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Old 18-10-2007, 05:28 PM
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Hutech 40D .. few questions..

Hi Guys,

I'm leaning towards getting myself a Hutech 40D. Since the original canon filter has been replaced, does that mean the sensor cleaning will not work?

With the new live view function, anyone know how good it is to focus?

Comparing a Hutech 300d, 350d, 400d, 20d etc, where does the 40D stand in regards to noise and pixel size etc?

Ive been using DSLR Focus to capture and focus my images along with the Shoestring shutter control DSUSB, it seems it doesnt support the 40d or i need to modify the cable etc? is there an alternate solution to this?

On another note, since Hutech 40D is modified, I have seen other modified cameras trying to capture terrestial shots, it isn't the same even with filters and correct colour balancing, it just doesn't cut. Is there anyway which can make it exact with some sort of filter?

THanks, i really need some of these questions answered before deciding.
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Old 18-10-2007, 05:44 PM
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There are filters listed for Hutech modified cameras for daylight use but they're not cheap.

Lens-mounted Filters for Hutech/Canon Enhanced Cameras VLC-58 Daylight Filter - 58mm $199.00 VLC-67 Daylight Filter - 67mm $205.00 VLC-77 Daylight Filter - 77mm $229.00
* 10% off for Hutech camera owners.

Specify the serial # at the time of order.
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Old 18-10-2007, 05:47 PM
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Thanks Phil, but will this be identical to a normal unmodified 40d?
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Old 18-10-2007, 08:54 PM
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Hutech claims the VLC filters have the same spectral characteristics as the stock Canon hot mirror. The price isn't really that bad, it is about the same as a quality circular polarizer.
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Old 18-10-2007, 09:03 PM
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I would wait.
This was posted on the CCD-NEWASTRO Yahoo Group:
Cause for hesitation at least.

Turbo

-----Original Message-----
From: ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ccd-newastro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Perry (californiastars)
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2007 11:23 AM
To: digital_astro@yahoogroups.com; Canon_DSLR_Digital_Astro@yahoogroup s.com;
Yahoo - CCD New Astronomy
Subject: [ccd-newastro] Hutech Canon 40D - horizontal banding problem

Hi all,

I have a new Canon 40D that was modified by Hutech. In my first outing with it, I've noticed a rather severe horizontal banding problem. This isn't the "dark river" issue seen in many 20Ds. It's inconsistent banding throughout the image that seems to bleed some color along the bands. By "inconsistent"
I mean that the degree to which it's visible varies throughout the image; it's not uniform throughout the image but it IS present to some degree in the entire image and the same pattern is present in every image I took over the weekend.

I had a Hutech modified 20D for about 2 years and never saw a banding issue anywhere near as severe as this one. In fact, I went through some of my old images and majorly compressed the histograms and cannot see any banding issues even remotely similar to what I'm seeing in the 40D. I've provided some of those images for comparison purposes.

The images were taken at ISO 400 at an ambient temperature of about 60F. I took and applied 17 dark frames, 30 bias frames at 1/8000th of a second each, and flat frames at 1/15th of a second. The raw images exhibit the banding but it's not quite as apparent in a single raw image (but the same patterns are clearly present). My curve adjustments in these "processed"
images weren't all that aggressive. The camera was powered with the Canon AC adapter, the same one I used on my 20D. There's also a gradient in every image from upper left to lower right but I'm less concerned about that.

Here are the images I just took with the 40D. These were processed using IP's (v3 beta 9) automatic image set processing, saved to TIFF, then I adjusted the curves in Photoshop. That's the only processing applied to
these:


http://www.californiastars.net/galle...c2239.proc.jpg
http://www.californiastars.net/galle...c2177.proc.jpg
http://www.californiastars.net/galle...c1499.proc.jpg
http://www.californiastars.net/galle...gc1499.raw.jpg

The last one is a single 5 minute exposure with no darks, flats, or bias frames applied, just some curve adjustments.

And here are some images from my 20D with the levels massively compressed.
There are clearly some issues in these images but it's mostly uniform noise, which doesn't even appear problematic until the levels are compressed way beyond any normal processing parameters as I've done here. When processed with normal settings, nothing in the way of banding is even remotely detectable. The M51 images has the most noticeable features that might be referred to as "banding" but they're invisible when the image is processed normally, unlike the 40D images:

http://www.californiastars.net/galle...sed.ic1318.jpg
http://www.californiastars.net/galle...essed.m042.jpg
http://www.californiastars.net/galle...essed.b033.jpg
http://www.californiastars.net/galle...essed.m051.jpg

The only possible contributors I can think of, other than electronic issues within the camera itself, are external electrical noise, improper shielding of a cable near the camera or its USB cable, or something along those lines.
I'm going to run some tests using just a battery, a dedicated USB connection from the camera to the laptop (no hubs), and at different ISOs.

