normally do but in this case I would.

Imagine having the whole thing done (in China or here), powering it and it goes off in smoke because voltage regulator was faulty and was outputting 15V instead of 5V killing most of other components...

Also there are two aspects of the build for me:
1. Getting a working camera
2. A challenge of building it
Having it pre-built in China removes half the fun
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  #248  
Old 01-10-2016, 05:48 PM
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Yes..its the trill of the hunt in completing something! The journey is half the fun!

I've just ordered a medium size pack of Chip Quik from Oritech. Gawd the cost of this stuff is high and varies greatly across Australia. Even shipping was high...$16.5 from Melbourne to Melbourne!

Sigh...I much prefer RS with free shipping...but they don't have this stuff. Anyway...this will make it easy to remove degraded ICs etc without damaging the PCBs. Adds Bismuth or such like to the solder alloy that is then used to bridge all the IC pins. Since its low melt point, 58C and remains in plastic stage for a long time. Its easy to heat all pins/pads to remove ICs.

I can use my hot air station and Kapton tape to heat and protect the rest of the PCB...easy peazy IC removal! Then clean up pads as normal!

I looked at many other options like the Hakko 950 SMD tweezers (or Ayuoe T001 knock off's) but the Hakko tips were exhorbitant and the Ayuoe tips range was small. Also the damn thing was ~25Watts per side. Not enough heat for larger SMD ICs!

The other way was using a Hakko modified barrel for my 907 irons and SMD tips to for to these. But each SMD tip is ~$40 AUS ea. I'd need 5 or 6 tips...and more!

In the end..chip quik won out! Much cheaper and less heat thus less propensity to damage the valuable PCBs. I'll need some extra hot air nozzles but fleabay has plenty cheaply!

Lest hope that..." I chose wisely"!
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  #249  
Old 01-10-2016, 06:34 PM
pat30 (Patrice)
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Hi,

I'm Patrice and I look like you Cam86, I have opened the post on the French forum, since the beginning of your subject I read you without speaking.

By the way, hello Gilles .

My PCB are achieving by PCBWAY they were costing 20 for 5 pieces with delivery, I'm surprised for the price you speak above.

For soldering not to worry it is not hard, I started by voltage regulators to take action and be sure to have not a short circuit, after the rest, I has a small soldering station cheap.
I find it unfortunate not to weld ourselves it removes the fun of building and it's easy.

Sorry for my english
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  #250  
Old 01-10-2016, 07:29 PM
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wasyoungonce (Brendan)
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Hi Patrice

I have seen you post on the Ukrainian forum thread quite a few times as pat30. Good to see you here and welcome to Ice In Space. This thread and camera is generating a lot of interest and its good to see people all over the world with the same excitement and interests.

Your English is better than my French! Even my English is bad!

So welcome and if you have questions ask and we will help.

Brendan
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  #251  
Old 01-10-2016, 09:24 PM
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Hi Patrice

Thank you for clearing up several things on the Ukrainian forum as they answered some questions that I had as well.


1. I got proper quotes for the PCB manufacture from PCBway. For our board with size 56x88mm we get:
5x = $10
10x = $10
15x = $25
20x = $28
25x = $31
30x = $33
(all prices in US$)

Shipping with DHL is $25, HK post = $11. DHL will deliver within 2-3 days, HK post within 4-6 weeks. PCB manufacturing usually takes 2-3 days only.


2. Brendan, ChipQuik is the weapon of my choice. It works well even with just a soldering iron and no heat gun. Once I won a bet by desoldering 100-QFP chip with just ChipQuik and a soldering iron

3. Brendan, what do you think about modifying the PCB to have a separate power supply for the Peltier? That way we could use 12V or even 16V for the Peltier and 7-ish V for the rest of the circuit (I forgot what the real minimum is, will have to confirm on the Ukrainian forums). It would greatly reduce the heat generation on the PCB but we would need an extra pin. We would also need to use a common ground for both, somehow...
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  #252  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:28 AM
pat30 (Patrice)
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Hello,
I asked the price for the minimum 5 pieces thus 10 for PCB and 9 for shipping by HK post, delivered in 16 days after the order.

The Cam86 can be powered with 7.5V minimum; for Peltier I took it as voltage regulator:
Ultra-small-size-DC-DC-step-down-power-supply-module-3A-adjustable

Cam will be powered by 9V and 5V Peltier; there is makes -30 C under ambient temperature, that is enough well for me.
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  #253  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:46 AM
gehelem (Gilles)
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Hue guys, you're so fast !!
Just to inform : little progress on cam84/linux driver, buffer reading seems to work now
Still no image, on step at a time...
(But i don't want to bother you all with these old cam84 stuff, i can share on CN instead...)
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  #254  
Old 02-10-2016, 04:13 AM
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wasyoungonce (Brendan)
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Patrice and Luka.

