ANZAC Day
Go Back   IceInSpace > Beginners Start Here > Beginners Astrophotography
Register FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 08-05-2017, 05:12 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Benjamin (Ben)
Registered User

Benjamin is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Moorooka, Brisbane
Posts: 906
First crack at using StarTools

Using the data I had from recent pics I managed to get some 'interesting' results reprocessing in StarTools (a bit garish but looks great as a screen saver ). So much to learn...
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (IMG_8955.jpg)
185.4 KB100 views
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-05-2017, 06:19 PM
RickS's Avatar
RickS (Rick)
PI cult recruiter

RickS is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 10,584
It is quite saturated but not bad for a first attempt. Keep it up and you'll be cranking out masterpieces in no time.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-05-2017, 08:23 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Benjamin (Ben)
Registered User

Benjamin is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Moorooka, Brisbane
Posts: 906
Colour saturated or too stretched? It's hard to know when enough is enough :-) . Attached is a more toned down version and I stuck to more regular kind of histogram with the bulk of its hump jammed against the left hand side (not so familiar with the techinal terms). The image was taken through an ED80 with a modded 40D (6x 5 minute subs at ISO800 with a CLS-CCD filter on a moonless suburban night).

The first question I had in regards to importing the image into StarTools was which categeory of image it is (according to Startools initial prompt - linear, bayered etc.)? I stack my images in Nebuloisty, removing darks and flats, normalizing intensities, debayering and aligning. I have no idea what this means in regards to white balance although I assume the fit file I'm importing, with the Nebulosity processes applied, is no longer bayered? From memory I think I guessed the first option for this picture.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (IMG_8956.jpg)
169.9 KB71 views
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-05-2017, 09:17 PM
RickS's Avatar
RickS (Rick)
PI cult recruiter

RickS is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 10,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
Colour saturated or too stretched? It's hard to know when enough is enough :-) . Attached is a more toned down version and I stuck to more regular kind of histogram with the bulk of its hump jammed against the left hand side (not so familiar with the techinal terms). The image was taken through an ED80 with a modded 40D (6x 5 minute subs at ISO800 with a CLS-CCD filter on a moonless suburban night).
Looks a bit better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
The first question I had in regards to importing the image into StarTools was which categeory of image it is (according to Startools initial prompt - linear, bayered etc.)? I stack my images in Nebuloisty, removing darks and flats, normalizing intensities, debayering and aligning. I have no idea what this means in regards to white balance although I assume the fit file I'm importing, with the Nebulosity processes applied, is no longer bayered? From memory I think I guessed the first option for this picture.
Sounds like linear is the right choice. Linear means that it hasn't been stretched yet.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-05-2017, 08:53 AM
sil's Avatar
sil (Steve)
Not even a speck of dust

sil is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1,474
look into colour calibration and/or colour casts with your software. For me I use PixInsight (got neb and ST but never get far with them personally) so I register (align), integrate (stack) my dslr images this gives me a 64bit depth integration.fit file to start with. I suppose I should look into debayering as step 1 before registration. But since I dont PI has a tool that removes the small green cast since my bayer pattern has two greens to each red/blue pixel the cast isnt obvious at first but it gets boosted up as the image goes through my workflow.I also do a colour calibration step

Your Carina has a red cast though (maybe white balance settings?) but you might find something to help there, try stretching your histogram first by separate R, G & B channels, I expect your R channel differs greatly. When you get the three humps aligned it may be its more natural state and you can then adjust RGB as one again. if this makes sense.


Linear etc, well bayered is the raw image from your camera, dslr usually use a bayer matrix of RGBR, so try with a single raw sub. As Rick said Linear is the right choice from what youve done. I dont understand why its called "linear" but I see it in terms of ratios, in a single sub a pixel in the middle of a star is probably overexposed to pure white, a pixel in the background should be pure black, and perhaps the arms of a galaxy a 50% grey (go with me on the rough numbers here please). So the colour distance between the black, grey and white pixels are say 1:1:1. Now you align and stack a second frame, the ratio stays 1:1:1, align and stack 1,000 frames and it stays at 1:1:1. So the result doesnt "look" any better than when you started with a single frame.

Its in its linear state still. What you have gained that you cant yet see is depth.

Typical displays are only 8bit depth (8 bits per colour channel per pixel, so 8x R+8xG+8xB gives us our 24bit display spec. now 8 bits is 256 values
so going back to my example the white pixel starts at 256 value (well actually 256, 256, 256 for colour) which is as much as a computer display shows, align and stack second frame the value stacks to 512 but gets translated back down for display to 256, think of it as value divided by stacked frames. Likewise the black pixel will have a value of 0 and the gray 128. Now the captured frames contain signal which we want (so star centre of white is 256,256,256) and noise which we dont. The noise is added into the signal and stored as our image. Every so often a bit of noise will sit on our white pixel changing it slightly to off white (say 250, 253, 256). But mostly the white pixel should always be white. So going back to stacking giving us depth where value divided by stacked frames all the values of this whit pixel should eventual average out close to the true expected value of 256,256,256, likewise black to 0,0,0 and the grey to 128,128,128.

This depth gives you a huge flexibility to stretch values before the noise values start reimposing themselves into your image since its still there in the signal. And faint signals can be revealed too , and false faint signal from stacked noise clumps get pushed into the depths. So it increases the accuracy of the values in the image, but as I said at the start it stays in a linear display format so wont look any better on its own. The depth it provides lets you be more adventurous with the processing so you can stretch it further to a "nice" display image without the noise becoming dominant again.