Hutech's response thus far has been that it's pretty normal, software can probably process it out, and to seek support in the Yahoo groups. I find that unacceptable seeing how this is not easily processed out and will prevent me from getting images even close to the quality I had with the 20D.
Unless I find an external culprit, this camera is going to either be exchanged or returned.

If anyone has any insights or suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them.

Thanks,
Daniel Perry
http://www.californiastars.net/
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Old 19-10-2007, 01:09 AM
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thanks for that you just saved me!! phew. gee's im surprised with the banding involved especially from a well known modifier. Is this happening with all their 40d's or just from one user?
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Old 19-10-2007, 02:00 AM
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i have an unmodified 350D witht that same problem from new, it's pretty bad, ya think your going mad at first lol - I feel for him, i really do
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Old 19-10-2007, 06:35 AM
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Why didn't you take the 350D back under warranty Kearn??
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Old 19-10-2007, 08:08 AM
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Eric that cooled 400D is looking better all the time!!
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Old 19-10-2007, 08:09 AM
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Hi Eric...What I have read about the 40D it sounds like a great astro camera.
Having 14bit color instead of 12bit for the older models as well as the live focus. I have heard the live focus works ok on bright stars but not much good on anything fainter than 5-6 mag (depending on your scope)?

Not sure on the noise levels but I think they are good at the slower iso settings and maybe a tad higher at the faster isos than the 20D.
You also have no amp glow to worry about.


There is a filter called the x-nite CC1 filter that has a very close transmission curves to the older canon internal filters which should work perfectly for daytime shooting with a modded camera..I am not sure how well this would work with the 40D but as I have no idea of what the transmission of its internal filter? but would be very close I say..

Don`t understand the banding but? that should have nothing to do with filter modification or removal..could be the external power supply that this chap was using or a fault with the camera? I don`t think that the sensor cleaning would be active after the mod either?

But all in all I would love to upgrade to this camera myself...
Sorry I`m not much more help...
cheers Gary
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Old 19-10-2007, 08:10 AM
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yeah Eric why not get the cooled 400D!
What a cool idea!!!

Why not get a cooled modded 40D
what a camera that would make!!
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Old 19-10-2007, 12:29 PM
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umm ..ermmm .. i'm embarrassed to say it Phil , i didnt use it astronomically until the warranty was over .. i was still mainly into film for astro work, other than quick twilight snaps, so is my fault to a degree,
here's an example of it, funny but the longer the exposure, the less trouble it is!? in fact you dont even notice it really, but anything up to and around 30 secs is really bad!
here's an example, ive exaggerated it and converted to grayscale to show it clearly
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Old 19-10-2007, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EzyStyles View Post
With the new live view function, anyone know how good it is to focus?
Hi Eric,
Live view makes it a breeze to focus on bright stars/ planets through the scope.
I used Jupiter to focus the ED80 2 nights ago using the 10x zoom capability.
Planet was focused to a clean sharp disc with 4 moons easily resolved (one very close to limb was resolved as separate point too). Similar story with bright stars, very easy to find best focus. Don't expect to be able to see bright DSOs though!
I have also found it difficult to focus on stars with the 17-85mm kit lens. There seems to be a limiting magnitude issue. Perhaps that wouldn't be an issue in say a 200mm lens

Live view can be accessed on the laptop using the EOS utility software and EF lenses can be focused through the software.
The EOS Utility software also allows you to set up the camera functions remotely. Very easy to setup a 20 x 2min exps for example then walk away!!!

The banding in the examples above are horrendous - nothing like that on my unmodded 40D thankfully. I have however noticed a "dark river" towards the bottom of the frame in some exps - but this vanishes after setting the black point - so no dramas.
Hope some of this helps Eric
All the best
Doug
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Old 19-10-2007, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
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The EOS Utility software also allows you to set up the camera functions remotely. Very easy to setup a 20 x 2min exps for example then walk away!!!
Is the focusing via the PC capable enough for astronomy work? Is it able to focus at fine enough increments?
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Old 19-10-2007, 02:56 PM
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Is the focusing via the PC capable enough for astronomy work? Is it able to focus at fine enough increments?
Hi Roger,
Haven't used the PC to focus the camera for astro work.
I have used it to test the setup in daylight and it works well with the EF lens.
There are 6 focus buttons in the Live View window corresponding to increments in focus speed like this...

