Galileo's restoration

[GeoffW1 (Geoff)]

Hi,

In 1835 Galileo's Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems was removed from the Vatican's Index of banned books, and in 1979 Pope John Paul admitted that the Catholic Church had erred.

Now it is proposed that a statue of the great man be erected within the Vatican walls. I've visited his tomb in Florence, very impressed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle3478943.ece

Cheers

[avandonk]

It was a time when ignorant religous idiots thought that they knew everything. It has taken these same twits to work out they were wrong.How long?

Four hundred years.

The reality was they knew Galileo was quite correct. Their greatest fear was losing power over the fact they were shown to be wrong on one simple dogma and that means they could be wrong on the blood_y lot!

Science has nothing to add to any god. The real problem is when any religion or superstitious belief tries to negate any science. I say put up or shut up and will never resile from that position.

What do these god botherers have to fear. The simple truth?

I forgot to say that when Galileo was shown the instruments of torture he wisely recanted.

Great way to keep the faith hey?

Bert

[avandonk]

For those of you that don't know he was the first to see Jupiters moons in a rudimentary telescope. The dogma then was that everything revolved about the Earth on glass spheres. This proved we were special and at the center of the Universe and gods own children etc.

So how could objects revolve around a planet on these perfect glass spheres?

Their cosmology was intrinsically tied to their religion. That leads to closed minds and a path to ignorance.

I am sure that my own level of science will seem just as ignorant to future generations. But at least I don't torture my students if they do not believe me.

Bert

[Nevyn]

For anyone interested in "simple truth"! http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1625
For anyone who cares, Galileo found himself in trouble for disobeying a Papal decree and not for criticising/contradicting the Bible!

[Suzy_A]

Galileo is said to have said that "The Bible tells us how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go."

He was charged with "A vehement suspicion of Heresy", which is Vatico-speak means, as Nevyn wrote, disobeying a Papal decree. He was never charged or found guilty of heresy.

The Catholic Church knew he was right, but waht he said potentially threatened their power and wealth, as the CC and the Vat was at the 'centre' of the Universe.

[Dujon]

Susan, the quotation is often placed at Galileo's door but, from my reading, should be attributed to a Cardinal Baronis and read "Scripture teaches how to go . . . ". Don't worry, tis but a minor matter. What is (or wasn't) a minor matter was that at the time of Galileo's self aggrandisement within the corridors of power, 'the church' had kept itself apart from scientific pondering and, officially at any rate, expressed no view on the various theories of the universe (Ptolemaic, Arestotalian, Copernican or otherwise). Somehow or other Galileo managed to change that.

It seems that Galileo was a great believer in 'the church' and, possibly because of that, wished it to accept his own views and include them in its credo. The odd thing is that he managed to get the current Pope offside. That Pope was Urban VIII, previously Cardinal Barberini, a man with whom Galileo had been friends and often sat and discussed all things deep and meaningful. Why this relationship changed I have no idea.

Galileo's downfall seems to come from something of a 'kangaroo court' hearing. Even though his writings had been examined time and time again - and passed by 'the church' censors - he was designated persona non grata and confined to quarters.

It's all well and good to look back on those times and criticise the views and conclusions drawn, whether by the clergy or scientists - but it's unfair to do so. As far as I am concerned it is the same as attacking any theory or postulate expressed today regarding 'dark matter' (which I prefer to call 'the missing mass') or its mate in expansion 'dark energy'.

[GrahamL]

Yes its hard to look back from today to a time when church and state were almost one ..Scientific enquiry was very much part of the Church and Galileo was indeed involved with both at its highest levels ..I wonder if egos and the politics of power were the soul reason he got offside with the powers that be rather than cosmology .?

[Kokatha man]

Originally Posted by Dujon

The odd thing is that he managed to get the current Pope offside. That Pope was Urban VIII, previously Cardinal Barberini, a man with whom Galileo had been friends and often sat and discussed all things deep and meaningful. Why this relationship changed I have no idea.


It's all well and good to look back on those times and criticise the views and conclusions drawn, whether by the clergy or scientists - but it's unfair to do so. As far as I am concerned it is the same as attacking any theory or postulate expressed today regarding 'dark matter' (which I prefer to call 'the missing mass') or its mate in expansion 'dark energy'.

