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Old 12-07-2020, 02:45 PM
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Which mount: the AZ-EQ6 or Losmandy GM811...

Dear readers,

You’ve probably seen my recent posts about upgrading my LXD75. With an NP127is, my current use is visual but I am planning to get into AP - so after much thought have narrowed it down to 2 choices - quite different from each other:

A) Skywatcher AZ-EQ6 (about $2,900). I had a good look at one just this weekend. I no longer worry that the 15kg head is too heavy, sure, it's on the heavier side, but I didn’t find it overly difficult to lift and assemble. The AZ-EQ6 has a great solidity, I love that it has AZ capability, and the large screw-bolt altitude adjustment is fantastically smooth. Drawbacks: the azimuth adjustment is so damn crude !!!, actually no better than my LXD75 - subsequently, the head can ‘shift’ when tightening after azimuth adjustment. Also, we are beginning to see reports about backlash in EQ-6 belt drives now that these mounts have been around for a while. This is where its “entry-level quality” begins to show.

B) Losmandy GM811 (about $6,300). Ok, the more I read about AP, experienced photographers stress that the mount is so important. The next level up is something like the Losmandy; the GM811 is the obvious candidate. Beautifully machined, high precision, engineering and geometry, very solid and gorgeous finish. I love the multiple bubble levels, and precision adjustments in altitude and azimuth show no play when tightening. Drawbacks: Gemini 2 does scare me a bit, it does look fussy and has its learning curve.

OK, I know that both mounts will do the job; the Losmandy is simply at the next higher tier and price point. Let’s be honest, I’ve got NO (zilch!) experience in AP right now - so would the Losmandy just be a risky waste of money for a novice like me ??? I still have to learn about cameras, guiding, filters, precision alignment, software programs, and all the image processing - there is the choice of which camera, buy a guidescope, maybe a Pole Master - which will add several $$ hundred more.

Is it more sensible of me to ‘cut my teeth’ on the more entry level AZ-EQ6 with EQMOD and PHD2 etc. - am I right in saying that the large majority of highly capable imagers are using Chinese EQ-6 level mounts, with laptops and autoguiding. I can always get a GM811 later on, and I dare say appreciate a Losmandy more after I ‘learn the chops’ to do it justice…

thanks
Fox

Last edited by Fox; 12-07-2020 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 12-07-2020, 05:16 PM
sunslayr (David)
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I might be a bit biased having only used the AZ-EQ6, but its probably the one I would go for. Yes, its not perfect but its really unbeatable in terms of value, and when you want to do visual, the AZ mode Is a real treat. As for the backlash that seems like you could just adjust that as the mount ages by replacing the belts and doing a bit of hypertune.
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Old 12-07-2020, 05:38 PM
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Thanks David, do you image with your AZ-EQ6? If so, what scope, camera and guidescope do you use?
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Old 12-07-2020, 06:32 PM
Startrek (Martin)
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I have two EQ6-R mounts both used for AP in different locations , Sydney and South Coast
The south coast mount is nearly 2 years old , the Sydney mount ( has new USB port ) is 6 months old
Both of mine have minimal backlash and both track and guide really well via EQMOD and PHD2 ( my payload is 14.5kg )
The ones that have a bit of backlash can be rectified by adjusting the belt tension slightly ( simple procedure ) and ones that experience more than acceptable backlash can be rectified by adjusting worm gear and belt tension ( sometimes occurs after 2 years use )

Agreed the EQ6-R are low cost mass produced mounts and come out of the Synta factory with questionable quality control but they can be tuned to track and guide beautifully without too much pain
Any low cost mass produced mount including the AZ EQ6 can have backlash issues

My experience and my 2 cents ....
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Old 12-07-2020, 07:12 PM
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Thanks, and another +ve for the EQ-6! I think there's a ton to learn when starting out in AP, and it will be myself, not the AZ-EQ6, that will the rate-limiting factor at this point.
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Old 12-07-2020, 07:27 PM
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The_bluester (Paul)
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I will chime in with a negative for the AZEQ6 (I have the Orion version) when it comes to AP.

