A Great night! First obs in months w/ 12" dob, 3rd Sept

[§AB]

After the worst Autumn and winter on record, with constant freaking Melbourne cloud, it was, by a MIRACLE, clear! This was completely surprising, as Melbourne has a pathetic climate. Move over Britain

I removed several kilos of dust from the 12" truss dob, collimated it and hauled it outside. Left it for 3 hours, then I got KFC to solve my hunger issues for the night and to satisfy my KFC addiction. I'm happy to say, there is alot of left-over KFC, but no toilet paper

Got started at about 9.30pm. There was a bit of wind which kept dew at bay so that was good. Seeing was poor (Melbourne-style), transparency seemed ordinary (lots of haze on the horizon during sunset). Despite this, it would prove to be a stunning night. I did the obligatory dusting of the primary mirror and found it was covered with cat hairs! I was like z0MG WTF!?! It was scary sight, but it blew off easily. Well that's what happens when there's 4 cats in the house.


Scope: 12" F/4.6 truss dob
Time: 9.30pm - 1am
Seeing: 3-4/10
Transparency: 3/5


Jupiter
I was quite impressed with the view at 176x and 208x. Despite seeing, I could see a series of ovals in the STeB and a series of streamers in the SEB. During one moment of good seeing it started to take on a semi-photographic appearance. Also spotted a couple of white ovals in the area adjecent the southern edge of the NEB, while the NEB itself was interesting, appearing like a dark brown streak set ontop of a wider paler band. Hints of festoons in good seeing.

M27 Dumbell Nebula
The Nob Head next door decided it would be fun to turn his lights on and off, so I was just brainstorming ways to kick his butt and nuke his light while observing the Dumbell for the first time with this scope. Luckily, his light is hidden behind my house, but the darned thing floods my backyard...

At 108x, it was bright, apple core shape with a brighter blob on its southern edge. I tried it with the OIII filter and stuff me the thing was just blazing! The whole football shaped literally glowed a flourescent blue-green and just shone out of the eyepiece. Infact, I closed my eyes, and I could still see it....next time i'll have to double stack the OIII with the moon filter lol

NGC 6572
Stumbled across the sky's 3rd best globular while hunting a galaxy cluster in Pavo. Pretty much resolved at 44x. Bumped it up to 217x and I could see a tiny, strange bar spiking out of the core in a southwesterly direction. It was tiny, didn't extend beyond the core area but anyone out there know what this is? Alignment of stars perhaps?

NGC 6744
Big face-on spiral galaxy in Pavo. All I saw was a tiny fuzzy core at 83x.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Abell S 805
Now this is a galaxy cluster in Pavo. I printed out an iamge so I can use it to find the galaxies. The main galaxy is IC 4765 which was easy to spot as a formless glow at 217x. I spent about an hour picking off objects in this cluster.
The other objects I spotted:-

PGC 62408
Tiny elliptical galaxy adjacent a 10th mag star, whose glare made it difficult to observe this galaxy. That aside, the galaxy wasn't too difficult. I can't find magnitudes for this object anywhere. Anyone can help me out?

IC 4766
Located east of 12th mag star USNAO0225-29566556, I did managed spot this galaxy intermittently, it was very faint and difficult to observe. Magnitude???

PGC 62412
I got rare glimpses of this galaxy, but it was extremely difficult to see, excessively faint and only manged to spot it maybe 25% of the time. Located about midway between IC4765 and 12th mag star USNAO0225-29566556. Any got the mag for this one?

PGC 62391
Located midway between IC4765 and 11th mag star TYC9073-1126-1, I could only detect hints of this object, I may have seen it but not sure.

Now for some observations of a few stars in this area which astounded me:
USNOA2 0225-29556543
This star is located just north of a 12th mag pair. I could *just* detect this star, and so I jotted it down in my notes. I did a bit of sluething this morning was almost fell off my chair when I found it is magnitude 15.95!!!!!! IS THIS POSSIBLE!!?!

I also definately saw the stars USNAO2 0225-29553970 and USNAO2 0225-29551360, but are they really mag 15.75 and 15.5 respectively

FYI, all these observations were done at 217x.

