I thought I would ask the learned community of a dilemma of mine, a friend has expressed interest in using one of my astro images (such as they are) as artwork for a published work and has offered me author credit for the image and/or payment for the use of it.
Now the problems are:
1) I don't know if his product will sell $100 worth or $1M and if I give away my image to use, and with no intention of setting up a web shop or selling other images at this stage, I might miss the boat and end up with nothing.
2) While this came out of the blue and I have never thought of it before as a potential income stream, my instinct is simply to say, sure, feel free to use it as long as you credit me as the image author. BUT, am I silly to do this if my supply of an image for commercial gain is worth something to me?
3) If I decide to sell one or more images, how much should I charge? My shots are only smallish around 1.4MP so they couldn't be considered hi-res, and really don't know what the going rate is?
Think of it as an investment Chris, if that published work is seen by the masses with your name on it, then I would think the 'good will' your business will receive will far exceed the short term monetary return of the sale of the image.
Photography is very much a word-of-mouth business, your name on a successful product or project is free advertising for you.
I photographed hundreds of weddings without ever doing any advertising, rather ensuring the client was happy with the product. Their word of mouth then brought in the customers for years to come.
I get that, the problem is, I don't have any need or want at this stage to generate ongoing business or good will from this, but on the flipside, wouldn't mind the recognition of something like this which could lead me to bigger and better things, obviously with some more commercially viable equipment, time and learning etc
Obviously, with a lazy couple of hundred bucks or more, or a lot more, I could get some much needed things and could generate more interest for me to see this as something more than a hobby right now.
I just don't want to be seen as cocky or greedy if something like a pic of mine has a market value of say $50 and I ask for more than that and miss out completely.
Having said that, $50 would be OK, but am I selling myself short?
I think the key word here is "friend". If you know them well enough you should be able to determine whether the venture is lilkely to return $100 or $1m - maybe you are even in a position to discuss that with them.
Seems to me you've just about answered your own question.
You talk mainly about recognition - and an author credit would give you that. You also say you're not that interested in making a business out of it.
Why not ask for a nominal fee with as you suggest $50 or $100 and see how that goes
and...good luck with it, always exciting when someone wants to use your work (and properly credit you for it!)
Take the time to gauge the request,and the person/organisation,and what they want to use,and how they want to use the image.
A government department using a wildlife image,is going to be different to a aerospace company wanting to promote a aircraft,and so on.Each request needs to be looked at in a different way.By getting the full details of how the usage request is going to be used,will help with working out a fee.
Most request for larger firms,around $100 to $250 per request and go up from there.Also be aware of time frames-is it going to be a never ending use for $100?
It feels a tad uncomfortable,when trying to work all this out,when it first happens-we are doing something we like,and then hey-you have this image people want to pay you for.
But realistically,you have traveled a long road,to get that image (and payed a heap in gear),so its not unreasonable to get some pay for a few here and there,if you have been approached-its not like your out there pushing images for sale.
Once you have a few small sales,and maybe a few photo comp wins,you can find yourself going further ahead in the field.
This year,I have had a national magazine cover ($250) a few small articles,and images used in govt ($1200) and a few other odd photography jobs,so it all adds up,and helps pay for gear.We are always buying something for our photography! Even now-I have just spent $50 on ebay on diving lanyards-for hanging on to bits while wondering around the field!
Some very good points there, thanks for the ideas Chris, seems I may not have been too far off the mark.
It is a difficult thing to judge for sure. As Niko says, it is a friend who is asking, not some random corporation or organisation, so there is a bit of "wanting to help a mate" rolled into it all.
But. It IS for a commercial venture which has the potential to make some real money, whether it is overall a total of $5 or $5000 or even more, but it is hard to tell. He has used some other images in the past on other ventures which I have no way to gauge their success and perhaps (in a perfect world) if I do let him use or pay for my image and this contributes by generating interest in hte product and it takes off, then more will follow and I would have got into the whole thing on the ground floor before it took off?
I have this niggle in the back of my mind that reminds me of those "could have beens", you know the ones, who sold their shares in Apple, or IBM or the like and missed out on a fair chunk of change.....
