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Old 13-04-2019, 07:25 AM
benklerk
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Mono full frame

Im starting to look at my new camera, I'm set on getting a camera with the KAF-16803 sensor. I noticed that ZWO will be bringing out a full frame mono camera.

What are people thoughts on the new full frame cmos chips compared to the KAF-16803?

I'm planning on doing both Astro and minor body work.

I do know both CCD and CMOS have their pros and cons, its just should I wait or nothing at this moment beats the KAF-16803 chip.
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Old 13-04-2019, 07:45 AM
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Atmos (Colin)
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The GSENSE-4040 chip beats the KAF-16803 in every sense as far as I’m aware. Both FLI and QHY have them currently in production.

The new ones that are coming out are Sony chips so they’ll have smaller pixels BUT they’re also not estimated to hit the market until mid/late 2020.
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Old 13-04-2019, 09:01 AM
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Hi Atmos

The reason I'm not looking at the GSENSE-4040 chip is, its over double the cost that im planning on spending. At over $30,000 from bintel they are too expensive. I might get one when they are under $10k.
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Old 13-04-2019, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atmos View Post
The GSENSE-4040 chip beats the KAF-16803 in every sense as far as Iím aware. Both FLI and QHY have them currently in production.

The new ones that are coming out are Sony chips so theyíll have smaller pixels BUT theyíre also not estimated to hit the market until mid/late 2020.
I would be cautious about spending big on Sony IMX type chips, given the AMP glow and difficulty in evenly cooling back lit chips. Or maybe I shouild say, don't be an early adopter.
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Old 13-04-2019, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benklerk View Post
Hi Atmos

The reason I'm not looking at the GSENSE-4040 chip is, its over double the cost that im planning on spending. At over $30,000 from bintel they are too expensive. I might get one when they are under $10k.
This is the only real comparison chip out there to the KAF-16803 but you are right, it is significantly more expensive but you are getting a better chip in every respect.

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I would be cautious about spending big on Sony IMX type chips, given the AMP glow and difficulty in evenly cooling back lit chips. Or maybe I shouild say, don't be an early adopter.
From what I've seen the GSENSE-4040 and 6060 chips don't have any AMP glow issues. I'm also inclined to believe that none of the new Sony ones will either as most of the smaller Sony sensors that are suffering for AMP glow are designed for different applications than what they're being used for in the astro community. Being large security applications where the exposures are never long enough for AMP glow to show up.

You are right though, best not being one of the early adopters
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Old 13-04-2019, 12:07 PM
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Ben, I would wait and see on the full frame front. Until now, the CMOS onslaught has mostly been fought on the smaller chip front, but the IMX455 looks very promising.

All CMOS chips with on-chip amplifiers suffer from amp glow, itís just that some calibrate out better than others. The Panasonic chip in the 1600 cameras calibrates as perfectly as Iíve seen (not that that counts for much!).

The other advantages to CMOS are the (generally) higher QE and lower read noise. Thermal noise is almost non-existent on the more recent chips.

Then the IMX455 comes in with all of Sonyís recent technological leaps providing deep wells and full 16-bit ADC. All eyes are on this beast
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Old 13-04-2019, 12:55 PM
glend (Glen)
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I was just reading about the Nikon D6, which might be using the IMX455, now shipping to pro photographers. It is suppose to be released in time for the 2020 Olympics where Nikon will be a sponsor.
The hybrid chip version for these colour DSLRs, which also give it 8K video capture, will have in chip auto focusing using phase and contrast matching. I gather that there are extra pixels fabricated in the chips which are used by the software to match for focusing drive purposes.

http://thenewcamera.com/tag/nikon-d6/

Of course, a mono version for AP might be without all that extra stuff, hopefully. Although a D6 with an output port to drive a telescope focus motor could be very nice. And could they produce a cooled version too please.
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Old 14-04-2019, 10:33 AM
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Gsense 4040 only has 40K electron wells. 16803 has 105,000. I don't recall the last time my 16803 blew out even quite bright stars in 10 minutes.
I rate well depth quite highly having had troubles in the past with small welled cameras. 40K is quite a bit though but compared to 105,000 its not impressive. Its main advantage is low read noise. My 16803 is very low noise so not sure what that would equate to in an image. The ability to take short exposures and stack I suppose. Not much of an advantage and tons of huge files to process. 16803 files at 10 minutes long or more are bad enough for processing power.

What other issues it may have time will tell. It may have none. Who knows I don't even know there are any sample images around yet.

So its definitely not better in all ways. Also Chinese made and new to the market. Whoa, I would not be an early adopter. It may be great but it has to prove itself. Amp glow would be one area to make its good.

16803 is proven and reliable. Sure it may get superceded at some point in the future but just not for a while yet.

As far as the price well that's just silly as Sony full frame BSI copper wired super refined cutting edge sensors are not at any risk from a Chinese sensor maker just yet.

Greg.
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Old 14-04-2019, 11:01 AM
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According to FLI the GSENSE-4040 has a 70k well depth and a RN of 3.7e- which gives 14.2 stops of DR. The KAF-16803 has 8e-? That would make 13.68 stops of DR.

It has a higher QE, near instantaneous download times, higher dynamic range but is more expensive for that privilege.
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