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  #21  
Old 27-05-2018, 11:38 AM
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OneCosmos (Chris)
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Thanks for your thoughts everyone, it has been interesting to read people's experiences.


Here's my threepence worth. If you want to do predominantly imaging, whilst at the high end ($$$$) there are very good alternatives such as RC scopes, even on a modest budget it is possible today to acquire really high quality raw data (that of course nobody bothers to process ) using relatively affordable, but necessarily 'small' refractors. Many have chosen this path with great success and I'm not knocking it. After all, we only do astronomy because we enjoy it and how you achieve that is up to you.


As mentioned in my initial post though yes my APM 152mm yielded what I think is a superior view of Saturn than the 16" SDM, if visual is your thing it is a great deal of money to spend for superior view of just 4 objects, the moon Saturn, Jupiter and Mars. Mind you, that makes it three times more useful than a solar scope .


My APM 152mm today would set up back just over AU $14k for the OTA and rings (and for half a million dollars APM will make you a 20" APO) but for that kind of money you could have a 20" skywatcher dob or a slightly smaller elite-maker dob, like Obsession or SDM. I reckon it would be worth sacrificing the views of the bright solar system objects to open the door to the entire Messier and NGC catalogues. In short, an APO refractor is worth it for imaging but is poor value for money when it comes to visual - and that's coming from someone who loves refractors!


I would therefore be recommending a beginner who wants to start with visual at least to buy a dob. A small refractor will prove disappointing and may fail to inspire.


Chris
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Old 27-05-2018, 07:53 PM
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I love my 4" refractor for doing things that my Mewlon 250 won't do and that is short visual sessions and views of the planets/moon in bad seeing conditions.

The Mewlon will make it easier to see the detail than the 4" refractor under poor seeing conditions but it won't show anything new and it is a whole lot of extra scope to have to deal with
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Old 27-05-2018, 09:10 PM
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Some of you may have spotted that I advertised my imaging setup looking for EOI (which I don't frankly expect to find given the price tag) but I did receive an interesting response from my astro good friend Greg bok - I'm sure many of you know him too. His comment basically was that it was an unusual change of direction from imaging to visual when typically it is the other way round.



I started writing a response that actually became more involved than I expected and thought it would be worth presenting here for comment, (slightly edited Greg only to make it read a little better). This is what I wrote:


Thanks. Yes, it is interesting isn't it? I can, however answer the question I think, but whether the answer will be satisfying for you or not I can't say but I think it would be a fascinating topic to debate on IIS as I reckon it would resonate with some. I have witnessed the balance between imaging and visual shift dramatically but do wonder if it might prove to be somewhat cyclical and we may yet see a return to more of a balance at the QLD Astrofest in due course. Let me explain my reasoning.


Firstly, context matters. I have been involved and interested in astronomy since I was 14 years old when I got my first telescope - a rubbish second-hand 60mm Tasco refractor. Whilst I enjoyed looking through it to see if I could find things it wasn't the reason to be interested. I can, however certainly remember the pleasure at finding M27 - my first nebula (no GoTo of course) and was very excited even though it looked pitiful - and even I thought so at the time. The telescope was simply secondary to my enjoyment which was all about observing and knowing the night sky. The first time I ever Saturn rise over the houses at what seemed to me like such a sacred hour, 01:00 I remember well (I was only 14 and it was unusual to be out on your own at that time of night) but I was mesmerised, not so much what it looked like (just a bright star), but because I knew what it was - another world we're still pre-voyager at this time. I was awestruck by its implications. A year later and Cosmos aired for the first time and who wasn't inspired by Carl Sagan's spaceship of the imagination?

The telescopes and mounts we use today were still far off in to the future although Celestron brought out their iconic orange tubes, so polished and exotic compared to what was available in the UK at the time and, but these at least did give a hint of what was to come.

I then had a long gap of not really doing any astronomy through my early 20s as I was busy with life and working overseas, music, traveling etc. It was many years later I returned to astronomy by which time real equipment was available to the amateur at prices normal people could afford. I was always drawn to refractors and thus bought the best available to me at the time an APM 130mm. I enjoyed it but started down the path of imaging and to cut a long story short ended up changing that for what I have now, the APM 152mm, a scope designed from the ground up with imaging in mind.