Not to say that this is a share scheme or business venture, but like has been suggested, I have investment in my hobby which I have not expected any monetary return from so far, so if I can get a smidgen back now and nothing comes of it, then no harm no foul, but without anything further in concrete or any promise of return visible so far, it really is only now a starting point which, I can dip my toe into without any real fear of loss and see where it takes me.
I think I may start with something like $100 to see how it sounds to him, with say, an understanding that I / we may reserve the right to negotiate something more contractual later should the demand increase. I don't hold any hopes of it being a million dollar venture for now, but you never know.
In the end, if all I get out of it (without the need now for formal agreements or contracts or risk of ending a (casual) friendship ) is $100 and a cool story to tell people if it becomes famous, then that is something I suppose?
I will see how that flies and take it from there.
Thanks for the tips, thoughts and suggestions. It has helped give me some perspective.
You should always try to factor in a basic fee and a small pecentage cut for total usage of your work. It could be a fraction of a percent but if they did a 1000 brochures you would still get a cut. The internet makes a fortune of small percentages but lots of users.
As a counter point - it might be worth simply letting your friend have the pic for free provided you receive full and clear credit/acknowledgement for the photo/work. If you are at the start of any career/ambition to make money out of this the cudos and recognition will be worth much more in terms of future opportunities which will most likely flow if any growing value comes from your work.
As an example, the bulk of work in academia in terms of intellectual activities is largely given away for free in terms of the publication of peer-reviewed articles. The publication and thus recognition of such articles thereafter lead more opportunities etc
You should never, ever, give any work away for free. Unless you're donating your time or talent to charity. Or, as a favour.
Ask yourself, would your friend give you his services for free? Or, for credit?
Giving things away for free devalues your skillset, as well as craft; it also sets a precedent.
Getting credit doesn't pay bills; money does.
I know it's hard because it's a friend involved. And, money can ruin friendships. It might be easier to decline.
This is an endemic problem nowadays in the professional photography world. People don't know how to price, and copy everyone else, or, worse, undercut.
If you are serious about making some cash, I would get in touch with someone from the AIPP or ACMP.
I can point you in the right direction with regards to the AIPP.
Have to agree with H on this one. Having had a number of my early motorsports shots ripped off it pays to get it on a business footing from the start, friend or no friend.
If the business takes off there may be ongoing requirements and the friend has to regard any purchase of photos or of any other resource as am investment in THEIR buisness.
Charge a nominal amount if you wish but get some reward back for your input. As you say you are looking ahead also to future possibilities and you would be a poor business person if you did not get a return on your own work.
$50 (eg) is not much regardless and it keeps it on a professional relationship outside the friendship. No one can then say later they were ripped off. Your friend would probably feel happier giving you some return anyway.
I sold a news photo to Channel 7 and was paid $15,000 for it, On condition that it was their exclusive. It was used in a channel 7 documentary back in 1998.
You should never, ever, give any work away for free. Unless you're donating your time or talent to charity. Or, as a favour.
Ask yourself, would your friend give you his services for free? Or, for credit?
Giving things away for free devalues your skillset, as well as craft; it also sets a precedent.
Getting credit doesn't pay bills; money does.
I know it's hard because it's a friend involved. And, money can ruin friendships. It might be easier to decline.
This is an endemic problem nowadays in the professional photography world. People don't know how to price, and copy everyone else, or, worse, undercut.
If you are serious about making some cash, I would get in touch with someone from the AIPP or ACMP.
I can point you in the right direction with regards to the AIPP.
H
This holds true on the assumption that one possess an established recognised skill set that objectively is considered to have value
But, how many of your friends would offer multi-thousand dollar services for free as a favour?
For some reason, photography, music and the arts, are fair game when it comes to getting stuff for free.
I doubt any lawyers, plumbers, electricians, or other professionals would work for free or for credit.
Anyway, this is something I feel strongly about. Just trying to protect Chris' interests -- he is a friend.
