Doubles anyone ?

[Bombardon (Eugene)]

Thanks for the reminder of the Sissy Haas book, Suzy. I think Joe and I left out the Trapezium as it is perhaps everybody's goto when warming up in Orion. Where I live I can rarely get beyond five but a friend with sharper eyes and better gear reaches the six revularly. Other books I get my doub les from are "The Cambridge Double Star Atlas" by Bruce MacvEvoy and Wil Tirion. Similar to Sissy but good maps. Also check Vol 3 of "The Night Sky Observers Guide" Volume 3 -The Southern Skies by Ian Cooper, Jenn7 Kay and eorge Robert Kepple. On the net Eagle Creek Observatory has great lists of doubles in each constellation and Joe has mentioned -also on the net- StellerDoppie(Sp?) which even shows orbits for many binaries.
Regards, Eugene

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by Suzy

Thank you Joe for the warm welcome.
That's a nice list, nicely followed by the maps. You've done such great work here. There's a fantastic book I have, which you may be interested in looking up, it's called Sky & Telescope - Stargazing Series - Double Stars for Small Telescopes, by Sissy Hass. It tells you all the info incl. what they look like (lots of Hartung's obs notes!). I just looked up Orion and wow 5 pages!

Hey, you forgot the showcase of them all!
Theta Ori - The Trapezium.

I used to do some of our monthly observing challenges and I can respect & understand how much work goes into these challenges, so good on ya! I used to break mine down into easy, medium & difficult. I found it more fun doing a challenge per constellation, you get to have a more personal experience with it, it's very rewarding. I used to take ideas on one thread (such as this) and then post the actual challenge on a separate thread so it can be easily searched for in the future.

I've been wanting to get into double star observing for a long time, uptil now it's only been the odd one here and there.
It's been enjoyable reading people reports on here.

I should give this a shout out on our fb page , hopefully give it a bit more publicity to attract more observers. I'll do it when the list is ready, I presume it'll be a March challenge .

Once again, thanks for your input Suzy.

Yes I'm well aware of Sissy Haas and her wonderful DOUBLES publication.

And as Eugene mentions Bruce MacEvoys wonderful publications and work on Doubles.

Certainly thats what we plan to do with our next list..VIZ ..
Post list here ,then actually start reports in the proper Report section...some jumped the gun before we did this..so left all for now, as is.

Trapezium ..reluctantly left out!

Looking forward to your possible participation in this endevour..and of course some suggestions by yourself and all, when we post next months list to be ultimately amended .

With thanks bigjoe.

[rrussell1962]

Found my notes on Beta Muscae - complete lack of success. Not a hint of it being a double. It does not help that I do most of my observing from my garden and South is above the roof with associated warm air rising! Great thread Joe, thank you for your effort and I hope to contribute from time to time when my trawling through the Herschel 400 allows. It is actually really nice to see another active visual observing thread on here and gaining traction. Sirius continues to elude me.

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by rrussell1962

Found my notes on Beta Muscae - complete lack of success. Not a hint of it being a double. It does not help that I do most of my observing from my garden and South is above the roof with associated warm air rising! Great thread Joe, thank you for your effort and I hope to contribute from time to time when my trawling through the Herschel 400 allows. It is actually really nice to see another active visual observing thread on here and gaining traction. Sirius continues to elude me.

Its indeed tough..going to put up some tips now.
bigjoe.

[michaellxv (Michael)]

I had a go at the doubles challenge on Sunday night, although by the time a started looking at doubles it was actually Monday.

Observing with a C8 and 15mm Plossl at 135X. I tried a few different EP but found this gave me the best view on the night. My notes were very brief but here they are.

RIGEL(Beta Orionis): Clear separation.

31 ORIONIS: Clear separation. A appeared yellow and B was blueish.

RHO ORIONIS (p ): Clear separation.

SIGMA ORIONIS: This field is Superb as promised. I didn't record colours but did draw myself a rough sketch of the FOV. I will have to go back to this one.

ZETA ORIONIS (ALNITAK): A & B very close but there was separation, C was difficult to see with 73% Moon nearby. this one prompted me to try a higher Mag but it didn't help.

SAIF AL JABBAH (ETA ORIONIS): I did get separation on this one but clearly affected by seeing.

32 ORIONIS: Only very brief moments of separation, required patience to keep looking. I will need to return to this to confirm.

52 ORIONIS: Could not separate this pair.

Michael.

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by michaellxv

I had a go at the doubles challenge on Sunday night, although by the time a started looking at doubles it was actually Monday.

Observing with a C8 and 15mm Plossl at 135X. I tried a few different EP but found this gave me the best view on the night. My notes were very brief but here they are.

