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  #1  
Old 22-05-2010, 12:21 AM
mbaddah (Mo)
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To servocat or not to servocat?

I'm weighing up whether I should get the Servocat added to my SDM or not. The following are my brief list of pro's and con's:

Advantages:

- Tracking!!! Useful mainly for tracking planets at high magnifications and for public viewing.
- Save time hunting for object and spend more time observing
- Basic DSO astrophotography (I understand been a dob it'll suffer from field rotation). Maybe with focal reducer (f ratio is f4.75) can get it to down to something more manageable? Lunar/Planetary photography should be a breeze.

Disadvantages:

- Price
- Extra power needed.

Have I missed anything? If anyone with experience can shed some light on the servocat it would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
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  #2  
Old 22-05-2010, 07:54 AM
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xstream (John)
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We have ServoCat on our SDM and wouldn't be without it.

Extra power is negligible if you get Peter to get you the Waeco 36 AmpHr battery pack you have more than enough to run everything for a couple of nights.
Price, well it's horses for courses you get what you're prepared to pay for.

The convenience of having ServoCat is magic, dial up what you want on your Argo press GoTo on the remote, then just relax and enjoy the view through the eyepiece to me it's a no brainer.
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Old 22-05-2010, 02:24 PM
gary
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ServoCAT slew and track

Hi M,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbaddah View Post
- Tracking!!! Useful mainly for tracking planets at high magnifications and
for public viewing.
The tracking is useful even with DSO's at modest powers. Some say,
anecdotally, that find having a ServoCAT fitted is also like adding some
additional inches of aperture. Since the brain plays such a key part in perception
and image processing, it has more time to concentrate on the image presented to
it when you don't have the distraction of having to manually nudge the scope now and
then. With the tracking, you find yourself looking at most objects for longer
and doing so with more scrutiny which is a key benefit to the art of observation.

Quote:
- Save time hunting for object and spend more time observing
As you know with the Argo Navis, it takes away the chore of having to hunt
down objects so you can spend more time looking at them than looking for them.
When the ServoCAT is added, what is neat is that you simply dial up the object
on the Argo Navis display, hit the ServoCAT GOTO button and it slews to the
object.

There is no doubt that the tracking is of more benefit than the ability to slew.
However, if you are like me and tend to observe with a group of friends, there
is a surprising benefit to slew which is that if you are in the middle of conversation
you can just hit the GOTO button and carry on with minimal interruption whilst the
motors do the work. At best you might need to move the ladder but the act
of doing that does not distract one from listening or talking. When the
conversation takes a break, one of the party can step up to the eyepiece and the
object is then ready to be looked at.

Quote:
Basic DSO astrophotography (I understand been a dob it'll suffer from field rotation). Maybe with focal reducer (f ratio is f4.75) can get it to down to something more manageable? Lunar/Planetary photography should be a breeze.
Some owners use multiple short exposures, software field de-rotation and
capture lunar, planetary and DSO's.

For example, see Johannes Brachtendorf's pages here -
http://homepages.uni-tuebingen.de/jo....brachtendorf/
http://homepages.uni-tuebingen.de/jo...r/Galaxies.htm
http://homepages.uni-tuebingen.de/jo...er/Nebulae.htm
http://homepages.uni-tuebingen.de/jo.../Equipment.htm

Quote:
Disadvantages:

- Price
- Extra power needed.
A sealed lead acid battery and a battery charger are all you need.

Another advantage is that should you migrate to a different scope in the future,
say a larger aperture scope, you can take the ServoCAT with you.

As you are probably also aware, the ServoCAT uses servos rather than steppers
which have significant advantages in telescope control applications.

Recommend you email Gary Myers and ask for a free copy of their installation DVD.
I know he would only be too happy to answer any questions you may have.

Best regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place
Mount Kuring-Gai NSW 2080
Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #4  
Old 22-05-2010, 02:36 PM
gb_astro
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Agree with John re power and convenience.
Even a 17 AH jumpstarter will power ServoCat, Argo and heaters etc. all night.