Confused now? The terminology drove me crazy when I started astrophotography processing. Image registration? I was looking for the online database where I would have to register and wonder how much it'd cost. Similiar/same terms crop up if you do any medical imaging too btw.

Again as Rick said "linear means it hasn't been stretched yet". I always keep my first linear image as its the starting point and contains everything in my subs set. Later on with new knowledge and software I can load in the same linear image and reprocess to get improvements.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-05-2017, 10:00 AM
RickS's Avatar
RickS (Rick)
PI cult recruiter

RickS is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 10,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by sil View Post
I dont understand why its called "linear"
It's called linear because the ADU values in each pixel are a simple linear function of the number of photons detected. If one pixel detects twice the number of photons compared to another, then it will report twice the ADU value.

When we stretch the data we destroy this linear relationship because the stretch boosts low pixel values much more than high pixel values. Hence, stretched data is called "non linear."

Cheers,
Rick.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-05-2017, 10:54 AM
Benjamin's Avatar
Benjamin (Ben)
Registered User

Benjamin is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Moorooka, Brisbane
Posts: 906
Thanks Rick and Sil. That's great advice and it's starting to make some sense! I see these terms on astrobin and never quite understand what they all signifiy. The red was pretty dominant on the histogram and assumed it's from my modded camera letting in more of that wavelength, clipped as it is by the CLS-CCD filter. Have basically been attempting to follow the histogram l and attempting to get the RGB to 'hump' together near the LH side. I did limit the green (a choice you can make in StarTools) and then the image was played with in iPhoto, which is pretty basic and should probably be replaced by editing in Photoshop at some point. Figure learning StarTools with some old data is a first step.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-05-2017, 09:13 AM
sil's Avatar
sil (Steve)
Not even a speck of dust

sil is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1,474
Thanks Rick, better communicator than I. ADU means Angels Dance Upwards to me (from Enigma). No matter where you look in this game there are terms and acronyms everywhere that are hard for laymen to understand. I simplify for myself to better comprehend what changing something will result in for my final picture down the line and what to "look" for along the way in my work flow.


I don't know what effect the filter makes, can you try without it and see if your red dominance is still there. Levels adjusting each colour channel individually not as a single RGB adjustment is a simple photoshop trick for colour restoring faded/colour cast photos. It worked for my early Jupiter shots where the camera software was auto white balancing and couldnt be controlled so giving weird colour casts each time.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-05-2017, 11:32 AM
Benjamin's Avatar
Benjamin (Ben)
Registered User

Benjamin is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Moorooka, Brisbane
Posts: 906
Might try without the CLS filter under darker skies. Lots of fine colour adjusting I can still do in StarTools keeping the histogram in mind and playing with sliders. More a case of familiarity with what looks good and in what contexts (i.e. experience and more browsing on Astrobin!). The orange/purple Eta at full resolution works a treat as a screen backdrop but still doesn't quite compare with the constraint in the image I took with an 8" Newt, which I have yet to put through StarTools... hmmm next experiment...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-05-2017, 11:49 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Benjamin (Ben)
Registered User

Benjamin is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Moorooka, Brisbane
Posts: 906
Had a very noisy linear image of the Rosette: low integration time (maybe 20 minutes) and shot with a DSLR at the peak of summer when sensor temps would have been around 35° plus. Not good. Question is whether there really is only so much you can do given a large amount of noise? Garbage in garbage out.. I've put two different versions of the same data, the first lightly stretched in Nebulosity the latter worked through (or rather messed around with) in StarTools.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (IMG_8966.jpg)
202.2 KB39 views
Click for full-size image (IMG_8965.jpg)
215.3 KB37 views
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-05-2017, 04:42 PM
ChrisV's Avatar
ChrisV (Chris)
Registered User

ChrisV is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,738
Nice images Ben ! How did you sort through startools? Like your Rosette. I just try everything until it looks okay.

Have you seen any good startools video tutorials? The few I have seem are lousy - people mucking around with no idea what they are doing.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-05-2017, 05:23 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Benjamin (Ben)
Registered User

Benjamin is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Moorooka, Brisbane
Posts: 906
I'm very much like you Chris! I look and tweak but with so much noise I tweak pretty hard on some things and then it goes down a weird rabbit hole. Of course I could just undo the tweaking but I keep thinking there's something else I could do... some other module...

There's a link to various videos on the startools forum here:
http://forum.startools.org/viewtopic...126144b88ce94a

I'm liking the live demo video with Ivo doing the processing. It's long but clearly explained. Moments where I feel my noob status ("we all know we don't want to clip data right?.... yep....)

The best comment for me was just about getting to know your target and understanding the whole live, interactive processing thing. Hope it helps anyway.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hqm4mB2TKN0
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:36 AM
ChrisV's Avatar
ChrisV (Chris)
Registered User

ChrisV is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,738
Thanks for those links Ben they look great. I really like the process in startools (even though I only understand little bits). Beats tweaking histograms in sharpcap fitswork and photoshop.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-05-2017, 02:16 PM
LostInSp_ce's Avatar
LostInSp_ce
Unregistered User

LostInSp_ce is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 754
Thought I'd chime in and say that these are coming along well Ben. I'll be watching with interest.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 09:58 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Testar
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement