#21  
Old 20-04-2015, 06:46 AM
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Read noise is less than 1.5 electrons. Well depth is 20,000K. Small but not much smaller than KAF8300 which is 20-25.5K well depth.
Dynamic Range is a massive 76db well above any Kodak sensor which are typically 64-66db.


Greg.
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  #22  
Old 20-04-2015, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
Read noise is less than 1.5 electrons. Well depth is 20,000K. Small but not much smaller than KAF8300 which is 20-25.5K well depth.
Dynamic Range is a massive 76db well above any Kodak sensor which are typically 64-66db.


Greg.
We must be reading a different spec sheet. See attached from Raptor's datasheet. 12,000 well depth, and read noise less than 7e-
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Old 20-04-2015, 04:46 PM
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Yes I was referring to the Kingfisher V sheet. This is the earlier model isn't it?

Also I think they are careless in their spec sheet as the 2 sensors should have different well depths.

7 electrons seems worse than every other user of the same sensors. Also SX gets 17,000 electrons well depth. I wonder if these guys even measure their full well depth. Surely it can't be that different.

Starlight Express get read noise of 4-5 electrons on the smaller ICX674 chip and 5 on the larger ICX694.

http://www.sxccd.com/trius-sx674

As you say not necessarily good specs or bang for your buck here. The Kingfisher V seems a lot better. But as you say there's more to cameras than a spec sheet, software compatibility, AO units, adapters, accessories would make it a difficult beast not to mention no resale value.

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Old 20-04-2015, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
Yes I was referring to the Kingfisher V sheet. This is the earlier model isn't it?


Greg.
I didn't think so...as it's what popped up when I clicked on the Kingfisher V spec link...but would be happy if this was proved wrong, as it looks very interesting.

P.S. I think a 1.5e- *read* noise is very unlikely...but hey, as I said, would be happy to see a big improvement from any manufacturer here.
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Old 20-04-2015, 06:23 PM
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I think this one might be good on the Alluna:

http://www.raptorphotonics.com/cms/uploads/Eagle-V.pdf

Greg.
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Old 20-04-2015, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
Yes I was referring to the Kingfisher V sheet. This is the earlier model isn't it?
Correct... to my understanding, the original Kingfisher was designed for low light video surveillance so necessitated a high readout rate with the associated noise. The Kingfisher V is a different beast altogether and has the option of a fast (noisy) readout rate, or the 1.5e- noise level appropriate for microscopy and astronomy. Peter, I believe, has referenced the spec sheet for the older camera.

Quote:
Also I think they are careless in their spec sheet as the 2 sensors should have different well depths.
Indeed... but by the same token, D-111C cooling and 1.5e- noise levels are a profound game changer for narrow band imaging. Frankly, I am stunned that Peter is not seeing the opportunity here.
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Old 20-04-2015, 08:18 PM
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Indeed... but by the same token, D-111C cooling and 1.5e- noise levels are a profound game changer for narrow band imaging. Frankly, I am stunned that Peter is not seeing the opportunity here.
Not at all...I'm simply finding it difficult to find a data sheet at Raptor to verify the *very* impressive specs.

In fact, I have already tried to contact Raptor to obtain a test camera ($6K from my own pocket is not exactly chump-change)...but am unlikely to spend that sort of sum based only on rumor.

Hope that clears up my thinking

P.S.
So far, Raptor have not got back to me.
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Old 20-04-2015, 08:41 PM
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Took some digging...(data sheet attached)...Greg was indeed correct

Raptor V claimed specs are impressive! ....but it also seems a S.A. based company already has distribution rights.

I have no idea what the (Oz) price tag is.... anyone know for sure what a usable package (camera/capture card/cable/software) goes for???
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Old 21-04-2015, 08:07 AM
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From Andrew Jane.

Quote:
Hi Clive,


I managed to contact our office and the Kingfisher V retails for USD $6,781 (RGB) and USD $5892 (Monochrome). It is therefore slightly more expensive than the FLI Microline icx694ALG and does require water cooling, however as you are already aware it offers far lower readout noise. The current exchange rate is not very favourable, 1 AUD = 0.74 USD, so for the RGB model you would be looking at ~ AUD $9160 excl. GST.

I hope that this still fits within your budget. As an early adopter I can offer a 5% discount when I send through the official quotation on Wednesday.