When I arrived in Australia in 2009 I didn't bring any gear with me at all as we expected to be 'back home' within 2 years. After 4 years, with permanent residence status secured I finally brought out the 152mm and the set upon the extremely expensive and not a little bit frustrating project to transform it in to the consummate imaging platform it is today, all housed in a splendid observatory.

Buying better and better equipment becomes a drug, imaging becomes an end in itself - and there is nothing wrong with that really. It can, however be fairly obsessive and really quite divorced from astronomy as we all sit freezing in our computer tents at Astrofest destroying our dark adaption (that never happened) by looking at computer screens. It becomes a technical exercise with so many obstacles to overcome and such issues become the reason to be there rather than enjoying the night sky, but we push on, determined to prove all the money was worth spending. Meanwhile the heavens majestically rotate with too few noticing.


I was acutely aware on many occasions at Astrofest (and I have never missed one) that by and large there was a separation between the imagers and the visual field. It wasn't that people were unfriendly at all rather that the imagers largely thought nothing of the visual field at all- it was totally irrelevant! Many people actually never once stepped foot on it to look through a single scope despite some really quite fantastic instruments being present. The visual guys for their part looked down to some degree on the imagers mostly as non-astronomers who would not bother to go and look at the stars if you took away their computers - and I think there is some truth to that - without being judgemental about it.

I always straddled both worlds, spending much of my time on the imaging field and enjoying the camaraderie there but also making regular trips to the visual field. It was not only to look through different telescopes but also to talk about astronomy rather than equipment. Not science necessarily but talking to people who knew and loved the sky and could talk with passion about views they'd had of different objects. BTW the visual guys have their own toys too - but it is mostly eyepieces - most of which are ridiculously expensive of course. In 2009 the ratio of imagers to visual was about 50/50 but over the years the visual field has dwindled, as you say as more and more people have migrated to imaging.

The reasons for that are, as you pointed out that the camera sees far more and perhaps too, as people get older their eyesight worsens reducing the enjoyment at the scope perhaps. There is of course something satisfying about producing an image that you can show other people but of course the image looks not only like everyone else's image of the same thing (yet another M17) but it looks the same the M17 you took yourself last year and the year before and the year before that too and that's assuing you even bother to process the raw data in the end.Then again, my wife would say the same about visual as well - "you're going to look at M17 again?"


So that expansive exposition is the context. Finally, I will address your question more explcitly. Of course the eye can see nothing compared to the camera - colour is notably absent in every single telescope I have ever looked through, irrespective of size. BUT, and here's thing looking through a telescope has an emotional and psychological impact too. I can remember incredible views through the telescope as individual events, there is just something different and special about seeing an object with your own eyes (and brains) through the eyepiece. Images are spectacular and can be inspiring but they look the same as any we can download from the Internet, thus they lack uniqueness. It is also worth noting that apart from the absence of colour something like Eta carina or the Veil nebule with say the 31mm Nagler and an Oiii filter is every bit as magnificent to the eye through as very large dob as an image.


I do think that people may eventually return to the enjoyment that can be gained from visual astronomy because Skywatcher are now doing for visual what they did for imaging, namely making telescopes worth looking through - i.e. big telescopes available at sensible prices. I would really like to see Astrofest inspire people to do some visual astronomy because ultimately it is an astronomy event and not a computer week where the sky happens to be the subject.

The other night I spent two hours in the observatory mucking around with the EQ8 because it was one of those nights when it didn't play ball and then did a bit of imaging. I walked out of the observatory and within 3 minutes the SDM 16" I now have (and I want a 28" f3.3) was fully aligned and tracking and objects appeared in the centre of a 200x eyepiece evey time - the simplicty and beauty of the instrument together with such wonderful presentation of the heavens is addictive for me.

I invite all attendees of the QLD Astrofest this year to join me on the visual field, away from the computer screens, become dark adapted and take advantage of some of the amazing large telescopes available. You might be pleasantly surprised. Don't compare the eyepiece view with what the camera sees but appreciate the eyepiece view on a more personal level.


Chris

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  #24  
Old 27-05-2018, 09:43 PM
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What's an eyepiece?