They are harder to balance than the normal EQ6 due to the design of the clutches. The weight of the payload is in part on the clutches so they don't release cleanly and drag. You can balance the Dec axis by rotating the RA until the counterweights are well above the RA axis, taking the weight off the DEC clutch and making it balance properly, but you can't do that to the RA axis.

As a visual mount it is a great thing having the altaz mode and visually I used mine like that all the time.
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Old 12-07-2020, 08:19 PM
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Hi Paul,

When playing with the AZ-EQ6, I did notice that balancing the Dec axis was easy, because the axis has very free 360 deg swivel when the clutch is released. But when releasing the RA clutch, the RA axis is on the stiffer side - however, I didn't think it was so bad to prevent you from reasonably positioning & balancing the shaft counterweights. It that what you are getting at ? I assume that the motors are quite strong to drive the mass and weight of the thing, and so 'pretty close' with the balance is good enough ?

Even with my conventional LXD75, the RA axis does have some stiffness (compared to the Dec axis), but I am confident I still get reasonable balance by "feeling" the clockwise/counterclockwise forces when positioning the counterweight.

Many thanks for your input, cheers, Fox
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Old 12-07-2020, 08:37 PM
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Was that playing with a bare mount? The more weight you put on them the more the clutches drag. In my case it is only about 8-9KG plus the counterweights but if you rotate it counterweights level to do the dec it can sit there while still well out of balance. Rotate the RA another 30 degrees or so and it can be that far off that suddenly it swings madly in Dec.

The RA is the same (Made potentially worse as you might need to remove the clutch tightening bolt to release the clutch more) but you cant tip the axis upside down to take the weight off it. I am thinking of getting a small set of bag scales to see if I can see a different in torque required to start the axis moving one way, then the other to help balance it that way.
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Old 12-07-2020, 08:54 PM
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traveller (Bo)
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What’s your budget Fox? One mount double the price of the other.
I have a CGX which I am quite happy with a step up from my old EQ6.
Bo
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:33 PM
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Hi Bo,

My ideal budget is around $3,000 to $4,000 for mounts around the EQ-6 size, I realise the NP127is is not a lightweight scope. As I began to look more and more into it, so much revolved around periodic error and total RMS, etc. So yeah, I was willing to push the budget into the $6K range if it meant a much better mount in the long run, and if I really started to get into AP very seriously.

There seem to be 3 tiers of mount, mass produced entry-level around $3K or so, middle tier such as Losmandy at $6K or so, then the top tier ~$12K for an AstroPhysics or 10Micron which can go unguided - I guess that's what they mean when the 'mount gets out of the way' - but you have to really pay for it!

I'll take another look at the Celestron mounts now that you mention it, thanks! Fox
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:34 PM
sunslayr (David)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Thanks David, do you image with your AZ-EQ6? If so, what scope, camera and guidescope do you use?
Yeah I image with it, I use an 8" F5 newt and 1600mm with filters and oag (~15kg) as well as an Esprit 100 F5.5 (~8kg). In regards to balancing, its not as smooth my neq6 so I just push it both ways like you suggested, I don't think its necessary to be perfectly balanced, at least at my focal length.
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Old 12-07-2020, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_bluester View Post
Was that playing with a bare mount? The more weight you put on them the more the clutches drag. In my case it is only about 8-9KG plus the counterweights but if you rotate it counterweights level to do the dec it can sit there while still well out of balance. Rotate the RA another 30 degrees or so and it can be that far off that suddenly it swings madly in Dec.