I have attached an image of the cluster+stars so if anyone can help me out that would be great.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grus Quartet
I only ever saw 3 of these 4 galaxies in my 4.5" and was totally stunned how easy they were in the 12". NGC 7552 was a somewhat circular orb with a stellar core at both 83x and 176x. NGC 7582 is the largest of the lot, a lovely spindle of light with a bright core at 83x while increasing mag to 176x bought out a tiny stellar core. NGC 7590 appeared as a bright, small sliver of light at 83x while a mag of 176x gave it a fatter, more diffuse appearance. NGC 7599 was larger and much more diffuse than NGC 7590, hence it appeared much fainter and infact was the faintest of all the Grus Quartet. At 176x I could see a tiny starlinke object just offset from the center of the galaxy towards the northeast. The core? Or a faint foreground star? All in all these 4 galaxies are very pretty in the 12"

Helix Nebula
Visible as a large round glow at 44x, hint of a brighter ring with fainter inner region. Dropped in the 17mm LVW for 83x and the OIII filter and wow there was a HUGE bright ring looming infront of me! The shape was defintely recognisable from photos and I could see that the north and south sides of the ring were brighter than the east-west. The central region was distinctly fainter than the outer ring but definately brighter than the background sky. Saw about 4-5 faint stars superimposed on the nebula (with OIII in place).

Saturn Nebula
Seeing was poor and this being a small object with detail, it would probably be not as good as it could be. At 217x I could see a greenish eye shaped ring bathed in a diffuse glow. I increased the power to 353x, defying the seeing and I could actually glimpse the 2 extensions which give the nebula its name!!! It took averted vision and concentration, but they were there!

NGC 253
One of the highlights of the night for sure. At 108x, i could suspect mottling, and the core that's visible on photos was seen and I could even hint at a dust lane just to the northwest of the core. I increased mag to 176x and despite everything else, the galaxy was clearly mottled and uneven! The texture visible on photos was becoming apparent!

NGC 247
Just a fat, stubby streak at 83x, framed by 3 11th mag stars.

NGC 55
NGC 253's sister IMO! At 176x, it started to take on a mottled, knotted appearance. 3 tiny clumps of brightness were visible towards the western end, while another less conspicious blob was seen just east of the main bunch. Like ngc253, would be a stunner from dark skies!

NGC 134
Lovely bright streak of light at 217x. I got the impression that the northwestern edge of the galaxy was obscured by a dust lane. A 13.5 mag star lies just to the northeast of the core with another 13.5 mag star a bit further away on the opposite side.


I was going to go for the Pegasus cluster but ran out of steam. Packed it in at about 1am and topped it off with a hot chocolate. A fantastic comeback to observing!

[NQLD_Newby]

Great Report SAB. Sounds like a busy night. I think you sent all your clouds up here. I can't help you with the mags of those stars, as I'm at work. Will have a look tonight at home if noone else has done it by then. Keep up the great work.

[Rob_K]

Good stuff SAB, nice report! Hope you get a few more 'clearies'...

Cheers -

[Jen]

Well done Sab wow what a story sounds like you done all of those six months you missed out on in one night
great work cheers

[GrampianStars (Rob)]

Great report yep tiring first night out for a while
on visual magnitude for the 12" I think it's around 14.5
under perfect conditions
" as for IC 4766...I did managed spot this galaxy intermittently, it was very faint and difficult to observe. Magnitude???"
Mag is around 13.3
which under the conditions you described
is about the best you can get

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

A great report. It was almost like being there with you. Though if I was there I would have made you stay up till Orion had risen.

[§AB]

Thanks everyone!

Great report yep tiring first night out for a while http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/....milies/lol.gif
on visual magnitude for the 12" I think it's around 14.5
under perfect conditions
" as for IC 4766...I did managed spot this galaxy intermittently, it was very faint and difficult to observe. Magnitude???"
Mag is around 13.3
which under the conditions you described
is about the best you can get http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/....s/thumbsup.gif

I think the generally accepted limiting mag for a 12" scope is about 15.3. I've read in Sky and Tel that Stephen O'Meara has sighted the central star in M57 with a 9" refractor from a suburban location and Dave Knisley on CN has commented that he made mag 15.7 with 9.25" SCT (see here: http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...3/Main/2564868 ).