Oh yeah I remember now. My best views of planets were from custom built long F/L Newtonians. Big long things where you needed a ladder even for an 8". Sadly I sold my 8" F8.8. I've always wanted to make an F10 10", but deep sky astrophotography got the better of me. My 16" F5.4 gave very good planet views also, but I don't have a 6" APO to compare.
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Old 27-05-2018, 09:48 PM
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Thanks for that Chris, a very enjoyable read. As a purely visual chap myself you've given me the bug to attend astrofest and overcome my hatred of camping.
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  #26  
Old 27-05-2018, 10:00 PM
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my two cents worth...

Hi Chris...OK, so to extend your thoughts above, here's my response below...BTW, why stop at a 28" scope????
========
great answer, i know where you are coming from, i can identify very closely wih your comments about the frustrations of imaging.
Like you, i started with a 50mm refractor, a Tasco 6TE in 1971 and never looked back. Finding Saturn by myself at 11 years old from star charts and plotted positions set me up for life despite the light polluted Melbourne skies I grew up in.

I realised years ago that i had to do more than look thru a scope so i started taking colour images with film which produced tantalising images revealing more than i could optically see, but fraught with all sorts of issues. Then along comes digital imaging and all the issues became bigger and more complex, but the results were worth it. They still are, but i can't just image either, which i why i search for SNe..that's where i get the most satisfaction despite hundreds of hours between discoveries. This also give sme the opportunity to work with professionals around the world who appreciate the efforts of part-timers like me so i get to contribute to the broader astro-community.

The Leyburn weekends are a mixture of a social event with Peter and Pat in the observatory and imaging the sky in colour where we can step outside and let the dark sky remind us of the wonder of the universe surrounding us, accompanied of course with some cheese and Port! Bliss..

So, yes, i have straddled both worlds and still enjoy both although i dont actually look thru a scope much anymore. Enjoy your 16" and good luck obtaining the 28", I'm sure it will be worth for you.
Keep in touch.
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Old 27-05-2018, 10:24 PM
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I’d like to think that I straddle that line quite well in that once my imaging rig is setup I don’t really touch it. I might check it periodically just to make sure that a program or driver hasn’t crashed somewhere along the line (happened a few nights ago at 4:46am, I found out at 7:30 when I woke up!) but the rest of it I don’t mind doing visual. Up at Coolah a few months ago I spent as much of those dark skies imaging as I could but I spent most of my physical time looking through my Mewlon 250 or the other telescopes in the field.

My only official Astro camp that I’ve attended was Snake Valley once and that was the year of the great flood, mostly imagers there that year. I spent most of my time chatting with others than watching my gear as it just did it’s own thing. I had to refocus periodically but other than that it just did it’s own thing.

I hear you about the imaging frustrations, there were nights with my EQ6 that it would have been best just not even going out. As much as I I’ve enjoyed my EQ6 and it has served me well, my DDM60 is hands down my best Astro investment. I’ve learned that if I find myself saying “it’s close enough” when setting up, it probably isn’t so I should go and refine the settings. My EQ6, along with all the other Sky Watcher/Celestron ect follow the “close enough” mantra to keep to a price point and that’s where the GREMLINS live

Friday night I spent a few hours viewing with my Mewlon 250 riding the EQ6 (just tracking, no go-to) while my imaging setup was 3m away doing its own thing. Best of both worlds
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Old 28-05-2018, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cometcatcher View Post
What's an eyepiece?

Oh yeah I remember now. My best views of planets were from custom built long F/L Newtonians. Big long things where you needed a ladder even for an 8". Sadly I sold my 8" F8.8. I've always wanted to make an F10 10", but deep sky astrophotography got the better of me. My 16" F5.4 gave very good planet views also, but I don't have a 6" APO to compare.
There are some dedicated planetary Newtonians - slower with tiny secondaries but most are fast rich field systems better at DSO’s
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Old 28-05-2018, 06:53 AM
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I’d like to think that I straddle that line quite well in that once my imaging rig is setup I don’t really touch it. I might check it periodically just to make sure that a program or driver hasn’t crashed somewhere along the line (happened a few nights ago at 4:46am, I found out at 7:30 when I woke up!) but the rest of it I don’t mind doing visual. Up at Coolah a few months ago I spent as much of those dark skies imaging as I could but I spent most of my physical time looking through my Mewlon 250 or the other telescopes in the field.