The RA is the same (Made potentially worse as you might need to remove the clutch tightening bolt to release the clutch more) but you cant tip the axis upside down to take the weight off it. I am thinking of getting a small set of bag scales to see if I can see a different in torque required to start the axis moving one way, then the other to help balance it that way.
Hi Paul, no it was not with the bare mount, I did in fact take my NP127is into the shop and try it on the Saxon AZ-EQ6 mount. I wanted to find out exactly how the mount felt with my scope. I didn’t sense the ‘sitting there, well out of balance’ picture, but then I only spent 20-30 min with the mount, and I don’t have the valuable experience you have. Many thanks for sharing this, Fox!
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Old 13-07-2020, 12:05 AM
Xeteth (David)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
My ideal budget is around $3,000 to $4,000 for mounts around the EQ-6 size, I realise the NP127is is not a lightweight scope. As I began to look more and more into it, so much revolved around periodic error and total RMS, etc. So yeah, I was willing to push the budget into the $6K range if it meant a much better mount in the long run, and if I really started to get into AP very seriously.

There seem to be 3 tiers of mount, mass produced entry-level around $3K or so, middle tier such as Losmandy at $6K or so, then the top tier ~$12K for an AstroPhysics or 10Micron which can go unguided - I guess that's what they mean when the 'mount gets out of the way' - but you have to really pay for it!

I'll take another look at the Celestron mounts now that you mention it, thanks! Fox
You could get an EQ8 for about the $6k mark if you are worried about payload capacity (up to 50kg on the EQ8), however they are a pretty heavy mount and not really built for portability or setting up/tearing down constantly.

Do you have any idea what the total weight of your payload will be? You will need to factor in scope, camera, guidescope and any other accessories you'll have on there.

The other thing to consider - all the costs add up pretty quick when getting into astrophotography. Obviously the mount, scope and camera are the big ones - but don't forget there's a heap of other stuff you might want/need such as guide scope, guide cam, dew heaters, flatbox, focal reducer, filters, filter wheel and certainly don't forget the software! I suggest thinking about what items you will need right off the bat and work out a total overall budget so you know exactly what you need to spend. I'm not trying to scare you away at all, it's all definitely worth it - but I was somewhat blindsided with how quick it can all add up.
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Old 13-07-2020, 09:25 AM
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The only thing I can’t comment on is how the clutches perform over time. I had my mount and had been using it in alt-az mode for a number of years before I started imaging with it.

I am waiting o an ioptron CEM70G mount at the moment to replace the AZEQ and relegate it to second mount status.
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Old 13-07-2020, 08:09 PM
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Hi Bo and David,
Took a closer look at the CGX, and I also saw it the shop over weekend. Its really nice mount but getting too big for what I can handle, the head alone of 20kg. As for the EQ8-R, it has some fantastic features in terms of next-gen electronics and expansion, but again the weight is getting beyond what I can lift and need wrt capacity. But many thanks for the suggestions.
Fox

Last edited by Fox; 13-07-2020 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 13-07-2020, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeteth View Post
You could get an EQ8 for about the $6k mark if you are worried about payload capacity (up to 50kg on the EQ8), however they are a pretty heavy mount and not really built for portability or setting up/tearing down constantly.

Do you have any idea what the total weight of your payload will be? You will need to factor in scope, camera, guidescope and any other accessories you'll have on there.

The other thing to consider - all the costs add up pretty quick when getting into astrophotography. Obviously the mount, scope and camera are the big ones - but don't forget there's a heap of other stuff you might want/need such as guide scope, guide cam, dew heaters, flatbox, focal reducer, filters, filter wheel and certainly don't forget the software! I suggest thinking about what items you will need right off the bat and work out a total overall budget so you know exactly what you need to spend. I'm not trying to scare you away at all, it's all definitely worth it - but I was somewhat blindsided with how quick it can all add up.
Hi David,

~50kg capacity - I'm sure I won't go near it, the NP127is with rings is just on 8kg, and with the extra gear I'll need it may get to 12-13 kg tops I reckon.

Thank you for the heads up regarding all the extra bits:
  1. I already have a dew heater for the main scope.
  2. I don't think I'll need a focal reducer nor a field flattener cos the NP127is is f/5.2 and inherently flat cos' of the Nagler-Petzval design.
  3. I have a vintage 1.25 inch Lumicon Deep Sky Filter - I'm hoping this will help with urban skies to begin with.
  4. I have a ZWO ASI 224MC camera on order just a starter camera.
  5. I'm a Mac user but have a PC laptop for AP purposes (USB 3).


