Hi, I have an Orion Telescope and Binocular ED-80 Apo Refractor on a Televue Gibraltar Mount.
I'm thinking of getting a new scope, and was wondering what people thought of the Skywatcher Mak 127 / AZ GTi combination? That's going for little under $1000 at the moment from various retailers. Is it worth it as an upgrade, primarily for Moon, planets, and brighter deep sky objects?
Or should I wait, get a HEQ5 Pro mount and a Skywatcher Quattro 8" f4 Newtonian (my other choice, but more expensive)? I'm primarily doing visual astronomy at this time, but am interested in getting into astro imaging. I'm observing from home, and I live in fairly light polluted skies (Canberra - with a street light near my home).
The Mak 127 / AZ GTi is lighter than the HEQ5 Pro / 8" combination, so easier to travel with, but I'm wondering whether the jump from a 3" Apo to a 5" Mak going to really be that significant in terms of being able to see more? The GOTO of the AZ GTi would be welcome, and I like the integrated wifi to allow me to connect into mobile devices easily, but I can get the same with the HEQ5 Pro mount, albeit a bit less elegantly.
As a beginner stay clear of an F4 newt ( most people will agree ), they are primarily for imaging ( you can do observing with a coma corrector but they are not designed for observing ) they also can be difficult to collimate
For observing and astrophotography (most objects in the night sky ) I started with a Bintel GSO 6” f6 newt on a HEQ5 mount and still use it in Sydney ( Bortle 8 skies) had it for 2 years now and wouldn’t part with it. Only cost me $300, weighs 6.5kg , easy to collimate ( 5 minutes ) and very little coma
Check my images out in the beginner section
It’s great for observing too , the only mod I made was to replace the single speed focuser with a dual speed Crayford focuser
I cannot comment on other scopes as I’m a newt man through and through
I have an 8” f5 for astrophotography down at my dark site and a 12” f5 Goto Dob as well
Cheers
If you are looking at staying with visual, why not an 8" dob? The come as either solid tube or collapsible (bit more compact). If the collapsible option opens transport option, then there's larger dob aperture options that can fit in your budget.
If going manual scares you a bit, you could also add digital setting circles to it, like the Nexus II from Astro Devices (Aussie made too!), and point the scope with the help of an app on your phone, such as Sky Safari. You select the object you want to look at, and move the scope while looking at your phone to follow the little marker (your scope) until it sits over the selected object. The Nexus II uses wifi to communicate with your phone, tablet or computer. Goto is not the only computer aided scope pointing option out there.
GEM's are complicated to use, and time consuming to set up and pack. An alt az mount is much easier, and a dob is the easiest of all.
I'm certainly no expert but, after a bit of googling & reading some comparisons I doubt that you will see a great deal of difference between your 3" APO & a 5" Mak to be honest...
In terms of overall magnification, theoretically the Mak will allow you to go higher but, that is largely governed by seeing conditions... Just because you can theoretically gain higher magnification doesn't mean you gain any benefit from it.
In terms of light capture, sure 5" Mak is a bigger aperture than a 3" APO but, the light paths are different so, while theoretically the Mak gathers more light, it also loses more light during the reflective path it follows more so than the design of a refractor so, the nett gain in that area may not be as significant as you may think.
In all honesty, if you are just chasing big aperture for dimmer objects, go with Mental's suggestion & get an 8" Dob... When I bought my 8" SCT, which I love, I sold my 80mm APO & I wish I hadn't... so much so, I'm buying another one & it's costing me more than $1K secondhand... (okay, it's a Tak FS78 but, still it's more than $1K).
Keep your 80mm, whilst the images aren't huge, they are fantastically sharp on planets, sharper on planets & lunar than my 8" SCT unless seeing conditions are fantastic... & certainly no less stunning views in my opinion than my 8" SCT either on certain targets...
My 2 cents worth.... the gain from the 5" Mak will be insufficient to justify the expenditure...
If you’re interested in imaging, a tracking mount is a must.
The Mak 127 will give you a good focal length for targeting the Moon and brighter planets, but the slow f-ratio will be hopeless for DSOs.
On the flip side, an f/4 newt would be good for DSOs, but they’re notoriously difficult to collimate, and I wouldn’t recommend one as a first newt. If you want something with a bit more reach for DSOs, go for an f/5 8” as they’re a lot easier to get in their sweet spot.
Ultimately, there is no ideal scope. Each type has its own strengths and weaknesses. You just need to settle on what you want to use it for to help make the right choice.
Hi all - that's useful. I had also spoken to Pete up at Astro-Anarchy and he basically gave me the same view - the jump from the ED-80 to the Mak-127 wouldn't be that significant to justify the money spent, and the AZGTI mount is really limited in terms of the payload it can carry.
The Dob idea is obviously interesting. I was wanting GOTO, but to be honest, I could get a Dob, and then transfer the ED-80 over to a GOTO mount later.
Also, there seemed to be a consensus about not going with Fast Newtonians if I'm mainly doing visual work, so I'll take that on board. Hence it might lead me back to a Dob. I used to have an Orion Optics UK 14" Dob when I was living in the UK, and wish I'd never sold it, but had little choice as I was moving for work purposes.
Thanks for the heads up re Nexus II - will check that out. It sounds like it might be an alternative to an expensive and potentially heavy Skywatcher GOTO mount like a HEQ-5 Pro.
I do not agree with the "consensus" against fast Newts for visual.