My only official Astro camp that I’ve attended was Snake Valley once and that was the year of the great flood, mostly imagers there that year. I spent most of my time chatting with others than watching my gear as it just did it’s own thing. I had to refocus periodically but other than that it just did it’s own thing.

I hear you about the imaging frustrations, there were nights with my EQ6 that it would have been best just not even going out. As much as I I’ve enjoyed my EQ6 and it has served me well, my DDM60 is hands down my best Astro investment. I’ve learned that if I find myself saying “it’s close enough” when setting up, it probably isn’t so I should go and refine the settings. My EQ6, along with all the other Sky Watcher/Celestron ect follow the “close enough” mantra to keep to a price point and that’s where the GREMLINS live

Friday night I spent a few hours viewing with my Mewlon 250 riding the EQ6 (just tracking, no go-to) while my imaging setup was 3m away doing its own thing. Best of both worlds
I do certainly understand that imaging today can be so automated it leaves you with time for visual. My own system is totally automated actually -even down to 100% reliable re-focusing every x minutes/frames. It will auto meridian flip and I can actually go to bed whilst it does it’s thing. My real problem is that personally I enjoy the capture process mainly because it is just so damned impressive that is is so damned easy. My raw data is good but it rarely gets turned into good images for various reasons but even if they do they don’t look different to what I and others have already done. There are exceptions as Rick Stevenson and some others have shown us what is really possible. The point of the threD is because I think visual needs a champion to change mind sets because it answers a personal need to be connected. Learning about trees isn’t the same experience as going for a walk in the forest!
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Old 28-05-2018, 06:58 AM
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[QUOTE=Greg Bock;1376204]Hi Chris...OK, so to extend your thoughts above, here's my response below...BTW, why stop at a 28" scope????
========

Simple, a 32” SDM equipped with Lockwood f3.3 mirror would probably cost $60k which is more than I have spent on astronomy in total and certainly a lot more than I could sell it for now. There are a few used 20” SDMs around
but you don’t see bigger ones for sale -I suppose people don’t buy those to sell them.
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Old 28-05-2018, 09:57 AM
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Hi Chris and others!

An interesting thread, and one where everyone has an opinion, but not necessarily the same as anyone else...

I have a basic imaging setup, but have rarely used it- and one reason is the constant frustrations expressed by my imaging colleagues whenever I go to an astronomy camp! There seems to be a big learning curve; and I don't always feel I have the energy to tackle it!

Because my day job is teaching basic astronomy to school children (mainly with my planetarium dome) my observing time needs to be simple and enjoyable or I will be in danger of burning out from the hobby altogether: so I tend to be a visual astronomer only.

So, to get back to your initial comments, I get the most enjoyment from using my 4" APO (a Tak TSA 102), and I even return to it happily after viewing through a nearby 24" or 18" SDM scope (with very nice Zambuto mirrors). With planetary viewing the 4" is no slouch. It can't beat physics, and there is no doubt that on a good night the big scopes get better resolution of detail and colour; but the other night on Jupiter I could see detail and colour variation within the GRS, and at least 8 bands around the planet, as well as colour and size differences in the moons. Plus no spikes, just lovely sharp edges.

With DSO's, again you can't beat physics, but I have seen detail within the homunculus nebula and an enormous number of DSO's with the little 4".
My ideal is looking at an object through (preferably!) the 24" or my own 12" dob, and then seeing how much of the same detail I can see in the 4"- and I can usually see a surprising amount!

Because I have astigmatism, I have lived all my life with slightly fuzzy views of the world (without my glasses), so for me there is something magical about the sharp stars I can see in the refractor. For me this magic beats the spikes of a reflector: but there is certainly room for both... (and any time someone wants to give me a 6" APO... )

Happy viewing (and imaging!) all,

Dean

Last edited by SkyWatch; 28-05-2018 at 03:12 PM.
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  #32  
Old 28-05-2018, 09:46 PM
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There are some dedicated planetary Newtonians - slower with tiny secondaries but most are fast rich field systems better at DSO’s
That's why I made my own. Cheaper than an APO, but cool down time is still a major drawback with these long newts. Perhaps even worse as the tubes are so long.
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