If you are going to do AP you should check with Peter to see if you have the necessary focus range. This might involve shorter poles and a larger secondary. I am pretty sure Peter stopped advertising the option to have his scopes set up for imaging.

gb.
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  #5  
Old 23-05-2010, 05:02 PM
ausastronomer (John Bambury)
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Hi SAB,

This is a difficult decision and really you are the only one who can answer it.

I currently have 3 scopes. An 18" Obsession, a 14" SDM and a 10" GSO tube dob. Both of the larger scopes have Argo Navis and Servocat fitted. I wouldn't be without it on those two larger scopes. The 10" GSO only has Argo navis on it. As Gary previously mentioned motorised tracking adds 10% to the scopes aperture IMO.

Peter is currently building me a 10"/F5.3 baby truss dob, which will be my travel light, travel scope, to replace the 10" GSO, which doesn't travel so light. The 10" truss scope will have a premium everything on it, including Argo Navis, Mark Suchting mirror, Feathertouch focuser, Protostar heated quartz secondary etc etc. When it is finished it will cost me well over $4,000, which is a lot of money for a 10" newtonian. As much as I wanted to, I couldn't justify spending another $2,500 or so and fitting Servocat to it. Particularly, considering this will easily be my least used scope. However, if "cost was no object", it would be on there in a heartbeat.

Cheers,
John B
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Old 23-05-2010, 11:41 PM
mbaddah (Mo)
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Thank you John, Gary, gb and John B for your responses.

I'm glad to hear the power consumption is negligible. Gary I totally agree with your comment about seen things better when the brain is less distracted, this I'm realising as I become a more experienced visual observer.

gb i'll ask Peter about the astrophotography part, you may be right I think.

The 10" sounds like a very nice scope John
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  #7  
Old 26-05-2010, 01:53 PM
Paul Hatchman
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Just to add a slightly different opinion. Consider an EQ platform as an alternative. I've used both servocat and platform dobs for a couple of years now and I prefer the platform. (A dual-Axis aluminium platform from Equatorial Platforms)

Coupled with the argo-navis, you still get all the intuitive push-pull feel of a dob that automatically tracks when you let go. If you get a dual-axis platform you get slow motion controls as well as auto-guiding for photography. I find it is faster to slew and much easier to search for an object. (Though the spiral search on servocat is nice, I find centring the object can be a pain in practice).


There are some disadvantages though:
One more piece of kit to carry (and it is bulky)
It will raise the eyepeice height by about 15-20cm.
You have to align it roughly south and reset it periodically.
Inaccurate platform alignment to south, makes the argo less accurate over time, until you reset the platform.

But for me (and I think this comes down to personal taste) after using a scope on a platform for a couple of years now, I would not ever consider putting a servo-cat on it. It works so well.

Some people have been doing great photography on dual-axis platforms (with auto-guider ports) and after drift-aligning it tracks nicely unguided with my Mallincam.

See Robert Brunk's page for some excellent platform/dob images http://www.robertbrunck.com/

Cheers.

Last edited by Paul Hatchman; 27-05-2010 at 09:09 AM.
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  #8  
Old 26-05-2010, 03:48 PM
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Louwai (Bryan)
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I have Servo Cat & Argo Navis on my 20" SDM . And as others have said, I wouldn't be without it.
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  #9  
Old 26-05-2010, 10:40 PM
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AstroJunk (Jonathan)
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I'm certainly no astrophotographer, but I put this collage together of my very humble efforts...

I did very much enjoy the purity of just ArgoNavis, but I wouldn't go back since ServoCat was installed.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (BIGDOB.jpg)
73.2 KB129 views
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  #10  
Old 27-05-2010, 02:18 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroJunk View Post
I'm certainly no astrophotographer, but I put this collage together of my very humble efforts...

