#61  
Old 08-03-2012, 08:34 PM
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philiphart (Phil Hart)
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Phil,

I've never been disappointed with /any/ of the Canon gear that I have bought or owned. I don't think this baby is going to disappoint, either.

I take my gear for what it is; a tool designed to do a job. Ilike having the latest and greatest, though. Will it make me abetter photographer? I doubt it. Will it allow me to make better photographs? Possibly. Will ISO-6400 or ISO-25,600 allow me to get shots that I previously would not have dreamed of taking, even if I end up converting them to black and white? You bet!

DPP now has a state of the art Digital Lens Optimizer module, too, by the way.

H
H.. i know for sure you know how to use your gear (and DPP)! and i know we'll both be *very* happy with our mkIIIs when we get them.

i'm just getting frustrated by an astrophotography community that knows a heck of a lot about sensor performance placing so much importance on what ISO settings the manufacturers (any of them) claim their cameras are capable of without any reference to what's going on under the hood to support their claims.

to improve the real performance of the sensor.. you've got to improve the signal or the noise. compared to the 10Ds and the STL11000s of ten years ago, sensors have come a long way. but there's so little left to gain now.. in the current crop of cameras most of the apparent gain is in clever noise smoothing algorithms. canon specifically only make the two stop claim about the JPGs for that reason.

for anybody interested in low light performance above all else.. look up 'shot noise' and buy your camera based on pixel size not ISO ratings..

Phil
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  #62  
Old 08-03-2012, 08:41 PM
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No problem Phil....I gave a presentation on CMOS vs CCD at CWAS
(now there's a few acronyms ) a few years ago.

There are a few other hallmarks of CMOS design...their complex architecture often shows us as weird off-axis diffraction spikes with point sources (i.e. stars)...& I see back illuminated CMOS are now coming on line to mittigate this as well as improve QE

However, pixel to pixel read-up variation has always been the bane of CMOS design.

Canon may now have tackled this at a wafer fabrication level, rather than calibration look-up tables, as well as using a full field micro-lens to achieve a few Db gain with similar noise reduction.

In short, I don't think it's all smoke and mirrors.
I remember the presentation.. I was there . Really appreciate the insights though.. it's exactly the kind of information/discussion i was looking for. it's more than smoke and mirrors, but my bet is still on though.. it's not two stops of improved sensor performance either!

Phil
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  #63  
Old 08-03-2012, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by philiphart View Post

for anybody interested in low light performance above all else.. look up 'shot noise' and buy your camera based on pixel size not ISO ratings..

Phil
Oh dear.... now you've awakened the nerd in me.

Shot noise is but one of many noise sources

Janesick (2001) lists many sources of on chip noise, and in rough order of importance they are:

Dark Current
  • Electon and hole combinations
  • Generation/recombination
  • Depletion dark current
  • Diffusion dark current
  • Substrate dark current
  • Surface dark current
  • Backside dark current

Dark Shot noise

Spurious charge

Fat-Zero

Transfer noise

Residual image etc. etc.

Shot noise is important, but dark current mitigation is paramount. Who knows? One day we may see cooled DSLR's ! (but I think we'll see a second Sydney airport first)

Will this inhibit me from getting a MKIII ? Hahhh! Picking one up at the end of the month
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  #64  
Old 08-03-2012, 10:18 PM
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You would think these camera makers must be close to hitting a wall. But they do seem to improve with each model mostly.
Mirrorless models seem to be taking a chunk out of DSLR sales so I hope this style of camera has a long term future.
Perhaps we are seeing the golden years of the DSLR with the 5D mark iii and the Nikon D800, both seem to be superlative cameras.
There may not be a lot of room left in developing the same approach without going larger and larger and take over the medium format market and make it mainstream. It happened in astrophotography with the 16803 chip its almost medium format size. Chip prices will no doubt become lower and what is a huge expensive chip today may end up the focuser sensor in 15 years time!

Either way it seems to be an exciting time for regular photography with these 2 awesome cameras.

The other easy improvement would be to do what Kodak did with creating their own matrix based on LRGB rather than Bayer RGGB.
Those Kodak CCDs using that matrix seem to have almost double the QE of Bayer matrix type one shot colour sensors.

But I suppose Kodak owns that patent. Its pretty likely though that they would sell it!

Another point with these high ISO sample images, not that I doubt the cameras are good, but I wonder how many are taken on a cold winters day?

As many here would know DSLRs are much cleaner in winter than in summer as typically in CCDs dark current doubles with every 6C increase in temp and vice versa. Its northern hemisphere winter at the moment. They don't list the ambient air temp at the time of the shot.

Greg.

Last edited by gregbradley; 08-03-2012 at 10:52 PM.
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  #65  
Old 08-03-2012, 11:09 PM
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Hi Greg,

The EXIF information in the official samples is still in tact (at least in the Canon ones I've pored over). You can check out when the images were made. A lot of them were late taken in 2011.

H
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  #66  
Old 09-03-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Ward View Post
Oh dear.... now you've awakened the nerd in me.

Shot noise is but one of many noise sources
I realised after my post that I should have clarified that I am primarily interested in and talking about short exposure night sky scene images.. ie. images up to about 30 seconds long, both as stand alone images and for timelapse sequences. I think shot noise then dominates in single short exposures right?

Once you start talking long, multiple exposures then for sure everything else becomes far more significant and cooling the DSLR becomes hugely important.

Phil
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  #67  
Old 09-03-2012, 08:07 AM
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Hi Greg,

The EXIF information in the official samples is still in tact (at least in the Canon ones I've pored over). You can check out when the images were made. A lot of them were late taken in 2011.

