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  #21  
Old 28-01-2020, 03:09 PM
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Solar (Ralph Smith)
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Hi again, thanks for all the positive comments, appreciate the remarks.



Thanks Ralph, don't you notice rotation of the planets with such a long capture time? From what I've seen elsewhere online, the standard wisdom appears to be 3 minutes for Jupiter and 5 minutes for Saturn. Any longer than that and you have to start de-rotating the stacked frames in WinJupos (which I used to do when I was using my DSLR on the planets and only able to record at 20 fps).

Andrew
To my mind 3 and 5 minutes are too long to capture without getting rotational smearing. Guess everyone is different. For Jupiter I use 90 sec captures and usually take 10 sets in run. Saturn normally is 120 seconds and 20 captures per run. Each capture is part processed and the the sets de-rotated in WinJupos. Once you get use to the measuring system in WinJupos it is pretty quick. About 10 minutes for 20 captures of Saturn.
If seeing changes during the session you can extend or stop and use part of the data collected. This image of Saturn was stopped short at 10 sets due to cloud.
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  #22  
Old 28-01-2020, 03:43 PM
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Tulloch (Andrew)
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To my mind 3 and 5 minutes are too long to capture without getting rotational smearing. Guess everyone is different. For Jupiter I use 90 sec captures and usually take 10 sets in run. Saturn normally is 120 seconds and 20 captures per run. Each capture is part processed and the the sets de-rotated in WinJupos. Once you get use to the measuring system in WinJupos it is pretty quick. About 10 minutes for 20 captures of Saturn.
If seeing changes during the session you can extend or stop and use part of the data collected. This image of Saturn was stopped short at 10 sets due to cloud.
Nice one Ralph, what sized aperture scope was this taken with?

I got my timings from Darryl (aka Kokatha Man) who normally frequents Cloudy Nights, his images of the planets are amongst the best I've seen from an earth based telescope (although your Saturn is right up there ). He uses a 14" SCT and his website is here .

I guess that whatever works for you the correct answer on how long to capture for, there's no doubt that your result is first rate. Could you share a little more on your capture technique, eg camera used, scope etc?

I took about 5x5 minute captures of Saturn on the night I took this one, so I guess I could go back and re-process all of these videos, de-rotate them in WJ and see what difference there is. I could also split each of them up into 10 x 150 sec videos and do the same thing .

It's probably worth doing just as practice for next season, I thought my WJ days were past me, but if there's extra detail to be had ...

Thanks again, Andrew
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  #23  
Old 28-01-2020, 04:39 PM
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Solar (Ralph Smith)
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Nice one Ralph, what sized aperture scope was this taken with?

I got my timings from Darryl (aka Kokatha Man) who normally frequents Cloudy Nights, his images of the planets are amongst the best I've seen from an earth based telescope (although your Saturn is right up there ). He uses a 14" SCT and his website is here .

I guess that whatever works for you the correct answer on how long to capture for, there's no doubt that your result is first rate. Could you share a little more on your capture technique, eg camera used, scope etc?

I took about 5x5 minute captures of Saturn on the night I took this one, so I guess I could go back and re-process all of these videos, de-rotate them in WJ and see what difference there is. I could also split each of them up into 10 x 150 sec videos and do the same thing .

It's probably worth doing just as practice for next season, I thought my WJ days were past me, but if there's extra detail to be had ...

Thanks again, Andrew
It is well worth persisting with WJ. It is the only thing that makes imaging possible here because of the seeing. I use a Meade 12inch. Data is acquired with FireCapture. Then to AS3 next is WinJupos, on to RegiStax6 and finish with PS6. I have really only be serious about planetary for two years and look forward to this season. Really only looked at solar before that.
web is www.eyesonthesun.com.au
The first shot of Jupiter is with ASI 224MC and the second with ASI 290MC.
Seeing was only average both, hence the value WJ. BTW seeing was no better for the Saturn shot either.
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  #24  
Old 28-01-2020, 06:44 PM
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Thanks for the info, the extra aperture sure helps get the detail. I've seen others talk about the improvements WJ can give with stacking multiple sessions (for instance see this link here ), but I was afraid of making it worse by getting the time or orientation wrong. Being on an altaz mount makes it more difficult (as I'm sure you know well) since the orientation of the planet is not constant.

The change in colour balance between the two cameras is interesting, how do you choose the final balance?

But it sounds like it's worth another try with WJ.

Andrew
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  #25  
Old 29-01-2020, 09:41 AM
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Solar (Ralph Smith)
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Originally Posted by Tulloch View Post
Thanks for the info, the extra aperture sure helps get the detail. I've seen others talk about the improvements WJ can give with stacking multiple sessions (for instance see this link here ), but I was afraid of making it worse by getting the time or orientation wrong. Being on an altaz mount makes it more difficult (as I'm sure you know well) since the orientation of the planet is not constant.

The change in colour balance between the two cameras is interesting, how do you choose the final balance?

But it sounds like it's worth another try with WJ.