H
Problem with these arguments is that you are referring to highly regulated professions requiring certified training regimes for initial qualification followed by continuing education regulations not to mention mandatory insurance regulations for malpractice etc
A law degree is a 6 year full time study course followed by CPD. Plumbers are 6 years from Tafe and Doctors are 10 years for basic training followed by another 4 years for any specialisation. All of this is independent of any "skill" level people subsequently acquire from "years of experience" in practice of their trade/profession.
I am not sure there is any regulatory authority governing (with legal powers) people who take Astro Photos and herein really is the issue. If you can get some dosh great but I suspect your long term interwsts and potential would be maximised by first establishing a reputation for yourself.
My suggestion is, make it clear that you retain copyright of your image, and if your image is not the whole artwork then negotiate a percentage, a royalty, if you will with your friend which represents your share of the collaborative artwork. If you friend is doing promotions and other stuff to make it fly, take that into account in the negotiations. If you are friends try to make it work for the best of both of you.
That way, you maintain copyright of the image and can still use it elsewhere, and the share of any profits is agreed up front as equitable. If's a $5 flop, have a laugh... if it makes millions, you can both snigger contentedly.
Some sage advice from everyone and I thank you for your input.
Firstly, this is not something that I expect WILL sell squillions, but as has been said, IF I don't ask, then I don't get and formalising some sort of agreement and payment up front makes it easier later if demand increases.
One important point is this, my friend is an old work colleague and it was actually his idea to ask me for the use of one of my photos for his product and offered image author credit on his work. I then asked if he meant credit as in a fee to use and he said that he would be happy to pay for it as he appreciates the time and effort and money that goes into the astrophotography investment most of us have.
So, we discussed, quite openly, that neither of us really had any idea of how much to charge or offer for, lets be honest, a REASONABLE astro pic i took of The Sombero Galaxy which he liked......yes, there are MUCH better ones out there, but it was nice he asked me specifically for the use of mine, rather than just rip it off without my knowledge or simply buy a stock version elsewhere, which I am sure he could do without much trouble.
Apart from the childhood fantasy of having a pic of yours shown on an international product website and somehow, by the inclusion of my pic, his product gets more notice and he sells more product, to the point of making him money, then yes, I would quite like this scenario, BUT I don't know how charitable I would feel if he got rich off it and I was left holding my "warm and fuzzy" feelings while he lived the high life as a result.
I am not saying my humble photo would be the catalyst to his outstanding success, because ultimately it is simply window dressing on his product, which HE has created himself, so therefore, my contribution is minor in the overall scheme of things.
Anyway, I have offered him the USE of the pic for a fee, with the understanding that the image credit bears my name and copyright 2014 in all reproductions of his work.
Based on the yet to be established professional astrophotography reputation of mine , I think anything reasonable is better than nothing. I am yet to have a response to my offer, but if nothing comes of it, or conversely, his works sell their pants off, then at least it is a start. I don't have the time or the inclination right now to formalise a business or contractual paperwork to pursue this formally in order to protect my image rights or enforce profit sharing or fees for use other than this simple agreement for now.
So, at this stage, I will see what he says to my offer and see what happens next. I like Al's and Doppler's ideas of a percentage cut of the profits or sales, I just don't know how possible it would be to track this, as the product is being sold online and I have no real visibility on the numbers sold etc....but I will mention it to him if he baulks at paying the fee or goes cold on the idea. As I said, he is a casual previous work friend with whom I infrequently chat to online, so it's not a biggie if it all goes south somehow, it is not my primary source of income but would be nice to have some gravy in order to complement my growing astro equipment collection
Thanks again for everyone's input and to H for looking out for me the way you have, I sort of knew you would chime in on this topic the way you did, good to see the fire there is still burning strong
, I think anything reasonable is better than nothing. I am yet to have a response to my offer, but if nothing comes of it, or conversely, his works sell their pants off, then at least it is a start. I don't have the time or the inclination right now to formalise a business or contractual paperwork to pursue this formally in order to protect my image rights or enforce profit sharing or fees for use other than this simple agreement for now.
