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Old 23-11-2009, 04:02 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Originally Posted by Allan_L View Post
Chris, We all get what you are saying!

However, dare I say you miss a point?

The one benefit I see for the shop owner, and the rip off of the worker as compared to the Aussie is this:

What if no customers come in that day?
That's easy Allan - on the days that they are busy, they usually (and typically) earn more in "extra" tips" to compensate. This is the way it works. I saw this first-hand when my ex-wife was working in the restaurants over there when I was on assignment. Some days she'd earn the basic minimum, and on other days we were rolling in it. If a festival was on or it was around the holiday times, hospitality workers were all earning small fortunes for themselves - something that would otherwise just go to the owner here. So - again, each system has it's advantages under specific circumstances. It's very difficult to say which is better other than the way either of the two may have treated you personally.

Don't get me wrong - I think that it's be easier home accounting to be paid the way we are here.

Last edited by Omaroo; 23-11-2009 at 04:13 PM.
  #82  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:14 PM
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We had a problem as our work charge cards did not allow for tips. So we would pay the bill with the charge card and then collect the tip for waiter/waitress in cash.

One very good waitress was very p'd off untill we explained to her what the deal was. This was on the north side in Chicago.

When in Rome do as the Romans do!

Bert
  #83  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:26 PM
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Oh dear Carl....

It's not a battle between right and wrong. You are still not seeing the point, and I'm not sure you're trying to.

The wage structure is based on an agreed structure between "bosses" and "workers" like an award in essence - but is unfortunately still called a "tip". It is not a case of the customer "helping to pay" the worker. Get that out of your head! There is no subterfuge here on behalf of the owners.

When you go into business in the States - like running a restaurant for instance - you know and understand that workers, in general, are partly paid in the form of a tip - leaving you (the owner) to call the rest of their pay a "salary" or "wage". They (the workers) are never getting any less than if they were paid in a single-tier manner like we are here. It's just the way it is done - and it is not "less right" that our system is here. The worker is NOT at a disadvantage because of it, which is what you are still, undyingly, trying to maintain. Employers are not scumbags - they all (repeat: ALL) satisfy the workers pay in the same manner - not just some of them. It's a system - not a cover-up. Paying the tip is MANDATORY on behalf of the customer - not optional. Therefore - how could the owner splitting this component off from the bill be seen as anything other than kosher?

If you look for employment in this sector in the States - you also understand that part of your wages are coming in the form of "tips" - but not to worry as they are guaranteed and non-negotiable. You expect the $20 per hour you agreed to work for to be split between what we call "wage" and "tips". You still get your $20 per hour!! You are not relying on anyone's compassion or good will to earn your full $20 - especially the owners.

It isn't the old days - where the tipping system was originally introduced to offset poor pay and working conditions. This ISN'T the case any more - it's only carried on in name and form. The wages a worker gets are all guaranteed!!! If you are one of the "scumbag" employers you keep referring to - you'd better watch out of you fiddle the books and rip off your employees - the Internal Revenue Service will drag you through hell for it. I think that I've mentioned this already.

Because we aren't used to this system here in Australia - I think that most of you are confused, still, by the term "tip". It isn't, in the USA, just what you leave on the table if you think your service was provided excellently, it is a standard part of the bill. They should probably change that pay component's name to "Service Charge" - which would alleviate the confusion. This whole Service Charge goes directly to the worker.
I know what you're trying to say and I can see the way the system works...the worker get's $20/hr, guaranteed, but his/her pay is a combo of what the employer pays + the "tip". Like you said, the "tip" is in fact a service charge and should be named as such. It's much like a GST, only not really a tax.

However...

Quote:
...workers, in general, are partly paid in the form of a tip - leaving you (the owner) to call the rest of their pay a "salary" or "wage".
What that says is this....you may get $20/hr, but the employer only pays for the wage directly of that amount minus the value of the tip. So, in effect, the customer is subsiding the workers wages. If $20/hr is the minimum going rate, for instance, and say the workers average $20 in tips per working shift, that means in a 10 hour day the employer only has to pay $18/hr, which is below the minimum wage rate, in order to satisfy the workers pay. The employer effectively pays the wage earners their wages but circumvents the minimum wage requirements. That's what I call cheating. If they did that here in any industry other than hospitality (they get away with blue murder with working hours etc out here), they'd be lynched. Their business would head south faster than an F18 in afterburner!!!!. The unions would have a field day!!!. Those tips would be seen as being bonuses, not base pay. Even the hospitality workers out here wouldn't put up with that. Those out here wanting tips want the tips to be paid over and above their normal set wages, not as a part thereof. Try paying them below the award and then bring their pay up to the award level with tip and see what happens. If they don't get enough tips to cover the wages, what happens then. It means the employer, by law, must make up the shortfall in accordance with the wages agreement they must sign as part of their contract with their employees. If they don't, and I hope they do the same in the US, the ATO/IRS would/ought to rake them over boiling lava and then throw the book at them.