Barberini's personna was well documented from his "modus operandi" regardless of dining soirees. As for criticising "views and conclusions drawn" thank god (no pun intended) that "Mother Church" no longer wields the power as well as the authority of yore - pity those poor heretics under her paw! (maybe a novel way of sorting out "true believers" to any new theories!)

Still, in extremely recent times(relatively) "The Church" did give old G a reprieve of sorts: they do seem to be stumbling their way towards some sort of contemporary accomodations; though critics of their birth control edicts in HIV ravaged countries are somewhat less forgiving! And of course we now have announced some sort of "dialogue" with the world of Islam - albeit that the current "Holy Father" could hardly have sought otherwise after his offensive remarks towards that faith following his "ascent."

But, dragging out the corpses of "martyred" (or just plain tortured/murdered victims of a yore of 500 or more years ago does no benefit, any descendants' class actions would go nowhere: why, even in this land of plenty where people suffered and are still suffering from actions and attitudes often of a past measured at most in small decades, mean-spirited souls begrudge or belittle even token gestures of national contrition; wrapping the smugness of their stances in cloaks of contemptuous criticism and indifference. What a sight a certain Mr Tuckey presented in Federal parliament recently, as he removed and "elevated" himself to an upstairs gallery!

[xelasnave]

The Church? Dark matter? , Dark energy? Mr Tuckey ????

I see nothing here that needs comment...they all just "are" and dont get me going at all...

I like to think however that Mr G provides hope for anyone who feels they are going against the tide... estabilshed norms always jump on anyone who would offer a different view but it is great to see in some cases truth finally has a way of getting thru... MR G is one of my heroes.
alex

[Dujon]

Ah, Kokatha man, I am not to be drawn into some sort of theological discourse on the rights and wrongs of church v state or their relative views and actions (or non-action). I think we should confine any discussion in this thread to science/state/secularity matters pertaining to the heavens (as opposed to heaven).

[xelasnave]

If nothing else astronomy should show us that we are all in heaven (the heavens) and Mr G really was the first to show that exciting situation to the world.
alex

[Kokatha man]

Originally Posted by Dujon

Ah, Kokatha man, I am not to be drawn into some sort of theological discourse on the rights and wrongs of church v state or their relative views and actions (or non-action). I think we should confine any discussion in this thread to science/state/secularity matters pertaining to the heavens (as opposed to heaven).

Dujon's "reply" to my post is interesting to say the least, given GeoffW1's "thread-starter" and the ensuing commentaries; but particularly his own postings!

But I cracked up with that quote of yours' Alex -
The Church? Dark matter? , Dark energy? Mr Tuckey ????
- please don't tell me that your choice of those "entities" from the posts was mere happenstance, I just loved 'em!?! To me they sound like real Star Wars stuff for the good guys to struggle against!

As for Maffeo Berberini (Urban V111) his pre-papal personna (seemingly) underwent a dramatic transformation post-coronation: the Protestant War firing his warrior ambitions - he was by all accounts an arbitrary character full of his own authority who, as one of his contemporaries remarked "rarely convened (the Church's) Congregation of Faith except to cover up certain errors..." remarking that he "knew more than alll the cardinals put together".....and that "the judgement of one living pope was worth more than the maxims of a hundred dead ones...."

Galileo himself is certainly a formidable figure in the history of science: but to me the thing that amazes me were his abilities with a lead pipe and a couple of sad little lenses (one convex, one concave) that make my 10" GSO look like "state-of-art" optics - how he saw that which he did is staggering: maybe he did have some "upstairs" help afterall!

[xelasnave]

The Church? Dark matter? , Dark energy? Mr Tuckey ????

Well in truth each of these just happen to spark a certain negative responce for me... Up here there are a few "Mr Tuckey" types who think they are closer to God than the Pope ... and I feel the Church has been a little arogant with their approach to so many nations around the world.

Dark matter and dark energy well I have differnt views that in my view makes those notions a poor attempt to explain the obvious... that attraction is an unsupported myth which has lead our science up the garden path...

Mr G invented opera glasses it seems and started the best show on Earth.
alex

[omnivorr]

....p'haps.. just p'haps, in 500-odd yrs, the Catholic Enterprise might also relent on condoms.... but I doubt it, unless.. ..no, ..Capitalism "In God We Trust"... til the last ivory tower falls, the flock shall follow the lemming-path the celibate prescribe...

not.

