Following on from discussions in other threads about the difficulties of observing Sarurn's Encke Gap, I am proposing that we conduct an Encke Gap Challenge in the period leading up to our closest approach on 20 July this year. The rules can be pretty simple, observed with what you have, but your observation should be recorded here in this thread.
Guidelines/Rules:
1 You need to have seen the Encke Gap; not the Cassini Division, etc, so you need to understand what the Encke Gap actually is. In these days of isolation it is near impossible to confirm with another observer, so the honour system is expected.
2. Record the details of equipment used, including scope, eye piece, etc, as well as time and date, Alt/AZ or RA/Dec. Notes on Seeing are expected. Note location of the Observation.
3. There are no limitations on equipment used.
4. Photographs are welcome, but obviously they are a separate category. We can all participate together.
So what do you think? Is this something we can get behind in these isolation times? Get you motivated to get out there and aim your gear at Saturn? Feedback to this thread.
This proposed event has no affiliation with IIS, astronomical societies, Star Party organisations, etc.
1. If you believe you actually saw the gap, and ' averted imagination' does not count as actual observation. In these days of isolation it is near impossible to confirm with another observer, so the honour system is expected.
What do you mean by this? Are you saying that it is actually quite difficult to see and that many observers think they see it but are not actually seeing it? I've seen it quite a number of times in my 10" scopes so this bit has me confused. Did I imagine it?
Which other thread are you referring? I'd like to take a read!
What do you mean by this? Are you saying that it is actually quite difficult to see and that many observers think they see it but are not actually seeing it? I've seen it quite a number of times in my 10" scopes so this bit has me confused. Did I imagine it?
Which other thread are you referring? I'd like to take a read!
As far as what you saw is concerned, I cannot say, do you understand what the Encke Gap actually is? I am not talking about the Cassini Division. It is important tbat you understand what it is.
A good idea Glen. One of the criteria to validate an observation will be some confirmation of the seeing conditions. I observe quite regularly with different scopes, but perhaps only once or twice per year (sometimes zero times) do I experience such conditions that allow extraordinary observations. It was in these conditions in July last year after I had split some very challenging double stars that I set the scope on Saturn and detected the Encke gap. And this was a first for me in over 50 years in astronomy. So if an observation is claimed, and others in the same area report ordinary or poor conditions on that night, then it will be suspect in my view.
A good idea Glen. One of the criteria to validate an observation will be some confirmation of the seeing conditions. I observe quite regularly with different scopes, but perhaps only once or twice per year (sometimes zero times) do I experience such conditions that allow extraordinary observations. It was in these conditions in July last year after I had split some very challenging double stars that I set the scope on Saturn and detected the Encke gap. And this was a first for me in over 50 years in astronomy. So if an observation is claimed, and others in the same area report ordinary or poor conditions on that night, then it will be suspect in my view.
Good point John. Validation is a problem area and you may have noticed I have changed the proposed rules. So any suggestions that can support claimed observations are important. Linking in Alex's thread is an attempt to get everyone interested on the same page, in terms of the complexities of the challenge.
I have modified the originally posted rules, to make It a more inclusive challenge.
Importantly for anyone considering getting involved, is to actually understand the Saturn Ring system geography, and where the Encke Gap is located (Ring A), so if your unsure please do some research. I will try to put up some links to help out.
Suggestions are very welcome.
It is a very unique opportunity for both visual and photo to join in a common goal/task/challenge.
Obviously photo and visual have their own skill sets, but what unites both here is just how blooming difficult it is to pick out the Encke visually & photo.
Thank you also that my thread inspired you to create this challenge for this year. Both threads are different - mine is a starting point from which to be able to gauge the quality of your scopes, and even photo gear and processing techniques in light of understanding what "resolution" means & how if differs from what we can see which is finer. And gives a more intimate understanding of Saturn's ring system. It's a more how-to and why.
This thread challenge is for those who are happy to publish their results and experiences.
As Glen mentioned, it is important to know what the Encke Division is, and not to confuse it with the much larger Cassini Division. Again, here's a link to my thread that will explain what the Encke Division is and why it is such a difficult target:
As far as what you saw is concerned, I cannot say, do you understand what the Encke Gap actually is? I am not talking about the Cassini Division. It is important tbat you understand what it is.
Cheers. I will have a read after work tonight.
Yes I understand the difference and I was not referring to the Cassini Division. You have made me question whether I have in fact seen it now, though.
My post on this was Post #18 which mentioned as below:
Encke’s division
I find that when the conditions are VERY, VERY good Encke’s division can seen quite well in my 12inch LX200 if you are an experienced observer, but occasionally even 1st timers can see it.
Last Month i had a few people around for an astro night a few young children and adults all were 1st time viewer's through a telescope.
Viewing was of Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, Mars, Omega Centauri, Jewel Box, 47 Tucana, Swan Nebula, Triffid Nebula, Lagoon Nebula, Centaurus A Galaxy .........and many more open clusters and stars
With Saturn near the zenith and VERY STILL CLEAR conditions Cassini’s division was large and obvious i could also see Encke’s division in the rings at both 234x and 358x magnification using a 2x Powermate and 26mm Nagler and 17mm Ethos eyepiece.
I asked the first adult to look through the scope to describe in detail what he was seeing, he said.........
WOW its Saturn, i can see its rings and a big gap running around the middle of the rings, the rings have different bands of shading and the planet has bands of white, very faded brownish yellow and grey, there is a round grey area at the pole and i can see the rings going behind the top of the pole and a shadow on the rings from the planet.
I said Very good and explained about what he was seeing, then i said can you see anything between the big black gap in the rings and the outer edge of the rings like a "colour or shading or something" ( not mentioning anything about Encke’s division as i was throwing a curve ball to see if he could accually see it)
A few minutes of viewing he said OH... there is another very thin gap in the rings its very hard to see but its there
So on that night with 4 children and 3 adult first time viewers.... Encke’s division TICK for 2 children and 2 adults
Bumping this up. You will find a debate going on over in Alex's thread on the Encke Gap, concerning the merits of claims related to equipment, resolution, etc. It is definitely worth reading if your contemplating the Encke Challenge 2020.
A reminder that opposition is 21 July 2020.
For those that do not own equipment that can resolve the Encke Gap, it could still be possible if you can "find a friend" who has the necessary aperture, and willing to share some eyepiece time. This extends to hiring the necessary astro grunt as well.
We might even be able to organise a Virtual Saturn Party, on a night of exceptional Seeing; watch this thread for details.
I spent yet another 75minutes on Saturn with the 18" scope, this time equipped with Delos 6mm for 310x, Delos 4.5mm for 413x and Tak LE5mmED for 372x which was as high as the seeing would allow......
Mr Keeler's "Encke" would not reveal itself.............
Thankfully the planet provides so much more detail and the dance of its moons provide yet another challenge for the keen observer.....
But the 3am starts in -3C are a bit much for my aging joints
I spent yet another 75minutes on Saturn with the 18" scope, this time equipped with Delos 6mm for 310x, Delos 4.5mm for 413x and Tak LE5mmED for 372x which was as high as the seeing would allow......
Mr Keeler's "Encke" would not reveal itself.............
Thankfully the planet provides so much more detail and the dance of its moons provide yet another challenge for the keen observer.....
But the 3am starts in -3C are a bit much for my aging joints
Be consoled by the fact you and I boith saw it out in The Paddock...you with the TEC Mak and me with the AP Star 12. It is quite the sight.
Cold...yeah, takes all enthusiasm. Woke up this morning... -2.7° (felt temp -5.1°)...and it is not even winter yet.
