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Old 13-09-2019, 07:41 PM
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lazjen (Chris)
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Scopes - why not more "integration"?

Given the wide variety of gear that's out there for the astro community, I'm wondering why I haven't seen scopes that are more integrated.

By integration, I mean the things we tend to add on to the scope - dew heaters, electronic focuser, controllable flats device, controllable cover, etc.

Imagine being able to buy a nice refractor with these items that takes power + USB connection. Then with mounts with nice cabling choices, plug in the refractor to it, and off you go. Reduce those cables everywhere.

Ok, it would take some interesting design and engineering work to pull off, but wouldn't it be amazing?
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Old 13-09-2019, 07:55 PM
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billdan (Bill)
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Most scopes are sold for visual use and don't need all those accessories.

But I agree a scope that is designed for imaging only in mind would benefit from having those options pre-installed.

The AG Optical scopes have an integrated Gemini focuser/rotator and a thermal management system for the primary and secondary mirrors. They cost big bucks though.

http://agoptical.com/convergent-seri...ng-telescopes/
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazjen View Post
Given the wide variety of gear that's out there for the astro community, I'm wondering why I haven't seen scopes that are more integrated.

By integration, I mean the things we tend to add on to the scope - dew heaters, electronic focuser, controllable flats device, controllable cover, etc.

Imagine being able to buy a nice refractor with these items that takes power + USB connection. Then with mounts with nice cabling choices, plug in the refractor to it, and off you go. Reduce those cables everywhere.

Ok, it would take some interesting design and engineering work to pull off, but wouldn't it be amazing?
Simple when you think about it because I. I and most don't want to be TOLD what to buy

Why should I be forced to but the heater, red dot finder, eyepieces, etc that a manufacturer says I have to have or no scope

.

Last edited by Ukastronomer; 13-09-2019 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:37 PM
glend (Glen)
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That is a good point, integration will cost more and who decides what is worth integrating? One man's dream integrated solution is another's stupid excess. Let people build their own solutions that meet their needs.
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:41 PM
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Yes, this would be for imaging only. Like most things astro it wouldn't be a big money spinner since the market is small. And of course, like most things in this game, it would most likely be stupidly expensive.

Reflectors get some of the integration points, similar to what you've linked with the AG Optical stuff, but refractors? You might get an integrated electronic focuser if you're lucky.
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:48 PM
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Well, of course if you want to roll your own, you do it. Yet, people buy mounts with extra connections or features they don't need. We also get guide cameras with ST4 ports but I don't want that, etc.

Think a bit out of the box here. Yes, it's at the whim of the designer/manufacturer what they include, but the idea is integration. Do you prefer to drape dew straps over your refractor? And a computer controlled flats/scope cover that's designed and made for the scope is of no interest?
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Old 13-09-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lazjen View Post
Well, of course if you want to roll your own, you do it. Yet, people buy mounts with extra connections or features they don't need. We also get guide cameras with ST4 ports but I don't want that, etc.

Think a bit out of the box here. Yes, it's at the whim of the designer/manufacturer what they include, but the idea is integration. Do you prefer to drape dew straps over your refractor? And a computer controlled flats/scope cover that's designed and made for the scope is of no interest?
There is a BIG difference between getting a scope/phone/camera that has built in ports to being told what heaters etc to buy that is obvious

Also common sense, many many people have more than one scope, I have three why in gods name would any manufacturer in their right mind force people (me, a new one every time I buy a scope) to have to buy THREE dew heaters, for a start, think about it, next you will want Ninon, Canon, Fuji, Pentax, Sony etc to insist that all their cameras will come with a camera bag, tripod and set of filters for landscape photography, etc, so I have two cameras, therefore two sets of everything I think not.

I want to chose my own bag that suits me not the manufacturer, my own dew heater control and separate heater strips for my three scopes, my own diagonals etc, I am not a sheep to be led
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Old 13-09-2019, 09:33 PM
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You'd buy 3 if you were operating 3 scopes at once. And you might not operate 3 scopes at once (and many wouldn't), but 2 at once is definitely not rare.

With integration, in this case, the dew heater system, the idea is that you're not told to buy a particular heater - you don't have to buy anything because the feature of dew heating is integrated into the scope itself.
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Old 13-09-2019, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by lazjen View Post
You'd buy 3 if you were operating 3 scopes at once. And you might not operate 3 scopes at once (and many wouldn't), but 2 at once is definitely not rare.

With integration, in this case, the dew heater system, the idea is that you're not told to buy a particular heater - you don't have to buy anything because the feature of dew heating is integrated into the scope itself.
You have just argued against your own comment, If I we were to go down your line of thinking every time anyone bought a scope you would end up with a dew controller control box, three scope three controllers

I BUY three scopes, ONE control box and three different length strips
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Old 13-09-2019, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lazjen View Post
With integration, in this case, the dew heater system, the idea is that you're not told to buy a particular heater - you don't have to buy anything because the feature of dew heating is integrated into the scope itself.
It isn't free it is all budgeted for in the cost of the scope ?????? therefore forcing you to buy what you don't want.

And............. sorry you ARE told what to buy, YOU have just said it is integrated into the scope.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, I think you need to think through your replies, sorry
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Old 14-09-2019, 07:00 AM
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Ok, it's clear to me that you don't understand what I am saying. At no point have I said anything about it being free or that this is mandatory and only choice. As always, market forces will dictate if there's a demand.