Andrew
I didn't realise that it was a fork mount (ataz).
Have not tried that setup for long capture process. If you use FireCapture it will save the correct times for use in WJ. Just tick that box in the settings.
Try it and see but not sure WJ corrects for field rotation. Someone will know.
It is easy to put a wedge on it. My 12inch was an altaz as well and the electronics died so I put it on an EQ6 Pro for that reason.
Yes the colour difference between the two cameras is quite different. I used the 290mc most of the time last season and really just developed my own colour scheme in PS CS6 that why the big difference.
There are many things that go together to make an image standout. Each of them playing there part and each as important as the one before and after.
It took awhile for the silk purse syndrome to sink in to my thick head. That is, it does not mater how good your gears is, your processing or any other slight of hand one thinks they have, if the SEEING is poor or anyway below average then alas so will be the results.
Let me know how you go.
Cheers,
Ralph.
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  #26  
Old 29-01-2020, 01:59 PM
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Hi again, WJ will correct for field rotation if you tell it to, but I've only used it on the raw videos. In fact, I used it extensively to remove the field rotation from all my videos when I was using my Canon DSLR to take images of the planets, Jupiter and Saturn both took about 10 minutes of capture time at 20 fps so I could get enough frames. The frame rate of the ASI224MC is obviously much faster but it requires more frames as the noise levels are higher.

The difficulty I have found is making sure the 10 or so stacked images out of AS!3 line up perfectly with each other (and are not field rotated). If the stacked images are not perfectly aligned, I'll end up making the final image worse. When I was using my DSLR, there was always a moon or two in the frame for precise alignment in the case of Jupiter, Saturn should be easier with its rings but it doesn't take much to be out of alignment.

Maybe I can combine the stacked frames into a new "video" using PIPP, and let WJ undo the field rotation on that. I'll see what it can do.

Thanks, Andrew
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  #27  
Old 29-01-2020, 04:03 PM
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Solar (Ralph Smith)
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Originally Posted by Tulloch View Post
Hi again, WJ will correct for field rotation if you tell it to, but I've only used it on the raw videos. In fact, I used it extensively to remove the field rotation from all my videos when I was using my Canon DSLR to take images of the planets, Jupiter and Saturn both took about 10 minutes of capture time at 20 fps so I could get enough frames. The frame rate of the ASI224MC is obviously much faster but it requires more frames as the noise levels are higher.

The difficulty I have found is making sure the 10 or so stacked images out of AS!3 line up perfectly with each other (and are not field rotated). If the stacked images are not perfectly aligned, I'll end up making the final image worse. When I was using my DSLR, there was always a moon or two in the frame for precise alignment in the case of Jupiter, Saturn should be easier with its rings but it doesn't take much to be out of alignment.

Maybe I can combine the stacked frames into a new "video" using PIPP, and let WJ undo the field rotation on that. I'll see what it can do.

Thanks, Andrew
Hi Andrew,
Where there is a will there's a way.
There are often very reasonable EQ5 and EQ6 come up as well.
I am interested to see how you manage the field rotation.
This image is 12 minutes and seeing 8/10.Same gear and processing just better conditions.
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  #28  
Old 29-01-2020, 04:55 PM
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Tulloch (Andrew)
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Hi Andrew,
Where there is a will there's a way.
There are often very reasonable EQ5 and EQ6 come up as well.
I am interested to see how you manage the field rotation.
This image is 12 minutes and seeing 8/10.Same gear and processing just better conditions.
Brilliant image, great detail.

I'm trying to limit the amount I'm spending on this "hobby" atm, so I'll keep going with the altaz Evolution mount .

If you are interested, Christophe Pellier wrote a nice piece about using WJ to remove field rotation, the process is very CPU intensive. AS!3 has a form of it as an "experimental" feature, but apparently it doesn't work as well...

https://www.planetary-astronomy-and-...zimuth-dobson/

Andrew
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  #29  
Old 30-01-2020, 07:42 PM
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Hi Andrew,
Where there is a will there's a way.
...
I am interested to see how you manage the field rotation.
Well, I tried everything I could think of to combine the 5 videos I took that night in WJ. I stacked them all, went through the image measurement process and tried adding them together in multiple configurations and every combination I tried came out worse than the individual video on its own.

That being said, 3 out of the 5 are high quality sets, but combining them together did not give me a better result.

Andrew
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  #30  
Old 31-01-2020, 03:01 PM
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Solar (Ralph Smith)
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Well, I tried everything I could think of to combine the 5 videos I took that night in WJ. I stacked them all, went through the image measurement process and tried adding them together in multiple configurations and every combination I tried came out worse than the individual video on its own.

That being said, 3 out of the 5 are high quality sets, but combining them together did not give me a better result.

Andrew
Keep them. You never know when new processing methods come up.
If you want, put then on a stick and send them to me and I will try and sort them. If successful I will put together a tutorial on what I did for you. Cant hurt to try. In the mean time I will have a study of the link you sent.

Cheers
Ralph.
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