I have two 8" f/4 instruments, one is exclusively for visual, and the other I can use on a dobbie mount or on a GEM. I have no problem with collimating them, and both hold collimation really, really well. Mind you, the primary mirror cell of both scopes were fabricated by me, including that of the solid tube where I have also modified the secondary assembly. This is where the majority of collimation problems lie with mass production scopes - the primary cell is not adequately manufactured, same with the secondary mirror holder. If these two vital components are properly made, collimation is not an issue.
For visual, I do use a coma corrector when using 30mm and 24mm eyepieces, but not with any other shorter focal length EP.
These two dobbies are phenomenal as rich field scopes. With a 30mm 82° eyepiece, I can get a HUGE 3° true field of view. And having made both dob mounts myself too, manual tracking at high power is a breeze too - no backlash, silky smooth and balanced (no need to use clamping devices to provide quasi balance).
It is incorrect to dismiss really fast Newts for visual. What is critical is that these instruments, and mounts, be properly made. There are plenty of BIG dobs that are faster than f/4 too, and none of these have collimation issues beyond what any other well made Newtonian has.
I am no pro and have learned a lot here but you say
"I'm wondering whether the jump from a 3" Apo to a 5" Mak going to really be that significant in terms of being able to see more"
In my opinion, no, remember it is horses for courses, if you drive off road you don't buy a family saloon, if you drive on road you don't buy a Hummer?
I am not into fuzzy objects, I am Planet and Moon therefore I have a refractor and SC, can I see more with one over the other .... no, one is 5", the SC 8".
"See more" is relative.................
Personally I don't get on with dobs, I find them a pain (really) to use the eyepiece is either too high or too low especially on the small 6-8" ones then after that you need a ladder
1. Keep the APO as a OTA to start imaging with. You need a new mount to image with it, plus camera, auto-guider and possibly a laptop, that much is evident.
2. For visual moon & planets, by all means the SW127 + the mount is a nice buy at a good price. This combination is very portable and great for casual observing.
3. Once you learn more about imaging and have a better idea of what you want to do possibly swap the APO for something bigger/better. Or not, as the case may be.
IMHO this is a very slippery slope, think carefully where it leads.
This is all really useful advice. I'm keeping the ED-80 Apo. Its getting a bit long in the tooth but the optics are fine and its a good refractor. It just needs a GOTO mount for astro-imaging.
I'm considering two options based on the input I've received here, and the analysis I've done. The first option is a Dob - probably Bintel's BT-302B 12" which would have loads of light gathering power, but its a purely visual instrument. The alternative would be the Skywatcher Black Diamond 8" f5 newt on the HEQ5 Pro mount, which would give me the GOTO capability, as a starting point for getting into astro-imaging down the track. The latter is a considerably more expensive setup, but it comes down to what I want in terms of long-term flexibility.
I have a good grab and go Apo with the ED-80/Televue Gibraltar combination, and what I wanted was a GOTO mount with a bigger aperture OTA. The initial consideration of the AZGTI / Mak 127 I think won't work because that mount will only hold up to a 5kg load, so it constrains me too much. And whilst the Mak will be good on planets and the Moon, it may not be so good for DSOs. The HEQ5 Pro mount gives me flexibility on future OTAs and can take my ED-80 as well. Its more complex to set up than a Dob, but I'm wondering if I'll get more done with it in the long run?
Not looking to purchase until next month, so I have time to think through these options some more.
If you intend to do long exposure Astro imaging at a later stage , I would not recommend using a HEQ5 mount carrying an 8” f5 Newtonian
The HEQ5 mount has a maximum payload capacity of around 13.5kg
For long exposure Astro imaging the general rule of thumb is generally 60% to 65% of your mounts maximum payload capacity
An 8” f5 ( non carbon fibre ) weighs about 9kg then add your imaging camera, coma corrector, guide scope , guide camera , dew heaters , adapters etc ... for a total payload of approximately 12 to 13 kg
If you intend to use a HEQ5 mount for long exposure Astro imaging your total payload ideally should be no greater than say 8kg
To use an 8” f5 ( non carbon fibre ) for long exposure Astro imaging I recommend a larger mount like the EQ6 or EQ6-R which can carry max 20 to 21kg or an alternative Celestron Mount
I use a 6” f6 newt on a HEQ5 mount and an 8” f5 newt on an EQ6-R mount for long exposure Astro imaging
NB: I should have also mentioned wind conditions if your imaging is done outdoors and not in an observatory.The heavier duty mount will also give you some tolerance on possible wind conditions
In addition.. after the SW AZEQ6 there is big gap to the next level of better mounts - which cost roughly $10k - and transportability becomes a real issue.
Thanks - looks like I need to focus on getting the right mount and then worry about the OTA, with Startrek's comments about all the gear needed to do astro-imaging on board. Its not just about the OTA. Obviously I can't just keep driving up the budget, so I'll take a look at the EQ6 as my upper limit and work from there.
I have both the ED80 and the 127 Mak. The Mak handily wins for viewing planets but it's focal length is relatively long and I don't find it as good as the ED80 for deep sky. The ED80 also wins for photography (being much faster) and is a handy daytime birding scope too. If I could only keep one, it would be the ED80.
Rather than spend extra on a goto for a dob, you could mark out 360 degrees on the base and have an adjustable pointer to make it a push-to. For altitude, either a protractor or digital inclinometer will work. I have this setup on a bunch of home made alt-az mounts and with sky safari on the ipad, I can find things pretty quick. Or just star hop using sky safari (or similar) and a red dot finder - for my money, goto's take half the fun out of finding stuff - not to mention all the grinding sounds they make!