I did very much enjoy the purity of just ArgoNavis, but I wouldn't go back since ServoCat was installed.
Jonathan,

Thank you very much for putting together this wonderful montage of images
and for posting them here on IceInSpace.

A recurrent theme that pops up in astronomy forums is that imaging anything other than
the Moon and planets on a large Dob is not practically possible. Reading some commentary,
one could be lead to believe that imaging DSO's on a large aperture Dob cannot
be done and that one would need to invest in a second dedicated equatorial mount
to achieve this goal. Well, as they also say, seeing is believing and your results
might give other large Dob owners the encouragement they need to dabble in
some DSO astrophotography with their scopes. Thank you!

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #11  
Old 27-05-2010, 09:24 PM
mbaddah (Mo)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman View Post
Just to add a slightly different opinion. Consider an EQ platform as an alternative. I've used both servocat and platform dobs for a couple of years now and I prefer the platform. (A dual-Axis aluminium platform from Equatorial Platforms)

Coupled with the argo-navis, you still get all the intuitive push-pull feel of a dob that automatically tracks when you let go. If you get a dual-axis platform you get slow motion controls as well as auto-guiding for photography. I find it is faster to slew and much easier to search for an object. (Though the spiral search on servocat is nice, I find centring the object can be a pain in practice).


There are some disadvantages though:
One more piece of kit to carry (and it is bulky)
It will raise the eyepeice height by about 15-20cm.
You have to align it roughly south and reset it periodically.
Inaccurate platform alignment to south, makes the argo less accurate over time, until you reset the platform.

But for me (and I think this comes down to personal taste) after using a scope on a platform for a couple of years now, I would not ever consider putting a servo-cat on it. It works so well.

Some people have been doing great photography on dual-axis platforms (with auto-guider ports) and after drift-aligning it tracks nicely unguided with my Mallincam.

See Robert Brunk's page for some excellent platform/dob images http://www.robertbrunck.com/

Cheers.
Thanks Paul i'll look into the dual-axis platform. It does sound like a bit of an overkill though for what I'm trying to achieve? (i.e. simple tracking with some little astrophotography).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroJunk

I'm certainly no astrophotographer, but I put this collage together of my very humble efforts...
Jonathan they are beautiful pictures! I'd be very happy if I could take pictures like that

Did you have to modify your SDM though to reach focus?

I have contacted Peter regarding setting up my SDM for both visual and photographic use, and I decided it wasn't worth modifying the SDM for photographic purposes. The focuser needs changing ( from a FTF2015BCR to a FTF2025BCR), meaning eyepieces have to be at the focusers furthest out limit (will cause problems for many eyepieces to come into focus). Poles are cut shorter, pole blocks are set at greater angle, the diagonal is upsized from 2.6" to 3.1", adding bulk to the UTA.

I assume the only way to achieve focus with an SLR then would be to use a barlow/powermate, which is fine for planetary photography. However for DSO, the focal length would be too great?
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Old 27-05-2010, 10:07 PM
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Thanks for the kind words chaps. The black and white images are with a Gstar-EX, and the colour with Meade DSI III colour (except for Jupiter which was with a ToUCam). So nothing exotic and very little post processing. It really demonstrates how easy it is to image!

The main issue that I have had is actually in the tracking of servocat. It actually does an incredible job, and together with Peter’s precision engineering, an object will remain in my 17mm Nagler forever. But these ccd chips have a tiny field of view, so the miniscule mount misalignments make a big difference to imaging and the image ‘wanders’ as well as rotates which reduces the maximum exposure to a few seconds.

The TPAS routine that Garry has written for ArgoNavis is superb – it means that I can slew to an object and for it to be on-chip most of the time. Stunningly impressive, but unfortunately, after the slew, the more simplistic tracking routine from servocat kicks in.