But hell yeah, still to get:
  1. Guidescope and guide cam will cost.
  2. Don't know if my eyepiece dew heater can be used for the camera ?
  3. Bahtinov mask will be needed.
  4. Flatbox - what the hell is that ?
  5. Filters and Filter wheel - yeah, all in good time.
  6. Software - I will need advice from you guys when the time comes, I have a old copy of Adobe Photoshop - not sure if its PC or Mac, it could well be too old for todays OS's.

I certainly appreciate the reality check, but I'm hoping many of these things are once-off costs, bought over time as you get more and more into it. Many thanks! Fox
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Old 13-07-2020, 11:37 PM
Xeteth (David)
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Flatbox - what the hell is that ?

I certainly appreciate the reality check, but I'm hoping many of these things are once-off costs, bought over time as you get more and more into it. Many thanks! Fox
Sounds like you've got most things in order, glad to hear! The EQ6 should handle that weight of scope with ease . Most of it is indeed a once-off cost, only needing to spend more if upgrading. A flatbox is used to assist in creating flats - these help to remove vignetting and any dust motes that are present throughout the imaging train. A flatbox is totally optional, as you can use the old white t-shirt method (and other methods) - but I certainly found life a lot easier with one. If you do choose to get one now or in the future I highly recommend ordering one from Peter from IIS - his are great!

Regarding the software - there's many tools that will be able to do the job. There's no 'best software' out there, really it comes down to personal preference in what features you're after.

You'll need an image capture software - Astrophotography Tool, Sequence Generator Pro, NINA, Sharpcap are a few examples. Then you'll need a stacking software (most people use DeepSkyStacker, it's free and does a great job) and something to process the images - commonly Photoshop or PixInsight are used, but there's many others out there.

Good luck with it all, don't get frustrated if things don't work out at first - there's a steep learning curve but it's great when you get a stellar image!
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Old 14-07-2020, 07:29 AM
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If you are talking in terms of up to 6K for a mount, that would cover an ioptron CEM70G, which has an inbuilt guidescope/camera. I am actually waiting on delivery of one now. 600 mm or so would be about the limit on where you would think an inbuilt guider could perform before short focal length and differential flexure may become a problem.

That said, the inbuilt guider may or may not turn out to be a good thing, I am going in to that bit with my eyes open that I may end up having to buy a new OAG and guide cam sometime after the mount arrives. I am refreshing almost everything, so all my existing gear including OAG and guide cam will get put on my SCT for my son to use on the existing AZEQ mount. If he looses interest then I will have two imaging rigs at once. I am gambling on the inbuilt guider being a good thing. There was no significant cost difference between a CEM70 plus a new OAG and guide cam or a CEM70G with no new OAG or camera due to the inbuilt setup, that left the difference being better electronic integration on the CEM70G (Which has USB3 instead of USB2, and an inbuilt hub which leaves you with a single USB3 connection on the stationary part of the mount for mount control, inbuilt guider, inbuilt electronic polar scope and 3 port hub on the puck.
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Old 14-07-2020, 08:30 AM
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Not that you need another option here, but...

I was thinking last night, if I was looking for something in between skywatcher and 10micro/AP/etc, I'd be looking closely at the avalon linear or M uno. Guiding graphs from these are amazing, they look sensational, a massive step up in quality, by the looks of it. They're not that expensive when bought in Aus. Testar, on the sidebar here, sells em, I can see a pic of the uno right now.

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Old 14-07-2020, 03:58 PM
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Just my opinion, but with a scope of that size and focal length, an AZ-EQ6/EQ6-R would be more than capable.

They’re adequately engineered and well-trodden ground, so lots of folk to answer questions about

The more expensive mounts just get bigger and heavier...
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