(Hands-up those into astronomy only to get advanced warning to get a front-row seat to the 'Rapture"? ) ....

.....seriously, another tourist-attraction monument? who cares? ..it'll sell a few more gellato in summer, another postcard pic'.. Co-option is the term that comes to mind.. Disneyfurcation.. and exploitation..

location location location!

chips to the gullible.

Cheers
Russ

[Dujon]

[Kokatha Man] Thanks for the additional information regarding Urban VIII as it was detail of which I was unaware. As someone (Oscar Wilde?) once said, "I'm not young enough to know everything".

Regarding my comment relative to yours: Perhaps I was rash in suggesting that your comments in the last part of your post #8 were off subject. Having looked at them again I can see that you (I think) were referring to the intransigence of some to recognise the bleeding obvious.

[Kokatha man]

Spot on, John.

Regards, Darryl.

[avandonk]

No I think think they were scared of losing their own illusive position of power.

Galileo did the unthinkable with the rudimetary because of his very bright open mind.

We should not mix it up with current controversies. The powers that be think they have power and are still at it. Stupid old men that have never known the problems of real life are dictating to the weak and the poor of the third world.
They have given up on the western democracies as their 'word' falls on barren earth.

The yanks have got it almost correct, keep your masses poor and ignorant and the quasi religions can have a field day. Both in raising funds and the ignorance they peddle.

I really sometimes wonder where we have failed! We live in an age of enlightenment that is almost beyond comprehension. Maybe that is the problem!

Bert

[Kokatha man]

Originally Posted by avandonk

No I think think they were scared of losing their own illusive position of power.

Galileo did the unthinkable with the rudimetary because of his very bright open mind.

We should not mix it up with current controversies. The powers that be think they have power and are still at it. Stupid old men that have never known the problems of real life are dictating to the weak and the poor of the third world.
They have given up on the western democracies as their 'word' falls on barren earth.

The yanks have got it almost correct, keep your masses poor and ignorant and the quasi religions can have a field day. Both in raising funds and the ignorance they peddle.

I really sometimes wonder where we have failed! We live in an age of enlightenment that is almost beyond comprehension. Maybe that is the problem!

Bert

Just caught your post Bert as I was about to shut down: felt I needed to comment about your: "scared of losing their own illusive position of power."

Won't argue with anything you say except to note there was nothing "illusive" about their positions of power - "Holy Mother Church" wielded enormous power and influence, particularly leading up to the era in question (also literally waging war on Protestants etc.)

The catholic heirarchy have been the role model for many centuries re retaining power/authority via manifold processes/policies: seemingly managing to control elements within as an(apparent) means of tolerating dissent. (ref. Jesuits et al)

Of course, of late, the pressures to devolve that heirarchical authority (and its' dictates) have been severe: many observers believing the church's response of latter years; whereby ultra-conservatives have stacked the cardinals' (and ultimately papal) positions, ultimately will lead to greater demise of their standing and respect/authority.

Regards, Darryl.

[avandonk]

I agree with everything you say Darryl. I use the word illusory in the sense that Nelson Mandela refered to the apartheit regime in South Africa.

Bert

Real power is when you and yours will stand up to defend what you believe in.

Not because of fear or retribition!

[John Saunders]

Hi folks - interesting reading.

My theory (for what it's worth) is that despite layers of religious varnish, most often the affairs of human beings and decisions they make are driven by notions of power and political advantage. The topic under discussion is one such example.

Religion, if it be true, has nothing to fear from science since ultimately science will confirm the facts of existence within its scope of operation. There are some aspects of faith and belief which science may never be able to neither confirm nor deny, but there well may be some which science can definitively deny as well.

Mr G's problem was that he, as others have stated, challenged the power of the Vatican in the realm of knowledge - and knowledge is power. Power, authority, influence - all these things were at stake in Old Gal's purely scientific discoveries.

Has the church dissolved into a quivering morass because Gallileo was right? No, certainly not. If anything, the wonders of the universe to which he opened our eyes has been an inspiration to the religiously minded.

For the record - I'm a theological student...but don't hold that against me!