Don’t get me wrong – Servocat is brilliant, and the best available – it just wasn’t designed to do what I have been asking it to! I have got autoguiding working with servocat which actually fixes the tracking issue, but I haven’t really used it much. I don’t image very much…

As for scope changes – I lopped about 30mm off the poles and upped the secondary to a 3.5” (I think!). I didn’t reset the blocks as the difference is easily accommodated by the flex in the poles, and the Feathertouch required no changes. I actually prefer the visual view with the larger secondary – I can clearly see the better illumination in my favourite nagler.

I had thought about one of those dual axis platforms, but one of the biggest imaging issues with a big-un is the wind! It’s is only possible in dead-calm and I guessed that if I caught the bug, I would have to go and get a 5m dome next!
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Old 28-05-2010, 02:15 PM
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So none of you guy's with ServoCat have problems with it? Don't find the cabling a nuisance, or have problems with accurate tracking?

I have a mate who's installed ServoCat on his 15" Obsession some months ago, and he has intermittent problems where it doesn't behave. And he hasn't got it tracking well enough to do his webcam imaging of the planets yet - drifts lots.



From his experience is sort of struck me that there's a lot to be said for keeping it simple and not having ServoCat
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Old 28-05-2010, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
From his experience is sort of struck me that there's a lot to be said for keeping it simple and not having ServoCat
I think you would be better drawing from the experience of the hundreds of delighted customers who have had no issues whatsoever

Last edited by AstroJunk; 28-05-2010 at 07:28 PM.
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  #15  
Old 29-05-2010, 10:28 AM
Paul Hatchman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbaddah View Post
Thanks Paul i'll look into the dual-axis platform. It does sound like a bit of an overkill though for what I'm trying to achieve? (i.e. simple tracking with some little astrophotography).
What do you mean by overkill? A more basic platform than what I have will be cheaper than a servocat and much easier to install (no cutting, drilling etc). And any platform will give you tracking, offer longer exposures than the servocat and use less power. (e.g. the compact platform here: http://www.equatorialplatforms.com/compact.shtml)

The biggest disadvantage is the bulkiness compared to the servocat. That is a deal-breaker for some people.

Cheers.
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Old 29-05-2010, 11:05 PM
gary
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Hi Roger,

Thanks for the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
So none of you guy's with ServoCat have problems with it?
The ServoCAT itself is a mature, stable and immensely popular product, particularly
for medium to large Dobs.

It is a sophisticated system, comprising a dual axis servo controller, dual servo motors
with their own encoders, support for wired and wireless handpads as well
as communications interfaces for a DTC/DSC and well as a laptop/PC. The motors
have their own internal gear boxes and in turn are typically interfaced to each
axis of the mount by way of knurled coupling with the ground board for the Az
axis and via a cable drive for the Alt axis, both of which can be disengaged by
a couple of levers to allow the scope to still be pushed manually if the user desires.

When one considers the spectrum of accessories available for telescopes, at
one end of the scale you have components such as an eyepiece, where the
device has either no or few moving parts and if the optics designer got his part
right and the end user remembers to remove the eyecaps, then the chance of
having a problem with it is next to zero. At the other end of the scale you
have devices that are significantly more complex, like a Peltier cooled CCD
imaging system interfaced to an autoguider and via cables to a PC and a power
supply, all in turn under the control of some complex software. At this end of the
complexity scale, the chances of encountering a problem increases.

As we are all aware, this is true of many other disciplines , not just astronomy.

However, the point is that devices such as the ServoCAT are in the upper
half of the accessories complexity scale. For example, there are configuration
parameters that the user typically tunes and programs into the controller which
are specific to their own mount. There are mechanical adjustments that the
user can make. So as is typical of any equipment that can be mechanically adjusted
or configured in software, the chances of one never having encountering a problem
are greater than say compared to that of plonking in the eyepiece, where one
simply needs to remember to remove the end caps.

Since the ServoCAT is such a sophisticated device, Gary Myers at StellarCAT
backs it up by providing some of the highest levels of support for any
product on the astronomical market today.
Apart from direct email, there is the ServoCAT forum on Yahoo at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ServoCAT/ and the StellarCAT office will
take phone calls up until 8PM at night Arizona time.

