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Old 08-05-2008, 03:28 PM
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aiming for 2nd Halley's

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Canon 450D vs 350D vs 20D

Ok Guys, need some advice.

I can see the 450D has 12MP and the 350 has 8MP. 20D has I believe 8.2MP.

I can get 350 with lens for $669au and 450D for $1109au... 20D I expect is close to the latter.So given these cost differentials

Will I notice 12MP over 8MP in most starting out astro-photography?

I believe the 20D is lower noise, but is it that much more noticable? What's the on-balance value of less noise but less pixels comparing 20D to 450D?

Finally the 450 has live mode... what is it and do I want it?

Anything else I should know.

thanks fellas.

Rob
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  #2  
Old 08-05-2008, 04:07 PM
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AlexN
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yeah you want live view for astrophotography. You don't need it but its nice. What it does is allows you to use the rear lcd as a view finder. This makes focusing easier as the standard they finder is pretty small. The 20d will be less noisy at higher iso speeds, and it is novicable. I can't tell you which is better for astro work, as i've never used them for it.

12 mp is also a nice boost over 8. More pixels is always good. Especially when you want to capture alot of finer detail..

My 2c.
Alex
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Old 08-05-2008, 04:32 PM
Ian Robinson
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I looked at the 400D and 40D , and considered the 450D , decided on a 40D because :

- better build quality than 400D and 450D (Mg Alloy & Stainless Steel vs Stainless Steel & Engineering Plastic) , feels more solid too.
- better snr in chip and wider ISO range (3200 vs 1600 for 400D and 450D)
- I can change the view screens ( I will install the precision focusing screen )
- I don't think an extra 2Mpix I could get from the 450D was worth sacrificing the extras in the 40D
- I can lock up the mirror and have live view if I want it
- integrated cleaning system
- accepts a wider range of Canon and aftermarket camera accessories than the other.
- better shutter.

I think of the 3 , the 40D is the better camera for MY purposes (astro , scientific / engineering , and general holiday and terrestrial photography).

I've also decided while I'm at it to get :
- angle viewer C (focusing microscope)
- body armour (to protect that investment)
- all three available focusing screens
- a 2nd (spare) battery
- a car adapter cable (those long exposures will be rough on the Li-ion batteries)
- 4 Gbyte memory card
- TC 80N3 remote (better than the RC 80N3) has self timer, interval timer, long exposure, exposure counting ... not cheap !!! .... YOU NEED A REMOTE (is indispensible in astrophotography !!!!!!)
- EFS 17-85mm f4 - 5.6 IS USM zoom lens (will be great for general photography)
- EF 70-200mm f2.8 L IS USM zoom lens (will be good for general and low light engineering and astro photography) ... not cheap !!! I was tempted by an even bigger one but that was super expensive (a similar sized APO with telecompressor/field flattener would be cheaper ... maybe in 3 or 4 years when I've saved a few more pennies.

That will keep me happy for a while I think.
-

I might get a reconditioned secondhand 350D or 400D body and mod it for astrophotography later or just go for a real ccd astrocamera with 8 or 10 Mpix LATER .

Last edited by Ian Robinson; 08-05-2008 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 08-05-2008, 04:35 PM
Dennis
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Hi Rob

I have the 40D and I find that Remote Live View is invaluable to me for focusing.
  • “Live View” is when you see the live image on the LCD on the back of the camera.
  • “Remote Live View” is when the camera is connected to the Notebook computer via the USB cable and you can examine the live image on the Notebook display.
In both modes, you can zoom in x5 and x10 to magnify a small, high contrast region of the image to fine tune the focus.

WARNING: How the 40D and 450D implements these functions could be different so remember, I am talking about the 40D here, and the screen dumps below are from the 40D.

There was a post on the Images Plus Yahoo Group the other day about how mirror lock up is implemented differently on the 450D compared to the 40D, so there are differences.

Cheers

Dennis
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  #5  
Old 08-05-2008, 05:55 PM
Ian Robinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
Hi Rob


I have the 40D and I find that Remote Live View is invaluable to me for focusing.
  • “Live View” is when you see the live image on the LCD on the back of the camera.
  • “Remote Live View” is when the camera is connected to the Notebook computer via the USB cable and you can examine the live image on the Notebook display.
In both modes, you can zoom in x5 and x10 to magnify a small, high contrast region of the image to fine tune the focus.

WARNING: How the 40D and 450D implements these functions could be different so remember, I am talking about the 40D here, and the screen dumps below are from the 40D.

There was a post on the Images Plus Yahoo Group the other day about how mirror lock up is implemented differently on the 450D compared to the 40D, so there are differences.

Cheers

Dennis
Interesting .... maybe I can do without the optional precision focusing screen and the angle C finder (focusing microscope) .... I'm new to DSLRs and still think in 35mm SLR mode.
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:11 PM
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aiming for 2nd Halley's

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Thanks Guys,

Dennis you're making me pine for the ol' Mewlon 180 with those shots

Ok it looks like the 40D is worth serious consideration (just what I need, more choice) and that Live Mode is a good thing


Apart from taking pictures of things far away I like taking pictures of things that are very close (e.g. coins, beads etc). Does the standard lens/body kit come with any form of Macro mode either optical or digital?

cheers,

Rob
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:39 PM
Dennis
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Hi Rob

I purchased the standard 18-50mm and 55-200mm standard kit lenses with our Pentax *ist DS and they kept me happy for a while and are great for good quality, happy snaps.

However, when we got the 40D we also got the Canon 70-200 F4 L lens and it is an absolute cracker; much, much more expensive though! We also got a “specialized” 60mm F2.8 Macro lens and it is as sharp as the proverbial razor. Here are a couple of example photos; the pairing dragonflies from the 70-200 and the close ups from the 60mm macro.