RIGEL(Beta Orionis): Clear separation.

31 ORIONIS: Clear separation. A appeared yellow and B was blueish.

RHO ORIONIS (p ): Clear separation.

SIGMA ORIONIS: This field is Superb as promised. I didn't record colours but did draw myself a rough sketch of the FOV. I will have to go back to this one.

ZETA ORIONIS (ALNITAK): A & B very close but there was separation, C was difficult to see with 73% Moon nearby. this one prompted me to try a higher Mag but it didn't help.

SAIF AL JABBAH (ETA ORIONIS): I did get separation on this one but clearly affected by seeing.

32 ORIONIS: Only very brief moments of separation, required patience to keep looking. I will need to return to this to confirm.

52 ORIONIS: Could not separate this pair.

Michael.

Glad to hear you had a go Michael..

52 IS notoriously tough!
31 and Rho.. very attractive doubles.

Even I need to return to 52 .... thats when the weather clears!
bigjoe.

[MattT]

I’ll join in too Joe.
Last night was sort of OK here in Melbourne...E star in the trap visible but not the F in my 6”f12 Acho and piggybacked 3.5” f11.1 acrho.

I had a go at Altinak which was an easy split with both scopes mounted on my 2” ATM pillow block EQ mount I built a couple of years back.

Sirius was split by both but the 3.5” with 6mm UOVT Ortho showed less scatter than the 6”f12 with Morpheus 6.5mm....swapping them around showed the Ortho has the ‘better’ view...not by much though.I have a TEC turret on the 3.5” with 18 12.5 9 7 and 6mm Orthos in, so it is easy to swap around....better than a zoom IMO.

Rigel....dead easy in both. That was it.

Tonight I’ll try a few less easy ones. Haven’t had the scope out since October last year...it’s been a while.

Matt

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by MattT

I’ll join in too Joe.
Last night was sort of OK here in Melbourne...E star in the trap visible but not the F in my 6”f12 Acho and piggybacked 3.5” f11.1 acrho.

I had a go at Altinak which was an easy split with both scopes mounted on my 2” ATM pillow block EQ mount I built a couple of years back.

Sirius was split by both but the 3.5” with 6mm UOVT Ortho showed less scatter than the 6”f12 with Morpheus 6.5mm....swapping them around showed the Ortho has the ‘better’ view...not by much though.I have a TEC turret on the 3.5” with 18 12.5 9 7 and 6mm Orthos in, so it is easy to swap around....better than a zoom IMO.

Rigel....dead easy in both. That was it.

Tonight I’ll try a few less easy ones. Haven’t had the scope out since October last year...it’s been a while.g

Matt

Great to hear your Report Matt.
Thats what Im finding too .. Less glass less scatter...as good as the Morpheus and the equally good Deloi are... near nothing beats a Good Orthoscopic in near perfect seeing.

The Tak Orthos are ridiculously good Im finding..though the great Deloi , and Morpheus have their place esp in a Dob.

You Bagged Sirius ..great news.
bigjoe.

Tec turret....love those...I envy you.
bigjoe.

[xelasnave]

Hi Bigjoe.
I havent lost interest there is just no lasting sky here and the conditions even between clouds probably not good for doubles.
But its a grest thing you got started...congrstulations.
Alex

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Hi Bigjoe.
I havent lost interest there is just no lasting sky here and the conditions even between clouds probably not good for doubles.
But its a grest thing you got started...congrstulations.
Alex

Thank you Alex for your kind words..
Indeed the skies have been mostly lousy here in Sydney and a bit West as well...need to re- attempt 52 Orionis.

If you get a chance to try one or two thats great.. let us know how you went...your 80mm FPL 53 Triplet alone, should do well on nearly all of these.

Problem I have, is selecting a Constellation thats not too far North for people in Melbourne and Tassie say...its too low, and they have to deal with a thick atmosphere, its refraction effects and turbulance etc

Also, just getting people with a lot of mental Inertia to Doubles, to see how nice some of these doubles actually are...is a task!

Cheers bigjoe.