Quote:
Don't find the cabling a nuisance ...
With regards the cabling, most users use one of the stalks available from
Markless Astronomics in North Carolina.
See http://www.marklessastronomics.com/d...0products.html

The ServoCAT device is typically mounted on the rocker and all cables
to it tend to be dressed via cable clips on the inside of the rocker and those
that need to run to the wired or wireless handpad controller and to the
DSC/DTC run up the tube of the stalk. Typical installations have only one
wire pair that runs from the scope to the outside world, namely the 12V power
supply, and the majority of these use the powered ground board option which allows
the power cable to be plugged into the non-moving ground board so the
cable is not rotating with the scope. A common practice is for users to throw
a piece of carpet or mat over the 12V cable so they don't trip on it.
Some of the smaller scopes use small 12V sealed lead acid batteries which
they mount on the inside of the rocker so they have zero external cabling.

Quote:
.. or have problems with accurate tracking?
Quote:
I have a mate who's installed ServoCat on his 15" Obsession some months ago ...

... And he hasn't got it tracking well enough to do his webcam imaging of the planets yet - drifts lots.
On an Alt/Az mount, both axes track simultaneously and with continually variable rates.

In the ServoCAT architecture, the job of calculating these tracking rates in real
time is performed by the DTC/DSC, usually an Argo Navis, rather than by
the ServoCAT.

When a ServoCAT equipped scope does not track well, the first questions that
needs to be asked are does the system point correctly and does the GUIDE
display on the Argo Navis show very nearly 0.0 for both axes whilst the
scope is tracking?

If the scope does not point correctly, it is not because of the ServoCAT.
Pointing is the responsibility of the telescope computer. There are many reasons
why a telescope may not point to where the telescope computer 'thinks' it is pointing.
Typically this can be a result of what we term a 'Category 1' error, which includes
encoder installation problems and user setup errors or what we term 'Category 2'
errors, which are telescope mount fabrication errors.

Pointing errors should be addressed first.

Since tracking is the differential of pointing, poor pointing performance can
result in poor tracking performance.

The Argo Navis and ServoCAT form a closed loop tracking system. If after performing
a GOTO, the Argo Navis first shows 0.0 in its GUIDE mode display but if over
time these guide angle values increase in magnitude, then this usually points to
a ServoCAT parameter configuration issue.

Quote:
... and he has intermittent problems where it doesn't behave
This could well be an additional clue that it is simply a ServoCAT parameter
configuration issue.

Quote:
From his experience is sort of struck me that there's a lot to be said for keeping it simple and not having ServoCat
Better advice would be to suggest to your friend that he contact either Gary Myers
at StellarCAT or myself at Wildcard Innovations for assistance.

Like Gary Myers at StellarCAT, we pride ourselves on the levels of support we
provide. During the day, I am delighted to assist customers in person on the
telephone and we typically assist customers at night as well, including on weekends
by email and by responding on online forums such as these. For example, we even
provide support on Christmas Day. However, if the customer does not contact us,
then it is difficult for us to provide the support they need.

Likewise I know that Dave Kriege at Obsession is only too happy to assist with
regards any telescope related issues.

With the population density in WA being lower than many other parts of the
world, finding a fellow observer with an identical piece of kit to with whom one
can exchange knowledge is more difficult than say in cities like Sydney,
Melbourne and Brisbane. Having a friend that can help can be a big advantage
and for example, here in Sydney, any one observer is probably never that far,
as the crow flies, from someone else that actually owns a ServoCAT and who can
pass on advice. However, for those who are "on their own" as it were, free
support is still readily available.

So if you could please pass this advice onto your friend, we would appreciate it.

Thanks again for the post.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place
Mount Kuring-Gai NSW 2080
Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #17  
Old 30-05-2010, 10:05 AM
Paul Hatchman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Like Gary Myers at StellarCAT, we pride ourselves on the levels of support we provide.
I'd like to second this.