H
I am sure Nikon is the same. They both want to put their best foot forward. Later 2011 would be cold in a lot of northern hemisphere locations.

So don't expect the same results in a hot Aussie summer but then you already know that. If the starting point is higher to start with you're still better off.

Greg.
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  #68  
Old 09-03-2012, 10:27 AM
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Admittedly, I don't do long exposure timelapse stuff so it really isn't going to be an issue for me.

Furthermore, I've had in-camera noise reduction and high ISO noise reduction enabled since day dot. It makes a massive difference.

H
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  #69  
Old 09-03-2012, 03:40 PM
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Here is a good comparison. It doesn't have the Nikon D800 though.

Scroll down about halfway down for the comparison images.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...-5d-mkiiiA.HTM

More importantly it shows 5D mark ii versus 5D mark iii up to ISO3200.

It makes it seem though that there isn't a massive difference whereas I saw another high ISO comparison where the 5D mark iii had clean images at ISO12600 which would be extremely useful for astro landscapes/time lapse.

Whatever the improvement in noise, its still going to be the better camera against the earlier model. Just how much better is for you to decide based on your needs for a camera.

Greg.
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  #70  
Old 09-03-2012, 05:28 PM
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It's been an expensive week. iPad 3 + 4G, and, the 5D Mark III. eep.

I can't wait, though.

H
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  #71  
Old 09-03-2012, 06:32 PM
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I thought the iPad 3 was incompatible with our 4G network?
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  #72  
Old 09-03-2012, 06:36 PM
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Simon,

It is incompatible. But, should still be able to use 3G. I don't have an existing iPad and have been waiting for the retina display to make its way to the device. It's now there. Yay.

H
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  #73  
Old 09-03-2012, 06:36 PM
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I thought the iPad 3 was incompatible with our 4G network?
That's what was said on the tv so far.
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  #74  
Old 09-03-2012, 06:44 PM
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Yeah, of course it'll work on 3G. Just annoying to have the capability and not be able to use it to its potential I guess.
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  #75  
Old 10-03-2012, 08:56 AM
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On DLO:

"EOS 5D Mark III: Digital Lens Optimizer in DPP v3.11
The EOS 5D Mark III comes with Canon Digital Photo Professional (DPP) v3.11 software to enable high-speed, high quality processing of RAW images. DPP v3.11 includes a new Digital Lens Optimizer (DLO) tool that is designed to improve image resolution. DLO imitates lens performance, with a series of mathematical functions replicating each stage of the journey of light through the optical path. Using this information DLO can correct a range of typical optical aberrations and loss of resolution caused by a camera’s low pass filter, by applying an inverse function to each shot to take the image nearer to how the scene appears to the naked eye. This creates detailed, high-quality images with manageable file sizes, providing photographers with maximum image quality and greater flexibility."

w00t w00t. 3.11.4 is current; I'm assuming it will ship in 3.11.5.

Making the best, even better.

H
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  #76  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:10 AM
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Your not a Canon fanboy are u H ?
Think i'll just wait till u test it before i tread these waters, but it does sound good for our canon stuff hey.
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  #77  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:34 AM
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I guess I am a fanboy. I don't mind admitting it.

I'm getting more and more excited at the possibilities. While the simple 9-point AF system has done me well for over 3 years, now, the new pro 1DX AF system (in a cheaper body) really has me chomping at the bit. And, the extra high ISO performance (even if it is a single stop) is very welcome.

If you go through my threads started/posting history in the terrestrial forum, you'll see that every single one of those landscape images was made with the 5D Mark II. I feel that if I was getting those types of results with that camera, then, this one will deliver as equally as well.

As photographers, on either side of the brand divide, I don't think we've ever had it so good.

H
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  #78  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:28 PM
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I agree H. I wonder if these 2 new high end cameras 5D mark iii and Nikon D800 have hit a pinacle of development of the DSLR in its current format and to improve significantly rather than meaningless little tartups it will need to go into the Medium Format territory.

Some reviews pit the Nikon D800 as close to medium format quality. At least the lower end of that category. The 5D mark iii main improvement would appear to be low light capability and autofocus. How good the D800 low light ability performance is yet to be confirmed but appears to be no slouch either. So either will be awesome.

If the 5D mk 3 is as good as it sounds I may end up getting both! But the D800 for sure. 36mp for $3000 is a no brainer. Low light performance is also very appealling for our type of photography.

Greg.
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
I agree H. I wonder if these 2 new high end cameras 5D mark iii and Nikon D800 have hit a pinacle of development of the DSLR in its current format and to improve significantly rather than meaningless little tartups it will need to go into the Medium Format territory.

Some reviews pit the Nikon D800 as close to medium format quality. At least the lower end of that category. The 5D mark iii main improvement would appear to be low light capability and autofocus. How good the D800 low light ability performance is yet to be confirmed but appears to be no slouch either. So either will be awesome.

If the 5D mk 3 is as good as it sounds I may end up getting both! But the D800 for sure. 36mp for $3000 is a no brainer. Low light performance is also very appealling for our type of photography.

Greg.
Pinnacle?, really?? isn't QE on DSLRs still woefull? (something like 15%).I would have thought the pinnacle would be something close to 100%. Now that would be a serious improvement.
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  #80  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:34 PM
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Pinnacle?, really?? isn't QE on DSLRs still woefull? (something like 15%).I would have thought the pinnacle would be something close to 100%. Now that would be a serious improvement.
now then Fred.. are you falling for the mono sensor propaganda!?

it's only 15% after some fairly pointless geometric scaling factors used in this highly referenced article: http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/50d/test.htm (which otherwise has some nice test data).

real QE is not so bad at all compared to other (CMOS) colour sensors.

Phi
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