[xelasnave]

Well it is finally clear here.
And the Moon is absolutely beautiful.
I dont have anything here for the 80 mm to observe with so I am going to see what I can sort out with auto guiding maybe and try some snaps and see what I can do with a bright Moon.
I wish I gad brought another mount so I could image and shot all at once.
I just know if I set up the eight inch it will cloud over so I may just go for a long take on eta..
Ordinarily I would not bother with the Moon but it seems clear so I will try...Anyways it looks great now so I hope it stays nice...I would even be happy shooting the Moon given been here two weeks and nothing like it seems like tonight.
Hopefully a Moonlite night here is better than a dark night in Sydney but matbe short exposures.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Well I am running at the good old 30 seconds on eta at 800 and somehow I dont think with the Moon can get a longer exposure. Anywaysset up has worn me out my legs are on fire and the mozzies are deadly so I will let it run as I recover and maybe hook up auto guide later.
I sprayed this insect spray and it seems to have attacked the plastic in my new little head lamp and its gone all sticky.
Seem to have got the star alignment sortted but I like moving it by hand so its hard to get used to lettingvit slew to an object but it will be good to find doubles easily when I get to them...its all happening.
Alex

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Well I am running at the good old 30 seconds on eta at 800 and somehow I dont think with the Moon can get a longer exposure. Anywaysset up has worn me out my legs are on fire and the mozzies are deadly so I will let it run as I recover and maybe hook up auto guide later.
I sprayed this insect spray and it seems to have attacked the plastic in my new little head lamp and its gone all sticky.
Seem to have got the star alignment sortted but I like moving it by hand so its hard to get used to lettingvit slew to an object but it will be good to find doubles easily when I get to them...its all happening.
Alex

Good to hear alls coming along Alex.

True, the Moon will stuff up your endeavors...Dam mozzies have sent me packing for tonight too !

We live to fight another day!

bigjoe.

[Wilso]

Quote- They mostly come at night, mostly.
Newt (Aliens)
Haven't had a chance to try your list yet, too much work.
Hopefully this weekend
Cheers

[gaseous (Patrick)]

The clouds finally buggered off from Brisbane last night so I could test these fine doubles prepared by Bigjoe.



Scope and Eyepiece(s) used: Skywatcher 8" goto dob, Baader 8-24 zoom, Celestron Luminos 7mm, ES 82° 4.7mm

Magnification(s) used: 150x (Baader Zoom), 171x (celestron), 255x (ES 82°)

Seeing was pretty reasonable south of Brisbane last night, despite the glow of a very fullish moon right in my face. Stars were sharp up to 150x, but got a little grainy at higher mags.


RIGEL(Beta Orionis): Separation 9.5". Magnitude of pair AB : 0.28, 6.8.
PA 202°. What do you see?
RA 05h 15m 24s DEC -08°11' 02".


Easily split, with a the tiny faint companion at about 5 o'clock (still got to brush up on my PA skills through the dob).

31 ORIONIS: Separation of pair is 12.8". PA 88°. Mags of pair AB: 4.7, 9.7 ...An absolute GEM...Colours seen?
RA 05h 30m 38s. DEC -01°04' 52".

Easily split, with the main star appearing a golden orange and the secondary star appearing a dim blue.

RHO ORIONIS (p ): Separation 6.9". PA 62°
AB: MAGS 4.5, 8.5.. a pretty double.
RA 5h 13.1m. DEC +02° 51' 40".


Easily split, with a main golden yellow star and pale yellow companion.

SIGMA ORIONIS: (σ Orionis).... Superb.
AB Combined at Mag 3.7, is too close to separate for anyone, star C at magnitude 8.7 at a Separation of 11.6 " away from the AB pair isnt....
with two magnitude 6.6 stars, Called D and E, at separations 12.7" and 41.50" respectively from the AB pair ......so you'll actually see four coloured stars.......
What colours do you see? Lovely Struve 761 a triple also in FOV.
RA 05h 38m 45s . DEC -02° 36' 00".


AB appears to be pale yellow-white. C appears to my eyes a faint dusky red-purple colour, or it could have been grey, it was that dim. D appears to be a pale bluey-white, and E seemed to be a yellow-white.


Rough diagram hopefully attached.



ZETA ORIONIS (ALNITAK): Actually a triple! A, B, C. Near the Horsehead on the charts below, and PART OF ORIONS BELT.
PA 167°.
Magnitudes A: 1.77 , B: 3.7 , C: 9.6
Separation AB: 2.18″..... Sep to BC: 58.0"
RA 05h 41m 39s DEC -01° 56' 10"


Relatively easy split, no discernible colour that I could see.

SAIF AL JABBAH (ETA ORIONIS): PA 77°..SEPARATION 1.8"..Looks like an n on the SS charts below.
AB: Magnitudes 3.39, 4.89.
RA 04h 24m 09s DEC -02° 23' 50".


Just able to separate them at 150x, but slightly better division (if a bit softer) at 171x and 255x

32 ORIONIS: PA 44°... Separation 1.3". Brightest star just inside Orion near Bellatrix. MAGS AB: 4.23, 5.75 .
RA 05h 30m 47s DEC +05°56' 53" .
Use DAWES LIMIT for your scope as equal enough..Sep given in Eaglecreek observatory and elsewhere is wrong..not 0 .7".