Integration of features is always a thing. Cars at one point didn't have radios or ways to play music. Guess what? It came along. And people accepted what they were given or replaced it with something else. If I was to buy a luxury car that comes with a sound system, I'd be expecting that sound system to match the expectations of what I'm buying, i.e. top quality, etc.

Stop zoning in on dew heaters - they're just one example of a feature that could be integrated. Also, I had to "throw out" the focuser on one of my scopes because it was not up to task and it was not electronically controllable. According to your reasoning, this included focuser is something I should not have had to buy, since it wasn't something I could use. Yet a basic focuser is included ("integrated") with every scope, because it's expected, and the market demands it.

On other astro related items - Celestron and others sell combined (or "integrated") scope and mounts. Now I may not want them, but someone certainly does as they obviously sell.
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Old 14-09-2019, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazjen View Post
Given the wide variety of gear that's out there for the astro community, I'm wondering why I haven't seen scopes that are more integrated.

By integration, I mean the things we tend to add on to the scope - dew heaters, electronic focuser, controllable flats device, controllable cover, etc.

Imagine being able to buy a nice refractor with these items that takes power + USB connection. Then with mounts with nice cabling choices, plug in the refractor to it, and off you go. Reduce those cables everywhere.

Ok, it would take some interesting design and engineering work to pull off, but wouldn't it be amazing?
Good point Chris.

I think my CDK250 - see the ATM section - takes a big step in that direction.
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Old 14-09-2019, 08:12 AM
ab1963 (Andrew)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukastronomer View Post
It isn't free it is all budgeted for in the cost of the scope ?????? therefore forcing you to buy what you don't want.

And............. sorry you ARE told what to buy, YOU have just said it is integrated into the scope.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, I think you need to think through your replies, sorry

Hey champ you need to take a chill pill he is only putting it out there to see what others think in conjunction with what would suite him this kind of aggression is not called for this area is for discussion not strip to the waist bare knuckle fighting.......
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Old 14-09-2019, 08:31 AM
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I think a scope with a really decent electronic focuser, heated dew tube, flats cap motorised, and camera with guiding chip and OAG and wifi would be great and could end up being cheaper than buying a scope and adding this and that...and Jeremy there would still be alternatives one could think such that you can proceed your way.

Your OAG would be no more than a prism hanging off a molding in the focuser...there are so many things that you could streamline and make more efficient..imagine not having to screw around to get your sensor the correct distance from the flatener or to have focus completely automatic..same with dew control. Built in filter wheel ...I want one.
Alex

While we are at it automatic tilt adjustment as well.
Alex

Last edited by RB; 08-10-2019 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 14-09-2019, 08:39 AM
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Too much integration makes maintenance dearer. There are a lot of different parts depending on what you do with your rig, so modularity is a plus when one component in the chain fails and needs replacement. So those all in one systems might look pretty and self contained, but might not be practical in the long run.
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Old 14-09-2019, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazjen View Post
Given the wide variety of gear that's out there for the astro community, I'm wondering why I haven't seen scopes that are more integrated.

By integration, I mean the things we tend to add on to the scope - dew heaters, electronic focuser, controllable flats device, controllable cover, etc.

Imagine being able to buy a nice refractor with these items that takes power + USB connection. Then with mounts with nice cabling choices, plug in the refractor to it, and off you go. Reduce those cables everywhere.

Ok, it would take some interesting design and engineering work to pull off, but wouldn't it be amazing?
Some manufacturers include neatly incorporated mirror heaters as standard and will install whichever focuser you desire, including dedicated field corrector mounted at the right position with adapters made for the camera. So if one has an integrated camera/FW/OAG/AO unit, then it is pretty much plug and play. It's even easier with a mount allowing for cable management (through the mount cabling and/or USB/power ports).

Other than that, there already is a water-proof all-integrated smart-phone controlled 80mm aperture imaging solution for $6kUS (from memory) discussed in another thread on IIS, but the feedback from fellow members has been less than positive about such fully integrated solution.
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Old 14-09-2019, 09:28 AM
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Integration works when the item or feature can be well associated and provides a good difference to the alternatives, in our case our usual roll our own solutions.

Personally I split oag, guide camera and fw as part of the camera subsystem so the integration points should be in that area, and there's examples of that already out there.

And I do agree that integrated systems are higher maintenance, but that's what we see everywhere. A properly designed system could mitigate failures if thought is given to maintainance and repair. I certainly wouldn't like to see systems that were like our smartphones for example.
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Old 14-09-2019, 09:54 AM
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Suavi the all in one solution is an example of either going too far or not doing the job right. Too many compromises and you defeat the purpose of putting it together.

To me there are 3 major systems that are the core places that can work well for integration. Mount, camera and scope. We've got good examples for the first 2, but not much for the last one. At least there are some manufacturers that will customise so that's something.
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Old 14-09-2019, 10:29 AM
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Cabling integration is going to weigh heavily on my choice of next mount. CEM60 is currently looking pretty attractive given they seem to perform well and the only thing I would need/want to do is run a USB3 connection up the middle, which is has provision for. No sense in having USB3 speeds available at the camera to speed up things like focus runs and not taking advantage of it.


I don't agree with Jeremy on this one though (Which is fine, everyone is allowed their own opinion) I think Celestron Et Al should include dew management integrated in the corrector cell of every SCT they make. It is almost inevitable that they will need to have it. Apart from mid summer, if I had no heater on it I might as well leave the C925 in the shed, the night would be over before proper astronomical dark seven times out of ten without it.
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Old 15-09-2019, 07:47 AM
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I suspect it will need to take a market disruptor to get these types of changes through. There's no real incentive for the current players to change what they are doing.
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