Kind Regards,

Andrew






----------

Andrew Jane, PhD

Spectroscopy Applications Scientist

Lastek Pty Ltd
(08) 8443 8668

andrew.jane@lastek.com.au
http://www.lastek.com.au/
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  #30  
Old 21-04-2015, 09:03 AM
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Sadly, despite all the excitement, it seems much ado about nothing.

I received an email from Raptor Photonics this morning.

The Kingfisher V was a non-starter.

To directly quote Raptor....

"Unfortunately the Kingfisher V never made it into production, there are a few different reasons for this but the main factor was Sony pulling out of the CCD market"

Last edited by Peter Ward; 21-04-2015 at 11:05 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 21-04-2015, 09:28 AM
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That's such a shame... I really hope that Sony sells their CCD division or at least the ex-view technology.

I doubt it is going to be cheap, but the Eagle camera with the E2V chip in it looks like an absolute belter as well. 2.3e- readout noise and 1e- of thermal noise every 3 hours. When you factor in the relative QE at the emission line wavelengths, it is every bit the equal of the Sony chip wrt signal to noise.
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  #32  
Old 21-04-2015, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
I think this one might be good on the Alluna:

http://www.raptorphotonics.com/cms/uploads/Eagle-V.pdf

Greg.
fwiw) An FLI Proline with the same chip (E2V CCD42-40) comes in at US$39k (Aus$60K)
They do a smaller version 1024x1024 @13um for US$17k

These are all grade1 spec.



Incidentally, whilst we are dreaming
check out the QE curve for the 2048B_eXcelen Deep Depletion (bottom red curve)
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Old 21-04-2015, 01:39 PM
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This camera (Kingfisher V) would be a massive overkill...IMHO of course

Why would you cool Sony's clean CCD, that inherently has a very low dark current in 'regular' astro cameras (Atik, QSI, SX), to over 110 C below ambient? Unless of course such low temperature, apart from evaporating already negligibly small dark current, does some other nice tricks to Sony's CCD?
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Old 21-04-2015, 05:28 PM
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FYI Lastek's price on the 4K E2V chipped Eagle V (camera/cables/software etc.

$A87,900

I can take orders now.

An IIS group-buy discount is available.

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Old 21-04-2015, 05:34 PM
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Which serves to illustrate the value of the recently deceased Kingfisher V.
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Old 21-04-2015, 05:39 PM
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Hmmmm with those prices it's actually cheaper to just get a bigger telescope+mount+dome...more so if your camera then spits the dummy.
EB
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Old 21-04-2015, 05:48 PM
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I got a reply from Raptor Photonics as well. $79,216 for the Eagle V 4mp large format sensor camera and $14,400 for the Kingfisher including some software and some other accessories.

The Kingfisher with icx 694 (6mp) 7 electrons read noise and listed smaller well depth (I think its just an error) its not even matching Starlight Express, QSI, Atik, FLI or QHY for performance. Plus you use your regular software. They typically are less than 5 electrons read noise and 20K well depth for the ICX694.

The Eagle V though is a pretty impressive piece of gear that would be hard to match. Unless you pay $79K only to find the fixed pattern noise of the back illuminated sensor is hard to flat field out.

As an aside I see back illuminated CMOS sensors as commonplace (my Samsung Galaxy 6 Edge has one). I don't know why its still a big deal in CCDworld. Maybe because the CCD sensors tend to be a lot larger.

Perhaps an sCMOS sensor in an astro camera may happen in the near future?

Greg.
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Old 21-04-2015, 06:32 PM
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The merit function becomes compelling (for the Eagle V) for instruments around the 0.8m aperture mark.
Arguably, pie in the sky for now, but I think it is fair to say that it isn't completely the stuff of fantasy.

Segue- nostalgia
Going through some old stuff in the shed a few days ago, I came across my old copy of David Malin's seminal work 'colour of the stars'
I was mildly amused to note that his best images are routinely surpassed by amateurs with modern equipment today.

I expect the trend going forward will be consistent with the past.

Last edited by clive milne; 21-04-2015 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 21-04-2015, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clive milne View Post

Segue- nostalgia
Going through some old stuff in the shed a few days ago, I came accross my old copy of David Malin's seminal work 'colour of the stars'
I was mildly amused to note that his best images are routinely surpassed by amateurs with modern equipment today.
Always the gentleman, David candidly admits in conversation this is indeed the case....but given the technology today...hardly surprising.

Yet his eye for a fine image & details within is as keen as ever...sometimes a bit too keen!
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