Jeepers that's a tight one. Just managed a hairline split (maybe) or kissing/unsplit, with a fair bit of imagination at high mag, but if you weren't looking for it as a double you'd pass right by it. Both appeared golden from memory.

52 ORIONIS: SEPARATION 1.0" PA 220°.
Mags AB: 5.99, 6.03 ............Very, very, TOUGH, at or near 120mm aperture; needs very good seeing with aforementioned aperture...at least they are equal pairs, making it easier than otherwise using Dawes limit for your scope.
RA 05h 48m 58s DEC +06° 27' 27".


Not a chance Lance, not in a million years. Not with my gear, eyes, and seeing conditions.

[Steffen]

Originally Posted by gaseous

52 ORIONIS: SEPARATION 1.0" PA 220°.
Mags AB: 5.99, 6.03 ............Very, very, TOUGH, at or near 120mm aperture; needs very good seeing with aforementioned aperture...at least they are equal pairs, making it easier than otherwise using Dawes limit for your scope.
RA 05h 48m 58s DEC +06° 27' 27".


Not a chance Lance, not in a million years. Not with my gear, eyes, and seeing conditions.

52 Ori should be quite possible with an 8" tracking Dob, but you'll need way more magnification. My observing notes from 20th January up at the club site in the Blue Mountains say: "Nice close, even looking double, best at 450x. No colour seen". IIRC, I could clearly see it split from 360x onwards. I used a 6" Mak and the 3-6mm TV zoom. Seeing was very good that night.

[gaseous (Patrick)]

Originally Posted by Steffen

52 Ori should be quite possible with an 8" tracking Dob, but you'll need way more magnification. My observing notes from 20th January up at the club site in the Blue Mountains say: "Nice close, even looking double, best at 450x. No colour seen". IIRC, I could clearly see it split from 360x onwards. I used a 6" Mak and the 3-6mm TV zoom. Seeing was very good that night.

Thanks Steffen, I'll give it another crack with the Barlow. It was just starting to look like a pile of golden mashed potato at 255x so I didn't try anything higher, but you've spurred me on to try again. I'd imagine the seeing in the Blue Mountains is considerably better than 1km from the Logan Hyperdome!

[Steffen]

Actually, the seeing is often better down from the suburbs. Try those murky, grey sky nights, they can bring surprisingly good seeing. Most people don't bother because you can't see any DSOs, but for double stars they can be perfect. Also, light pollution doesn't matter, unless you're chasing very uneven pairs with faint companions.

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Quote "Not a chance Lance, not in a million years. Not with my gear, eyes, and seeing conditions"

Pat.. 52 Orionis, as Steffen suggests..needs a lot of power..even I was unable to go further one ordinary night at about 300x.........Using a Barlowed 6mm Tak Abbe in a 130mm TS APO , due to seeing...YOUR Collimated scope should do it at around 350 x.

Will need to retry myself !


bigjoe.

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by Steffen

52 Ori should be quite possible with an 8" tracking Dob, but you'll need way more magnification. My observing notes from 20th January up at the club site in the Blue Mountains say: "Nice close, even looking double, best at 450x. No colour seen". IIRC, I could clearly see it split from 360x onwards. I used a 6" Mak and the 3-6mm TV zoom. Seeing was very good that night.

Great to see your much needed input here Steffen...indeed as you state, ultra high magnifications are needed to split some of these tight doubles, esp if the seeing is very good.. then go for it..and yes 450x plus , may be needed.

TV Zoom is by all accounts, a fantastic 5 element EP for this task , with its sharpness, contrast, very low scatter, and ability to dial in the right magnification for the conditions..IDEAL!

Im finding more and more, with EPs and their elements, LESS IS MORE.

Even a good Japanese Kellner, or RKE can surprise on some tight Doubles and Planets...NO NEED for ultra expensive widefields, and their usually increased scatter and discernible contrast drops.

With good Plossls, UO and Fujiyama Orthos,Tak Abbes and LEs, TV Zoom 6mm to 3mm, and even Vixen, Baader, or Bintels Deluxe Orion Zoom, doing outstanding work on these objects.....a GSO 9mm Plossl, and 8mm , 3.2mm TS Dual EDs used, proved up to the task also .

And yes..the City light pollution , Full Moon, and ordinary transperancy has little or no effect on your doubles observing..just one more reason to include some in one's observing regime.

Seeing and Optics RULE here.

bigjoe.