The galaxies and stars I mentioned were at high elevation and out here at Berwick light pollution is not as bad, the sky is still "black", not orange

Maybe ngcles can help us out here...

[Ric]

Great report SAB, very enjoyable to read.

Hope you get some more good nights in.

Cheers

[Jen]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

A great report. It was almost like being there with you. Though if I was there I would have made you stay up till Orion had risen.

me too

[TrevorW]

Well done SAB sounds like you definitely made up for lost time

[§AB]

Originally Posted by Jen

me too

Lol you girls don't cha know that a guy can only do it for so long until he has to withdraw.....


....from observing lmfao

and thanks to everyone for their kind words Oh and the PGC galaxies I mentioned, they were m,y first PGC objects so I'm stoked over that ...now if anyone has the magnitudes.....

BTW, I actually forgot to add one object:

IC 4721
A large, nearly edge-on spiral galaxy. I couldn't see it, although at 217x I thought I could hint at a faint streak, but couldn't confirm it for sure after half an hour of intent observation. Listed as mag 13.3 but is large. Another, much smaller elliptical galaxy is located just to the SW, I spotted this galaxy, it was visible although avertd vision required. The online mapping program I was using to get the mags of these galaxies and stars didn't show this small elliptical, but upon further research I believe it is IC 4721A . Once again, I couldn't find magnitude for this so if anyone can help out.....that is ofcourse most welcome.

FYI, the program I used to get the mags of the stars I reported is www.sky-map.org

[ngcles]

Hi §AB,

Congratulations on your big night! You certainly made up for lost time with the cloud.

Excellent observations -- paints a good picture of what was seen and what it looked like. Good to see you looked at NGC 134. Did you see NGC 131 nearby?

First up here are my observations of the IC 4765 group made in July 2000 with 31cm from our nearly dark site in the southern highlands. I noted the transparency was 8 and seeing 7. I have no independent recollection of the night or the galaxy group so I can only conclude the ZLM was about the 6.2 - 6.3 mark.

x186 36' TF. IC 4765, IC 4769 and PGC 62391 are in the same field, ESO 104-7 is also there.

IC 4765 Mag 12.3p Size 3.4' x 1.8'. Obvious but not large, perhaps 1.5-1.75' diameter. Typical elliptical profile rising moderately and broadly to the centre azonally without any obvious nucleus. Possible slight elongation in PA 135. In PA 300 4' distant is a tiny glow -PGC 62391. IC 4769 is is 11' N and ESO 104-7 is 2' S.

PGC 62391 Mag ?? Size ?? 4' W of IC 4765, perhaps 30" diameter rising moderately and evenly to the centre. very faint * embedded in the halo or just to the N off halo.

IC 4769 Mag 14.1p Size 1.9' x 1.1'.Found 11' N of IC 4765, very LSB, 50" x 15", lengthened form of gossamer rising slightly to the axis and centre.

ESO 104-7 (PGC 62408) Mag 12.9v Size 1.6' x 0.8'. Moderately faint only 2' S of IC 4765. not particularly difficult, 50" x 30" in PA 90. Brightens moderately to the centre without discernable core or nucleus.

So it seems you saw IC 4766 when I seem to have missed it, but I recorded the other two PGC/ESO galaxies in pretty much the same way you did with the exception of a faint star I saw in the halo of -91.

§AB wrote "This star is located just north of a 12th mag pair. I could *just* detect this star, and so I jotted it down in my notes. I did a bit of sluething this morning was almost fell off my chair when I found it is magnitude 15.95!!!!!! IS THIS POSSIBLE!!?!"

Certainly. But an excellent accomplishment in what I take were outer suburban conditions. What was the ZLM (NELM) ?

As for limiting magnitude with a 12". Well that depends on a lot of things. Experience, optics, conditions, elevation and perhaps most importantly time spent at the eyepiece.

I see you said "I spent about an hour picking off objects in this cluster." and that is probably what made the difference between detecting these very faint stars and not seeing them.

I know the faintest stars in my 12" seen were a bit worse than true v magnitude 16. About 16.3 I think from memory, but I frequently saw mid 15s if I went looking for them, concentrated and spent just a little time to detect them.