Yes reading the specs on the regulators. The lower 3.3V and 5V LDOs (from ST) appear have 2.0V drop out LDO while others have a 1.7V LDO. Yet this depends on mfgr spec sheets (could also change with mfgrs)...ST 2016 sheets say this but their 2009 sheets say 1.7 LDO across the board!

I'm guessing we can run at 8V minimum ok..allowing for small irregularities and mfgr part spec differences. Patrice mentioned 9V...yes that fine!

The idea of running the TEC from 12V separate source. Yes gents this has merit. What are we looking at, placing this TEC DC/DC LDO outside the case and running its output inside? Are we not using the ATMEGA328 FET TEC controller?

Luka and Patrice...is that just plain PCB price..non populated?

Patrice have you run Peltier tests? What sized TEC did you use? Sorry for hitting you up its just I was just about to run some to see what sort of delta I could get. Looking at a 30mm sq TEC.

Gilles...we would love to hear about the cam84 you have put a lot of work in it..show it off

edit:
Just a question...what are the Ukrainians using to take darks to evaluate/test their cameras...MaximDL?

Last edited by wasyoungonce; 02-10-2016 at 05:06 AM.
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  #255  
Old 02-10-2016, 05:45 AM
pat30 (Patrice)
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Sorry, I do not understand non populated ??? free components?
this is what I got for that price:

http://www.webastro.net/upload/image...1474041415.jpg

Yes, a lot of testing with Peltier 15x30 (tes1-6303) and 40x40 (tec12706), much heat sink aluminum, fan and different voltage.
Without too much detail, the best results (-32C without sensor) were with tes1-6303 voltage 5V 2A and fan 30x30 or 40x40 voltage 9V not 12V .

No, this is not MaximDL is a special program: Cam View utility
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  #256  
Old 02-10-2016, 08:19 AM
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wasyoungonce (Brendan)
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Thanks Patrice...not populated means...no components on the PCB or "Bare".

Cam-view utility...I've looked at that software pack and didn't think to ask. Thanks.

I'm about to play with a 30mm SQ TEC TES1-12703 and another TEC1-12703 (40mm SQ). I think the 40mm one is too big but would like to hear about how you TECs went.

We need to agree on cooling (for our IIS cam86) before ordering PCBs. Your experience could save us lots of work! This is the last thing for us to do before ordering the PCBs.

Again many thanks

Brendan
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Old 02-10-2016, 10:56 AM
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Sorry, must keep it short.
Regarding the separate Peltier power VT1 controls the GND to the Peltier there are few options. There is no space on the PCB to insert an DC-DC converter so we could:
1. Have the converter "dangling" in the case, hot-glued to the side (more heat inside the case but simpler if we have space).
2. Have the converter outside the case. Outside the case could mean attached to the camera (I could 3D print a small housing) or even completely detached, on the ground (floor), with a custom-made 3-pin power cable going to the camera.
3. Use two separate power supplies with shared ground, one for Peltier and one for the rest of the camera.

Last edited by luka; 02-10-2016 at 11:18 AM.
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  #258  
Old 02-10-2016, 05:19 PM
pat30 (Patrice)
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I put pictures to understand:

The heat sink is insert to the box
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Peltier
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fingers with fixation for DS18b20
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bedroom for CCD with Silicagel
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for DC-DC converter, I choose the option 2 it's very small converter
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Old 02-10-2016, 05:33 PM
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Hi Luka...exactrly what I was thinking...although haven't decided with way to go yet.

Uploaded new Cam86 schematic, drawings etc. Changed C45 to 10uF, 1206, X5R series. as done by Grim. Just increasing bypass capacity. He said any cap more than or equal to 10uF.

Oh I tried to update the BOM but think I made a hash of it putting in RS numbers cost etc. Might be best that one person only does these BOM changes. I'd rather it be you as I am totally lost using that "live BOM". I can send you details of schematic/PCB board changes made then you can make the BOM changes?

Is this ok? You may have reason for not wanting to do this but you have put a lot of effort into this BOM and I'd hate to ..."udo it with one foul stroke"!

Finally finished the Royel station. Had a few old caps to change, calibrate the irons and reverse engineer the PCBs, sub PCBs etc and identify all parts. So if I damage something I know what I need to fix it. Now for some nice juicy resistance tweezers. Oh The Hakko 936's are not redundant...yet!

Just waiting for the Chip Quik and I'm ready.


Brendan
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:15 PM
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I forgot to say, during my tests, I also tried 2 stage Peltier with 15x30 and 40x40, the problem is that the hot side is too hot and they need a large heat sink.

The main thing is not to have the too hot side, therefore find a compromise with the voltage.

The GND DC-DC converter is common with GND voltage, that way the Peltier is always controlled by VT1, just the positive leaving from the converter, I think this is the best solution.

Last edited by pat30; 02-10-2016 at 07:36 PM.
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