That is one of the reasons why tipping here was frowned upon then abolished completely. Apart from being an objectionable way of making pay for employees, it's open to all sorts of abuses...on both sides.
  #84  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:30 PM
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When in Rome do as the Romans do!
Eat mice and sheep's eyeballs, go to gladiatorial contests, feed dissenters to the wild animals, conquer helpless natives and rob other nations blind....sounds like a great idea!!!
  #85  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:32 PM
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Well that was an entertaining half an hour read
Well done Chris for persevering through that all and keeping sane mate!

Here's a concept....wouldn't it be a funny situation if
the people here in IIS were rewarded by making nice posts.
With being nice to people in general
And everyone got a minimum 'wage' of allowed posts per week
That way, to supplement their number of allowed posts per week,
they could make even more nice posts.

It would quieten down the noise a bit though!

Steve
  #86  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by asimov View Post
Well I'm glad all the anti American posts have gone - Having lived in the US for a year (AND loved it, AND the people) I am not tolerant of 'American bashing'
As to the story itself - Yeah it surprises me not.
Sorry. I find this equally offensive.

Critics may be one thing, but apologists are just as wrong.

Freedom of speech, although not legislated, is supposed to be one of the tenets of the American democracy.
  #87  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:35 PM
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Remember all roads lead to Rome!

Bert
  #88  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:35 PM
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My apologies here.

I seems I am not allowed to respond to this thread. Sorry.
  #89  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:35 PM
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Cheers Steve - LOL!!

Here is my last post on this thread, as fun as it was. It shows that there IS a minimum wage requirement in nearly all states of the Union. Some of the southern states are a bit behind the times, but their cost of living is equally undemanding.

This will give you the gist. Low numbers - but fixed, standardised minimum wages exist - under-which an employer cannot go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
  #90  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:37 PM
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when I was on assignment
Where's the trench coat and dark glasses

Oh, and the micro miniature super telephoto camera, with macro lens and microchip digital satellite uplink
  #91  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:39 PM
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If you don't come out Brutus we will throw in a spear with an union on it!

Bert
  #92  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:42 PM
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Where's the trench coat and dark glasses

Oh, and the micro miniature super telephoto camera, with macro lens and microchip digital satellite uplink
Queue the Get Smart theme.....
  #93  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:44 PM
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I feel bad for foreigners traveling to the USA nowadays. The incredibly insane "security" process makes life bad enough for Americans, but when I see what non-Americans have to go through at our airports I wonder why they even visit the States.

The good news is that many American tourism businesses are waking up to the fact that it's been a total disaster for them. American authorities used the bogus terrorist threat as a way to tighten their grasp on Citizens. The USA is a great place but it has some kinks still to be ironed out, some of them pretty bad ones.

As sad as I am to leave my old home behind me, Aussies and Kiwis are now my countrymen and I consider myself honored and privileged.
  #94  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:50 PM
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What about fast food restaurants in the US. What do the staff in those get paid?
  #95  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
Cheers Steve - LOL!!

Here is my last post on this thread, as fun as it was. It shows that there IS a minimum wage requirement in nearly all states of the Union. Some of the southern states are a bit behind the times, but their cost of living is equally undemanding.

This will give you the gist. Low numbers - but fixed, standardised minimum wages exist - under-which an employer cannot go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
Unless I go for a professional position, remind me never to look for work over there. Those minimum wages are pathetic...no wonder so many people try and get 2 or more jobs. Federal award...$58 for an 8 hour day. I know kids at fast food joints that get better pay than that!!!. Work in a restaurant out here and it's an even worse comparison.
  #96  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:51 PM
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All jokes aside this is a situation for ordinary workers all of you would have to face under JWH's workchoices.

Welcome to the USA, The land of the free to live in abject poverty even if you work at two jobs.

Bert
  #97  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:52 PM
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Queue the Get Smart theme.....
Watch your nose on that last door...it's a killer!!!
  #98  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:53 PM
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If you don't come out Brutus we will throw in a spear with an union on it!

Bert
Send the "unions", I love "unions!!!" (unions = onions)
  #99  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by telecasterguru View Post
What about fast food restaurants in the US. What do the staff in those get paid?
Take Rhode Island, for example. Minimum wage there is $7.40/hr but if you work somewhere that tips (like a fast food joint) you get....drum roll....$2.89/hr
  #100  
Old 23-11-2009, 04:59 PM
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Brutal unthinking corporations do not like unions entering their fiefdoms!

Bert
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