Notre Dame

[xelasnave]

Its time to give ND back to the church..that would be the decent thing to do☺
Alex

[JA]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

We can only take the bright side which will be different for each person ..for me I must say one less church is a good start, ...

I hope that one day you will find peace in your heart.

Best
JA

[RyanJones]

Originally Posted by Rob_K

Just to correct a misunderstanding that appears consistently through this thread - the Roman Catholic church does not own the Notre Dame Cathedral (and indeed hasn't through a number of phases of the cathedral's history). It's now owned by the French Ministry of Culture and they are responsible for its maintenance. That is, the French people own it!

However due to the high cost of its maintenance, the Friends of Notre-Dame de Paris organisation was set up as a charity by the Archbishop of Paris & the diocese to raise money for its upkeep.

Cheers -

Thank you for clarifying that Rob. I for one wasn't aware of that.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by JA

I hope that one day you will find peace in your heart.

Best
JA

I use my heart for pumping blood but I thank you for kind wishes.

Although I think the whole deal is fake I do follow the bits that support my notion of doing the right thing, respecting others and all forms of life even what most humans consider humble or annoying..eg mozzies or house flies have my respect and get my protection they are after all part of the mix some call creation.
And I think I am at peace..these days..which I attribute to accepting personal responsibilty and not blaming others or putting things down to fate or good or bad luck.
Moreove I am able to see myself as others see me and not hold a favourable construct of who I see myself to be...that has been the most powerful thing in my life..I see myself as meek and mild yet others see the opposite but fortunately I understand how they take a few times where I have been over the top and paint a picture of someone I know deep down that I am not.
And I find peace in although believing in myself and proceeding in all matyers with confidence that I am really only a mug who had more luck than talent.
Thanks again JA.. I know enough about your side to know your wish is sincere and respect you and your life management choice.
Alex

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I must say one less church is a good start,

I realise this thread is probably about to get TOSsed.

Alex - for the building, absolutely diasgree. It's a monument to the people that built it, not the people they built it for. I for one was in awe of what they had achieved when I visited the place. For the institution - you have a valid point there.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by N1

I realise this thread is probably about to get TOSsed.

Alex - for the building, absolutely diasgree. It's a monument to the people that built it, not the people they built it for. I for one was in awe of what they had achieved when I visited the place. For the institution - you have a valid point there.

Hi Mirko

I hope the thread survives I have found it very interesting and informative..Take the ownership..one, me for one, assumes that ND is owned by the church...how often do I need to remind myself not to assume anything..even the most simple and clearly apparent truths...and as some have here. ..never generalise..oh and never say never.

Religious discussion often goes downhill but for me it makes me realise that other folk have a reality different to mine..I think it is healthy to always be reminded that reality is best approached as subjective rather than objective...and I see merit in respecting anothers subjective analysis of their world.

But remember you are talking to someone who does not accept the big bang or creation and content to accept that I really dont know and to offer any answer can only be speculation irrespective of the science or scripture presented in support.
I do see where you are coming from and I would say your point has a validity that can not be ignored but I feel that as with most things it is not as clear cut as you I or anyone would present here...

What is being overlooked is someone must have been negligent at best or at worst case perhaps evil...meaning criminal..


I will be intetested to see a professionals analysis of the event leading up to the fire...so often these events when analysed show an unlikely chain of events each of which somewhat harmless but when put together explain an unlikely accident.

Alex

[leon]

It is tragic but even if it rebuilt it is not history anymore, it will never be the same.
It burning to the ground is history.

Leon

[xelasnave]

I am watching Arrowsmith play at the Colossium...that place should be rebuilt...
Alex

[blindman]

Originally Posted by astroron

I am in the camp of not spending 1 Euro on this building while there are thousands of Sick,Homeless,and destitute people in the world.
We have famine's massive drought's throughout Africa etc.
I wish there was such generosity when thousands to millions of people are starving throughout the world.
These type of buildings do not glorify "God" they glorify mans vanity and
Ego.
Henry the eight had the right idea,just go round Britain and see his handy work.
I don't see anyone rebuilding those churches.
Just my 2 penny worth.
Cheers

Imagine how many people can be feed instead wasting DAILY 52,000,000 US$ on NASA !

[sharpiel]

Originally Posted by blindman

Imagine how many people can be feed instead wasting DAILY 52,000,000 US$ on NASA !

Blasphemy!

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by blindman

Imagine how many people can be feed instead wasting DAILY 52,000,000 US$ on NASA !

Well that money certainly does feed many people if you think it through and the positive is they work in reality not make believe.

Any money spent anywhere is good as the more money spent on whatever the more disposable income for someone who may give some to charity.

But really we will be better off spending money in areas of science than in church building if you think about it.

Alex

[skysurfer]

Originally Posted by AndyG

As Mental said, I personally hope they build something beautiful, that makes history from today. Maybe a fusion of Stone, wood, steel, glass, and graphene...

Perhaps it could be multi function, like a church/school/soup kitchen, meeting the needs of many. Even if the "social welfare" geared sections were in the basement, as to not compete with the tourist driven sections above.

I think it should be restored in its original state, although with modern construction techniques. It is not anymore possible to fell thousands of oaks for the trusses of the roof. There are no construction workers available to do this 13th century style construction work.

It is better to use modern design and construction techniques, such as a steel skeleton roof and spire and the use of concrete, cladded with replicas of the original roof elements and the spire ornaments. And no lead on the roof due to lead poisoning hazard. And obviously good fire safety.
There was 250 tons of lead used which was molten with even vaporization due to the heat of the fire.

[Ukastronomer (Jeremy)]

Originally Posted by JA

I hope that one day you will find peace in your heart.

Best
JA

Sorry I agree with JA, religion is on the way out we know how the universe was created now and it wasn't divine intervention.

[Ukastronomer (Jeremy)]

Originally Posted by blindman

Imagine how many people can be feed instead wasting DAILY 52,000,000 US$ on NASA !

That is a dumb comment, when the Earth finally can sustain no more life through overpopulation and rape of the world you will be grateful for NASA etc

Perhaps this thread is over.................

[Ukastronomer (Jeremy)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

well that money certainly does feed many people if you think it through and the positive is they work in reality not make believe.

Any money spent anywhere is good as the more money spent on whatever the more disposable income for someone who may give some to charity.

But really we will be better off spending money in areas of science than in church building if you think about it.

Alex

a1+



.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by blindman

Imagine how many people can be feed instead wasting DAILY 52,000,000 US$ on NASA !

Are you sure about your numbers?

I worked out it is about 10% of what you claim...tell me I am wrong or ammend your claim in the interest of recording the truth.

Their buget is less than .6% of GNP I think.

Personally I think the religious organisations can be looked at with greater distain as the dont pay any tax..that is just so wrong..treat them as the businesses they are and make charitable outgoings deductables....who could complain about that? think of the rich pastors with private jets ..you know I saw one guy appealing for money to fund his third private jet...cant waste time in the public airport as that takes away from time doing the lords works..I applaude such concern about efficiency..but what struck me as odd was his appeal to only send multiples of $1000 s and telling folk how they could get a loan to raise a donation...with a promise that their donation would come back ten fold....you want to talk morality relating to spending I would be happy to represent NASA if you want to represent all the tax avoiding good folk.
Alex

[raymo]

I agree that religion is on the way out in some parts of the world, but certainly far from everywhere.
As to knowing how the universe was created, we have only theories which can't be tested, and suppositions, and are a very long way from knowing.
raymo

[xelasnave]

It will be a long long really long time before religion leaves humans if ever.

Creation...let me explain the problem for the idea of creation and explain why the universe is no doubt eternal and has always been and always will be.

Firstly creation implies that something can come from nothing which is impossible because first and foremost there can be no condition existing that humans describe as nothing simply because if there is nothing there then you must find something.

Further experience tells us that even when we think we have nothing a close examination always shows there to be something for example one may say this cup is empty and yet critical examination shows that the cup if full of air something where one made the mistake of concluding that there was indeed nothing..and even in the most remote and empty place in space examination clearly shows that it will have photons and almost unlimited nutrinos rushing hither and thither so much so one could wonder how do they all fit.

Nothing..I don't think so.

Nothing like many names humans invent describes a condition that is impossible to find in reality and the only reason that reality does not become obvious is few take but an hour or two to think the matter thru and make a logical assessment unguided by something sproutted by an authority figure who also has never given the matter an hour or two to considering the basless statement they happily rattle off without backup or tested models.

But doesnt the big bang theory say everything came from nothing? ..well no it does not say that at all..the big bang theory only deals with the evolution of the universe from a hot dense state...it only deals with the evolution of the universe and it says nothing whatsoever about creation...nothing (and here I use the word appropriately) but let us be clear and put it absolutely clear as one can ... the big bang theory picks up the story after a point in time which the theory nominates as a starting point...so the theory does not suggest anything more than a hot dense state...certainly not nothing..

.So where does the idea that the theory deals with a point of creation...perhaps the catholic priest who invented the theory and was preoccupied, along with many "thinkers" in the catholic church at that time..the preoccupation with the pagan notion of creation starting with a cosmic egg..yes a cosmic egg or as modern science renamed it "a singularity"... but remember a "singularity" is a point where the math breaks down and therefore can make no reliable predictions and certainly does not make a prediction that can be tested against the math..the math does not now exist..past this boundary lay dragons and stuff..

.But the math takes us back to a universe that was hot and dense and that certainly is not nothing and does not hint at at all at a condition loosely referred to as nothing and certainly does not hint in the slightest at a point of creation. ...creation is wishful thinking on the part of the inventer of the big bang theory and all those who although not happy with the biblical account merely seek a creation point for whatever reason..

.before we suggest creation we must be able to show that there was at some point nothing and that our hot dense something was created from nothing..it was not and it could not come from nothing..hence there is no creation point and the universe is eternal.