It all depends up how much time you are willing to spend. It also depends on what you call "seen". In the pursuit of extremely faint objects, some observers will call it detected if seen two or three times
over maybe 20 mins. Others (like me) find it hard to be that patient! I will sometimes spend 15 or 20 minutes trying to detect extremely faint extended objects but generally not stars (at least not on purpose).

If you are prepared to become ultra dark adapted, go to a true pristine site at elevation and spend about an hour at the eyepiece to get two or three glimpses of a faint mote, then low 16s or even 17th v magnitude (stellar -- not extended) isn't entirely out of the question for 12". It also depends on the age, experience and acuity of the observer.

For the rest of us, assuming a reasonably experienced observer, good conditions at sea-level, its probably about the faint end of 15s seeing regular though occasional glimpses of the star with AV.

Great report mate -- a ripper!

Seems you sent the cloud this way, been raining here for 12 hrs straight.


Best,

Les D

[Jen]

Originally Posted by §AB

Lol you girls don't cha know that a guy can only do it for so long until he has to withdraw.....


....from observing lmfao

[§AB]

Originally Posted by ngcles

Hi §AB,

Congratulations on your big night! You certainly made up for lost time with the cloud.

thankyou Les! It was one of the best sessions i've ever had, despite the seeing. Everything just went perfectly!

Excellent observations -- paints a good picture of what was seen and what it looked like. Good to see you looked at NGC 134. Did you see NGC 131 nearby?

Ah yes I did see NGC 131, but forgot to report it. It was easy at 217x (my increasingly favourite galaxy hunting mag), appearing as a slightly elongated glow. NGCIC.org has it at mag 13.1.

First up here are my observations of the IC 4765 group made in July 2000 with 31cm from our nearly dark site in the southern highlands. I noted the transparency was 8 and seeing 7. I have no independent recollection of the night or the galaxy group so I can only conclude the ZLM was about the 6.2 - 6.3 mark.

x186 36' TF. IC 4765, IC 4769 and PGC 62391 are in the same field, ESO 104-7 is also there.

IC 4765 Mag 12.3p Size 3.4' x 1.8'. Obvious but not large, perhaps 1.5-1.75' diameter. Typical elliptical profile rising moderately and broadly to the centre azonally without any obvious nucleus. Possible slight elongation in PA 135. In PA 300 4' distant is a tiny glow -PGC 62391. IC 4769 is is 11' N and ESO 104-7 is 2' S.

PGC 62391 Mag ?? Size ?? 4' W of IC 4765, perhaps 30" diameter rising moderately and evenly to the centre. very faint * embedded in the halo or just to the N off halo.

IC 4769 Mag 14.1p Size 1.9' x 1.1'.Found 11' N of IC 4765, very LSB, 50" x 15", lengthened form of gossamer rising slightly to the axis and centre.

ESO 104-7 (PGC 62408) Mag 12.9v Size 1.6' x 0.8'. Moderately faint only 2' S of IC 4765. not particularly difficult, 50" x 30" in PA 90. Brightens moderately to the centre without discernable core or nucleus.

So it seems you saw IC 4766 when I seem to have missed it, but I recorded the other two PGC/ESO galaxies in pretty much the same way you did with the exception of a faint star I saw in the halo of -91.

yup IC 4766 was definatelly there, but was very difficult and required intense concentration and averted vision to spot.

§AB wrote "This star is located just north of a 12th mag pair. I could *just* detect this star, and so I jotted it down in my notes. I did a bit of sluething this morning was almost fell off my chair when I found it is magnitude 15.95!!!!!! IS THIS POSSIBLE!!?!"

Certainly. But an excellent accomplishment in what I take were outer suburban conditions. What was the ZLM (NELM) ?

My eyesight is pretty crap (near-sightedness+astigmatism), but I'd say it would be in the 5.0-5.5 range (I can see all stars in Copernicus). But both my parents have developed far-sightedness, my grnadma is short sighted; so could be genetic, and/or my long hours of staring at computer screens at uni!

As for limiting magnitude with a 12". Well that depends on a lot of things. Experience, optics, conditions, elevation and perhaps most importantly time spent at the eyepiece.

A good 8 years under my belt since I got my 4.5" reflector and really got into deep sky hunting

I see you said "I spent about an hour picking off objects in this cluster." and that is probably what made the difference between detecting these very faint stars and not seeing them.