Just like astronomy, there are telescopes and there are telescopes – you get what you pay for.

Cheers

Dennis

PS - Tak have now discontinued the M180!
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  #8  
Old 08-05-2008, 08:47 PM
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aiming for 2nd Halley's

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis View Post

PS - Tak have now discontinued the M180!
AAAGGGGHHHHH


Thanks for posting those macro shots are stunning.... guess it's the big problem the camera body ends up being a small expense compared the specialty lenses. But at least I know the option is there!

I had read somewhere that the Nikon SLR's have the best macro functionality standard, but I haven't heard much about their utlity for astro stuff... ah the pleasant and comfortable warmth of things I can't afford
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Old 09-05-2008, 01:13 AM
Ian Robinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
Hi Rob

I purchased the standard 18-50mm and 55-200mm standard kit lenses with our Pentax *ist DS and they kept me happy for a while and are great for good quality, happy snaps.

However, when we got the 40D we also got the Canon 70-200 F4 L lens and it is an absolute cracker; much, much more expensive though! We also got a “specialized” 60mm F2.8 Macro lens and it is as sharp as the proverbial razor. Here are a couple of example photos; the pairing dragonflies from the 70-200 and the close ups from the 60mm macro.

Just like astronomy, there are telescopes and there are telescopes – you get what you pay for.

Cheers

Dennis

PS - Tak have now discontinued the M180!
Wonderful macro shots of the insects - I am particularly impressed with the dragonfly's eye !!!.... I like that kind of thing too , and have also been known to frequently pull over to take close ups of flowers too (when travelling out the back of beyond .... positively drove my son batty .... (but a good excuse to stop , get out , walk about stretch the legs , water a tree (if there was one handy) , and grab the bottle of fizzy cold stuff (Fanta , Coke Cola) or a juice from the car fridge ) .....
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:27 AM
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acropolite (Phil)
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Rob, you should be able to get a good 20D for around $600 second hand if you're wanting to test the water without spending a lot of money. 8.2mp is not to be sneezed at and will produce a fantastic image. The 20D can then be modded at a later date if you feel the need. It's worth noting that the 20/30/40D series is quite a bit heavier than the plastic fantastic 350/400/450D models. The shutter is also more robust in the 20/30/40D range.

If you're after a good starter lens at half the cost of the L series lenses, then the Sigma 17-70 F2.8-4.5 is a very good choice.

FWIW there's a 20D for sale in the Icetrade section here.
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:15 PM
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Thanks Phil, I had been toying with that idea and thanks for the tip on the Sigma lens - does it have a macro facility?

I visited Ted's Cameras today... not a good idea. Too many lovely shiny things.

Anyway they have a great deal on the 400D with a twin lens kit for $1099... but then they let me hold the 40D... it's so big and chunky and just feels like it's in a whole other league of it's own. Aggghhh but the $$.

Someone tell me great things about a 400D so I can juts go and buy that OK

cheers,

Rob
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:26 PM
Ian Robinson
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Do what I do .... read , read , and read some more , check reviews of gear you are interested in , visit the manufacturers' websites , compare and compare again and decide exactly what you want then visit the shops and tell the sales person what you want and don't give them a chance to talk you out of it or to buy something else.

Even better .... buy on line.
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:33 PM
Ian Robinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_T View Post
Thanks Phil, I had been toying with that idea and thanks for the tip on the Sigma lens - does it have a macro facility?

I visited Ted's Cameras today... not a good idea. Too many lovely shiny things.

Anyway they have a great deal on the 400D with a twin lens kit for $1099... but then they let me hold the 40D... it's so big and chunky and just feels like it's in a whole other league of it's own. Aggghhh but the $$.

Someone tell me great things about a 400D so I can juts go and buy that OK

cheers,

Rob
You get what you pay for.

Your choice on if the extra quality and extra features is worth a bit more.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:54 PM
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acropolite (Phil)
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Rob, the Sigma 17-70 does have macro and is very well reviewed. Sigma do make some good lenses. I bought mine after seeing comments by Terry (Cometguy) in this thread; Mike (Iceman) has one as well. I am very pleased with both the build and optical quality and it's a big step up from the standard kit lenses.
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Old 10-05-2008, 09:06 AM
gmbfilter (Geoff)
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I've become inspired with Ian's arguments and have just purchased a 40D with 17-85 IS USM lens. Huge fun. Thanks
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Old 10-05-2008, 12:41 PM
Ian Robinson
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Found these reports that might be of interest :

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate...rUrl=Translate


I'm looking forward to getting my 40D too, just waiting on the 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM (better weather proofing than the non-IS , heavy dews here in Gateshead overnight most nights esp in the cooler months) and I am also interested in terrestrial , travel and sports photography (people doing gymnastics and dancing) and hope to have the lot in the next couple of weeks.
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:52 PM
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aiming for 2nd Halley's

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PROBLEM SOLVED - ED40 in my hot little hands

Thanks all for your kind and helpful advice. I went back a couple of time to Ted's Camera house to handle the various Canon models and tossed up whether I wanted a new stock standard or a modded camera. In the end I decided to go stock standard and couldn't go past the 40D. I've ordered the Sigma 17-70 lens and also picked up a real bargain runout Tamron AF55-200 LD Macro lens with the ED40 body for $100!!! This should supplement the Sigma nicely. Talked 'em down a bit on the cost of the body too. The whole lot ended up costing a lot less than the ED40 +17-85mm enthusiasts package. In the end didn't cost me much more than those Grey Imports from HK you see on line so I'm a happy chappy.

cheers,

Rob
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