The big bang only starts time at an arbitrary point when as the theory alledges the hot dense state inflated faster than the speed of light and for all practical qualification instantly..that put in terms expressed by Neil De Grasse .. in a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillionth of a second..what that is saying is the univetse grew from a hot dense, size of a grapefruit size, to the size of the current observable universe in a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillionth of a second..you cant get more instant than that folks...but even that unsupported claim does not mention a point of creation.

Creation is an idea humans need for they simply can not comprehend the obvious reality that the universe is indeed eternal.

Everything comes from something and nothing is an unsupported myth.

What makes more sense an eternal universe or an eternal entity popping out of eternity to create a finite universe.

The eternal universe wins hands down and does not have to trash religious belief but religious belief must fit within such a context to be retain any credibility.

And folk must abandon all notions that the big bang theory points to creation...it simply does not☺.
Alex

[Sparksinspace (Steve)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

It will be a long long really long time before religion leaves humans if ever.

Creation...let me explain the problem for the idea of creation and explain why the universe is no doubt eternal and has always been and always will be.

Firstly creation implies that something can come from nothing which is impossible because first and foremost there can be no condition existing that humans describe as nothing simply because if there is nothing there then you must find something.

Further experience tells us that even when we think we have nothing a close examination always shows there to be something for example one may say this cup is empty and yet critical examination shows that the cup if full of air something where one made the mistake of concluding that there was indeed nothing..and even in the most remote and empty place in space examination clearly shows that it will have photons and almost unlimited nutrinos rushing hither and thither so much so one could wonder how do they all fit.

Nothing..I don't think so.

Nothing like many names humans invent describes a condition that is impossible to find in reality and the only reason that reality does not become obvious is few take but an hour or two to think the matter thru and make a logical assessment unguided by something sproutted by an authority figure who also has never given the matter an hour or two to considering the basless statement they happily rattle off without backup or tested models.

But doesnt the big bang theory say everything came from nothing? ..well no it does not say that at all..the big bang theory only deals with the evolution of the universe from a hot dense state...it only deals with the evolution of the universe and it says nothing whatsoever about creation...nothing (and here I use the word appropriately) but let us be clear and put it absolutely clear as one can ... the big bang theory picks up the story after a point in time which the theory nominates as a starting point...so the theory does not suggest anything more than a hot dense state...certainly not nothing..

.So where does the idea that the theory deals with a point of creation...perhaps the catholic priest who invented the theory and was preoccupied, along with many "thinkers" in the catholic church at that time..the preoccupation with the pagan notion of creation starting with a cosmic egg..yes a cosmic egg or as modern science renamed it "a singularity"... but remember a "singularity" is a point where the math breaks down and therefore can make no reliable predictions and certainly does not make a prediction that can be tested against the math..the math does not now exist..past this boundary lay dragons and stuff..

.But the math takes us back to a universe that was hot and dense and that certainly is not nothing and does not hint at at all at a condition loosely referred to as nothing and certainly does not hint in the slightest at a point of creation. ...creation is wishful thinking on the part of the inventer of the big bang theory and all those who although not happy with the biblical account merely seek a creation point for whatever reason..

.before we suggest creation we must be able to show that there was at some point nothing and that our hot dense something was created from nothing..it was not and it could not come from nothing..hence there is no creation point and the universe is eternal.

The big bang only starts time at an arbitrary point when as the theory alledges the hot dense state inflated faster than the speed of light and for all practical qualification instantly..that put in terms expressed by Neil De Grasse .. in a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillionth of a second..what that is saying is the univetse grew from a hot dense, size of a grapefruit size, to the size of the current observable universe in a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillionth of a second..you cant get more instant than that folks...but even that unsupported claim does not mention a point of creation.

Creation is an idea humans need for they simply can not comprehend the obvious reality that the universe is indeed eternal.

Everything comes from something and nothing is an unsupported myth.

What makes more sense an eternal universe or an eternal entity popping out of eternity to create a finite universe.

The eternal universe wins hands down and does not have to trash religious belief but religious belief must fit within such a context to be retain any credibility.

And folk must abandon all notions that the big bang theory points to creation...it simply does not☺.
Alex

I think you miss the mark. everyone focuses on nothing, When its everything that should be considered, nothing in my opinion, is made of everything and this is where both sides can exist.

[RyanJones]

There seems be a tether being drawn between religion and Catholicism.

I for one have no issue with religion as I have no issue with guns. Fire away, just don't point your gun at me or anyone else.

God or whichever variation you believe in has a place in the minds of those that need it to be. If you need to believe in an almighty and that's what gets you through the day then so be it. If you and a group of like minded people want to build a temple to come together and celebrate that then by all means go for it. Just don't force your ideas on others and don't claim to be anymore than a group of like minded people. Who knows, in a few hundred years, your temple may become a national treasure and as such we'll help pay to rebuild it when it burns down. Not because we are religious but because your building has historical relevance.

As far as money being spent on buildings and assets or going to the moon rather than feeding the poor or housing the homeless I have one thing to say.

Evolution was not born from the preservation of the weak.