You're right, the 15.95 mag (very almost 16!!!!) star only started popping in and out of view after several minutes.

I know the faintest stars in my 12" seen were a bit worse than true v magnitude 16. About 16.3 I think from memory, but I frequently saw mid 15s if I went looking for them, concentrated and spent just a little time to detect them.

So my sightning is entirely plausable then, that being a mag 15.95 star from 5.0-5.5 skies. I wasn't dreaming then!

It all depends up how much time you are willing to spend. It also depends on what you call "seen". In the pursuit of extremely faint objects, some observers will call it detected if seen two or three times
over maybe 20 mins. Others (like me) find it hard to be that patient! I will sometimes spend 15 or 20 minutes trying to detect extremely faint extended objects but generally not stars (at least not on purpose).

I'm probably more like you, I'll concentrate at my hardest and use full on averted vision in an attempt to spot a faint target within several minutes, If i don't see anything within 30 minutes I'll call it a no sightning. However, if I see 'something' once or twice, I'll call it 'suspected'; and if I catch regular glimpses, I'll call it confirmed. Faint stars are fun to chase, just to see how "low you can go!" Now that I've captured a mag 15.95 star, I'd say many Quasars are within my reach, yes?

If you are prepared to become ultra dark adapted, go to a true pristine site at elevation and spend about an hour at the eyepiece to get two or three glimpses of a faint mote, then low 16s or even 17th v magnitude (stellar -- not extended) isn't entirely out of the question for 12". It also depends on the age, experience and acuity of the observer.

That'll be cool, but are there any deserted areas in the hills where one could setup and not see a single car or person the whole night? Like say lake shores, carparks and river banks - they are normally public land...

For the rest of us, assuming a reasonably experienced observer, good conditions at sea-level, its probably about the faint end of 15s seeing regular though occasional glimpses of the star with AV.

Great report mate -- a ripper!

Yup that pretty much describes my 15.95 mag star - just glimpses. A couple of neighbouring 15.5 and 15.7 stars were held in vision pretty much constantly.

Once again thank you for your comprehensive reply Les.

Clear skies to you!
Sab.

[ngcles]

Hi §AB & All,

Yes quite a number of quasars are within reach of 12".

BTW, which interface did you use to access the USNOA2??

Just to save me hunting, I mentioned a star superimposed on the northern edge of or just outside PGC 62391 -- this (according to Megastar) is GSC 9073:481 (which according to the GSC is also a "non-star" -- ie one not to guide on for a host of possible reasons).

Megastar supplies a magnitude of 14.7 +/- 0.4. But, when you look at the image you posted of the group, this star is clearly shown and seems to be approximately of the same brightness (on the plate) as mid-fifteen's you record. On Realsky (POSS I), it is perhaps a fraction brighter than them.

Just curious as to what the true magnitude of that superimposed star on the northern halo of PGC 62391 is. I'd guesstimate 15.3 but what is it?


Best,

Les D

[§AB]

Originally Posted by ngcles

Hi §AB & All,

Yes quite a number of quasars are within reach of 12".

BTW, which interface did you use to access the USNOA2??

I used sky-map.org. You type in the name of an object and it displays the object and surrounding field, and if you move the mouse over objects a small pop-up appears giving various data foir that object.

Just to save me hunting, I mentioned a star superimposed on the northern edge of or just outside PGC 62391 -- this (according to Megastar) is GSC 9073:481 (which according to the GSC is also a "non-star" -- ie one not to guide on for a host of possible reasons).

Megastar supplies a magnitude of 14.7 +/- 0.4. But, when you look at the image you posted of the group, this star is clearly shown and seems to be approximately of the same brightness (on the plate) as mid-fifteen's you record. On Realsky (POSS I), it is perhaps a fraction brighter than them.

Just curious as to what the true magnitude of that superimposed star on the northern halo of PGC 62391 is. I'd guesstimate 15.3 but what is it?

Best,

Les D

Sky-map.org lists the star at the northern edge of PGC 62391 as mag 14.45.

[Rob_K]

Hey SAB, here's a good link for your qasar hunting:

http://www.seds.org/~spider/spider/Misc/qso.html

Cheers -

[erick (Eric)]

Hey SAB - so good to see you happy and successful!