The support I've received from both Gary Myers from StellarCAT and Gary Kopff from Argo Navis has always been superb. And while I'm at it, Tom Osypowski from Equatorial Platforms provides excellent support as well.

I really don't think you can go wrong chosing any of those products.

Cheers.
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Old 30-05-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
Hi Roger,

....
Thanks Gary. I know you in particular but also Gary Myers have been very helpful and my friend has been hugely appreciative of that. It just seems my friend hasn't got it to the point where it's working nicely for him yet.

It's interesting to hear about the involvement of the argonavis, I didn't realise it was so key in the tracking (not just the GoTo) of the mount. That helps my understanding to help him.

We are in that situation you mention of not having anyone neraby who can help in person, usual for astronomy in Perth and something which has held me up for months and months in the past with other issues of my own .. such is life in little old Perth

At last I talked to my friend regarding his setup he was asking for my help to work out "parameters" and help him update and understand "parameters" .. perhaps firmware too, not sure. Probably the parameters you're talking about. You may have been the one to tell him about them. I'll have to see if we can progress that.

I suppose the point for prospective buyers I'd emphasise from my "arms length" experience is that while the product often works great and the support is great, there is no denying it is, as you said, in the end of the complexity scale far from the simplicity of an eyepiece, and so is not necessarily the best choice for everyone I had the feeling from other posts in this thread that people are glossing over the work needed to setup, configure and problem-solve the system.

Thanks for your reply

Roger.
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Old 30-05-2010, 02:04 PM
ausastronomer (John Bambury)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
I suppose the point for prospective buyers I'd emphasise from my "arms length" experience is that while the product often works great and the support is great, there is no denying it is, as you said, in the end of the complexity scale far from the simplicity of an eyepiece, and so is not necessarily the best choice for everyone I had the feeling from other posts in this thread that people are glossing over the work needed to setup, configure and problem-solve the system.

Thanks for your reply

Roger.
Hi Roger,

As Gary mentions and you acknowledge, the Argo Navis/Servocat system is at the upper end of the complexity scale. In this regard having some technoligical and basic to intermediate mechanical/electrical know how, helps enormously.

However, it should be pointed out that having the system installed by someone that knows what they are doing like Dave Kriege at Obsession Telescopes or Peter Read at SDM Telescopes, takes an enormous amount of pain out of the setup and configuration of the system. If you buy the system pre installed on your scope, you essentially point shoot and GOTO and track. If you buy the system "pre installed", all of the setup and configuration parameters are already pre loaded for each specific telescope installation. If you buy it from Peter Read at SDM and have him fit it for you, the system is tested and guaranteed to be working properly before you get the telescope back.

Not having the technical savy and trying to install it yourself, is a bit like a pastry cook trying to fit an exchange engine into his 1970 model Ferrari Daytona at his first attempt at an engine changeover. It isn't that hard if you know what you're doing. If you don't, it is exceedingly difficult at the first attempt without some technical know how.

Cheers,
John B
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  #20  
Old 01-06-2010, 12:17 AM
gary
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ServoCAT tuning parameters

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
Thanks Gary. I know you in particular but also Gary Myers have been very helpful and my friend has been hugely appreciative of that. It just seems my friend hasn't got it to the point where it's working nicely for him yet.
Thank you. We definitely want to see him getting the most out of his system.

Quote:
At last I talked to my friend regarding his setup he was asking for my help to work out "parameters" and help him update and understand "parameters" .. perhaps firmware too, not sure. Probably the parameters you're talking about. You may have been the one to tell him about them. I'll have to see if we can progress that.
To get some feel for what he is talking about, you might want to have a browse
of the Rev 4 ServoCAT Manual for Obsessions which is available here -
http://www.stellarcat.com/Graphics/ServoCAT_v8.pdf
In a nutshell the ServoCAT can be interfaced to a PC and then there is a configuration
program that is run on the PC side that allows one to tune parameters on the
ServoCAT side.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Phone +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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