<<< << < > >> >>>

Cheers
Doug
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Old 19-10-2007, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fringe_dweller View Post
umm ..ermmm .. i'm embarrassed to say it Phil , i didnt use it astronomically until the warranty was over .. i was still mainly into film for astro work, other than quick twilight snaps, so is my fault to a degree,
here's an example of it, funny but the longer the exposure, the less trouble it is!? in fact you dont even notice it really, but anything up to and around 30 secs is really bad!
here's an example, ive exaggerated it and converted to grayscale to show it clearly
Guys, I think you are simply over-processing your pictures, IMHO...
I have the same thing with my (unmodified) 400D, when the hystogram is stretched such that the readout noise becomes visible. This is quite normal, actually. There is no such thing as noiseless sensor, or noiseless amplifier.
Longer exposure cures that "problem" nicely.... Lowering sensor temperature (or the temperature of the whole camera) will also help a lot. Stacking (in DSS, for example) also dramatically reduces this effect because the noise is averaged, and the signal is left as is.
The best idea is to use the whole dynamic range of the sensor and amplifier, not just the range of signal levels close to the noise floor. That means, lower ISO settings (this lowers the noise) and exposure duration such that the only the brightest parts, which are not needed or wanted, are saturated. In astro-photography this is of course tricky because the dynamic range of the subject is huge.. but it all depends what we want to show on the final photo.
The analogous principle applies to film photography as well, the only difference is that the noise here is of different nature (it appears more random because there is no read-out noise which in electronic cameras is not random but rather in sync with the readout process, line by line and pixel by pixel. Also we have grains here which are analogous to pixelization in digital pictures). Also, in the chemical photographic process it is not as easy to stretch the histogram that much (it can be done by using high contrast paper).

Last edited by bojan; 19-10-2007 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 20-10-2007, 04:28 AM
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Hi bojan, nah mate, I can see the banding without/before doing any processing, for most of the ISO's, it stands out way more than it should normally, and like that guy the only thing that helps is NR software, but then you lose elsewhere. I have been told of a possible way to fix this using IRIS, but havent got around to trying it.
Film was great, i only needed to use one program no brainer - beaut pics
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Old 20-10-2007, 06:30 AM
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Hmmmm
In that case you may have been un-lucky one.. If this is happening at all ISO settings, probably something is not right around ADC - it is noisy, judging from the pic you attached... If this vertical pattern is always there and repeats itself from image to image (not random, that is), stacking may help here provided the individual images are offset slightly or rotated, which will effectively randomize this noise (caused by processor?).
Yes, film was great (still is)... but wet :-(
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Old 20-10-2007, 07:53 PM
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from my experience with the hutech modified 350D:

for terestrial photography -

you can get allmost identical color reproduction to a non-modified camera with some experiance with color tone adjustments in adobe camera raw, basicly no one will be able to tell if your photo is through a modified or non-modified

the main drawbacks are in some situations, more time processing your photographs for color balance and color tone reproduction

you will experience Moire' in selected synthetic subjects such as heavy continuious patterned objects - buildings etc since the anti-atlasing filter is removed - but you will allso experience dramatically sharper photographs due to this, so its a bit of a trade off.

ive some pretty awsome terestrial shots through my hutech modified 350D, they would have been identicial through my 30D - accept differences in processing the photograph, with the hutech 350D alot less sharpening.

it kinda changes the feel of the photographs abit, its kinda simular to how film photography works, and how different films give different looks, its just barely different though - but you can still reproduce identically with color tone adjustments.

Last edited by Adrian-H; 21-10-2007 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 23-10-2007, 04:20 PM
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cheers guys. thanks for all your feedback . I think i have made up my mind and stick with the Hutech 40D. The banding issue only happen with one particular user which im sure will be still under warranty from Hutech.

WOOHOOO!! HUTECH 40D here i come! I know houghy, the Cooled DSLR will be a better choice, but even so, the Hutech 40D is still cheaper than the Cooled DSLR, it is a higher model with live vieww

once again, thanks for all your input !
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