[ngcles]

Hi §AB, Rob K & All,

Wow that skymap.org is a fantastic resource -- I've never seen it before but I can tell it's gonna be a frequently visited site for me -- thanks for the link §AB.

In addition to the link Rob K provided, if you are into Quasar and BL Lacertae object hunting, this is a more complete list though most will require very large telescopes:

http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/KHQ/anhang.txt

Next Autumn/Winter I'm hoping to have a go at a few of these:

J01.03 HYA 0937-183 09 39 51.2 -18 32 16 QSO 2.400 16.20

CSO 38 LMI 1009+299 10 11 55.7 +29 41 41 QSO 2.620 16.00

HE 1104-1805 CRT 1104-180 11 06 33.6 -18 21 25 QSO 2.319 16.20

HE 1122-1648 CRT 1122-168 11 24 42.8 -17 05 18 QSO 2.400 16.50

B2 1422+231 BOO 1422+231 14 24 38.1 +22 56 01 QSO 3.620 16.50

The figures in bold are the red-shift (z) and the final figure is magnitude. All of them have red-shifts over 2 and in "look-back" time are about the 10.5 to 11GYR mark. The one at 3.6 is about 12 GYR -- though it will be a very difficult target due to low elevation at culmination. The one in Leo Minor suffers the same problem -- though, you never know 'til you have a go. I'd be surprised if the Hydra/Crater ones aren't visible in 18" as they culminate not far from zenith.

My present record holder out of the list at the link is:

Q 1224-1116 VIR 1224-112 12 27 24.9 -11 33 35 QSO 1.979 15.40

Which is 10.3 Gyr "look-back" time. With 18" in near pristine conditions, I can hold it with direct vision pretty easily most of the time -- A.V a doddle. It got a run in Mar/Apr Deep Sky Delights p 64. I'd reckon 12 -14" would pick it up in very good conditions.


Best,

Les D

[§AB]

Thanks Rob, I'll give that one in Eridanus a shake if the Melbourne cloud ever clears.

Originally Posted by ngcles

Hi §AB, Rob K & All,

Wow that skymap.org is a fantastic resource -- I've never seen it before but I can tell it's gonna be a frequently visited site for me -- thanks for the link §AB.

I'm surprised you of all people have never come across it! I actually found it by accident while searching for IC 4766's magnitude.

In addition to the link Rob K provided, if you are into Quasar and BL Lacertae object hunting, this is a more complete list though most will require very large telescopes:

http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/KHQ/anhang.txt

Next Autumn/Winter I'm hoping to have a go at a few of these:

J01.03 HYA 0937-183 09 39 51.2 -18 32 16 QSO 2.400 16.20

CSO 38 LMI 1009+299 10 11 55.7 +29 41 41 QSO 2.620 16.00

HE 1104-1805 CRT 1104-180 11 06 33.6 -18 21 25 QSO 2.319 16.20

HE 1122-1648 CRT 1122-168 11 24 42.8 -17 05 18 QSO 2.400 16.50

B2 1422+231 BOO 1422+231 14 24 38.1 +22 56 01 QSO 3.620 16.50

The figures in bold are the red-shift (z) and the final figure is magnitude. All of them have red-shifts over 2 and in "look-back" time are about the 10.5 to 11GYR mark. The one at 3.6 is about 12 GYR -- though it will be a very difficult target due to low elevation at culmination. The one in Leo Minor suffers the same problem -- though, you never know 'til you have a go. I'd be surprised if the Hydra/Crater ones aren't visible in 18" as they culminate not far from zenith.

There was an article in AS&T a few months ago mentioning a Quasar in Corvus which is about 10.3 billion lightyears away, and shines at mag 15.3. Thanks to melbourne's dispicable weather, it'll have to wait until next year.

My present record holder out of the list at the link is:

Q 1224-1116 VIR 1224-112 12 27 24.9 -11 33 35 QSO 1.979 15.40

Which is 10.3 Gyr "look-back" time. With 18" in near pristine conditions, I can hold it with direct vision pretty easily most of the time -- A.V a doddle. It got a run in Mar/Apr Deep Sky Delights p 64. I'd reckon 12 -14" would pick it up in very good conditions.


Best,

Les D

pretty amazing when you can see something so far away from your backyard isn't it?