Hullooo chaps and chappettes!

Pharian (Christopher) · #1 21-01-2016, 11:22 PM

Hullo chaps and chappettes,

Thanks for the great community here. I've been having a bit of a read and there are some fantastic people, articles, and information. Wish I found you guys months ago!

Basically I am coming back to amateur astronomy after about 25 years. My last scope, when I was about 14, was a soul destroying Tasco toy my parents bought me. It would take about an hour to line the thing up on the moon, and then if you coughed you’d be looking at another hour with the finderscope trying to locate the most enormous thing in the sky again. Jupiter was my nemesis. It would take hours to get the most fleeting glimpse of that patience eating monster, and then it would be gone, vanishing into heavy handed focus (or perhaps an ant had walked onto one of the scope legs, the weight variable on that horrible thing being enough to put it off kilter).

It was torture, and quickly the only thing the scope was used for was looking at hot girls in the surf (hey, I was 14 and lived on a beach, go figure), and then quickly after that it was relegated to the scrap heap of history (to steal a well stolen quote) and I got an actual girlfriend, joy.

Anyway, I continued to be very interested in astronomy and all things space but in the years following the trauma of that evil Tasco real scopes that could see real things cost the same as a car / house / national debt of a small nation. There was just no chance of seeing anything truly awesome, so no real point in pursuing it as a hobby (in 18 year old me’s opinion).
These days though, with 25 years of progress on an exponential curve, suddenly real scopes are within reach! So I’m back dreaming of the stars again, and with online communities what they are now what better place to get advice than in my friendly neighbourhood stargazers forum. Chin chin!

The main thing is, obviously, I want to see some of the cool stuff that's up there. Where the moons of Jupiter used to be the pinnacle of realistic amateur astronomy, now people are knocking on the door of nebulas, binary stars, and galaxies. How cool is that? That’s what I’m talking about, and what I have been dreaming about since I was a kid. I want to look deep out there and see the weird and wonderful. Jupiter, pft, my old nemesis is now chicken feed. It’s time to see some real DSO’s, blankets of stars, local galaxies, and simply the beauty of the skies. I want to be able to do some good AP to see the deep stuff, but also do some reasonable local planet watching (Jupiter you bastich) and general looking about… but AP is going to be important because I want to see what’s out there, and there are only so many times you can line up Jupiter and curse it on behalf of your childhood self.

Anyway, I am currently wading through the outrageously complicated business of planning a new scope and getting into some stargazing and beginner AP (and also bringing my 3 year old son along for the ride, at least for the 3 minute attention spans he can manage). I have the go ahead from the better half for enough outlay to get what I think should be a reasonable setup (although I am not permitted to hold it, cuddle it, or whisper sweet nothings at it until after my birthday). To make sure I get The Right Stuff I am talking to lots of people in lots of places for some solid old-hand advice before making final purchases.

I live on the Northern Beaches in Sydney, but I will be doing most of my serious viewing down the south coast of NSW at a tiny beach shack my father has which is in the middle of a national park. It’s Dark there, or rather DARK (worthy of serious capitalisation) so I am pretty optimistic of getting some good stuff out of a scope down there. It does mean it needs to be somewhat portable though, so no chunky piers and 12” tubes for me. It doesn’t need to be grab-and-go but it does need to fit into a SUV without poking out the back.

I do like a challenge, and I generally jump into things for the long haul, so I am biting off a pretty big mouthful. I don’t want to get a scope and then find that it’s too basic and I need to now drop another wad of cash on something that will actually see out there. So I am shooting pretty high here, perhaps higher than most recommend, but that’s pretty standard for me. I’ve been researching this setup for the last few months, on and off, with a few online buddies who know their stuff. Still a few months to go before birthday purchase time, but I am currently starting to settle on the following kit:

- NEQ6 Pro mount (nabbed one second hand pretty cheap, though I haven’t paid for or picked it up yet, but I am committed to the sale). That’s the only bit I have bought so far.
- Bintel 8” RC Astrograph (GSO RCA-200 f/8 Astrograph, the rebadged Astro Tech ones.. weight is pretty much perfect for the NEQ6. Also I have been told the solid construction and low number of moving parts RC’s have is good for transporting it, especially on the dirt track to the shack)
- FF/FR focal length reducer (or Bintel .75x RC Reducer for RC scopes, CCDT67)
- Orion Short Tube 80 (for use as guide scope, though also some lazy moon views)
- ZWO ASI 120MC Colour Camera with built in ST4 autoguiding port (primarily as autoguider, but also for some unguided planetary shots) Note colour because I’m going to start with DSLR AP for wide angles and I don’t want to have to buy filters right off the bat for use with this little camera.
- EDIT: couple of eyepieces eg 15mm Superview recommended, and maybe a 22mm? What do you recommend for a 8" RC?
- Star diagonal
- Stock focuser, or if I am cashed up at the time I might jump in on a moonlight focuser.
- Canon 450D or 600D DSLR camera for AP (gonna mod the crap out of it with a big ol’ heatsink)
- Canon T piece
- Spacers (no idea what I need there but surely I’ll need a couple)
- Bayer filter (although if I’ve modded it enough maybe I don’t need that?)??
- Laptop running EQmod, PixInsight/Deep Sky Stacker, USB cables or Wifi/BT connector
- collimator for an RC scope?
- Any other equipment people think I will need (well spirit level, compass, and star atlas sure, but I mean on the scope

)

Anyway, I would dearly value any advice people might have. Am I completely insane??? Although please let me preface this request by asking that you please don’t say “oh I recommend you get an 80mm APO or a dob on a dob mount”, if you do I will throw stale Cheezels at you. I went through the whole 80mm APO / Celestron 8” Edge HD or SC / Big Ass Dob (BAD) scenarios but they either didn’t excite or had some sort of problem or limitation (not least the limits of cash). Some may like stale Cheezels though, and may also have good points, so hell... fire away.

It is clear that it is very easy to get waaaaay too carried away here and drop your credit limit in a matter of minutes. I have tried to work a scope here that will see deep and take on a lot of what’s out there to see, as well as be able to keep me interested for years to come with some great AP capabilities. I realise it’s not the easiest setup but I’ve never been one to do things by halves.

For a while I was tossing up between AP and video. Real time nebulas would be the stuff of legend, but perhaps that’s a bridge too far and can wait until I’ve worked out AP with a DSLR first.

I look forward to any awesome advice people may have. Go easy on a beginner here please!! And cheers to many years of Ice in Space!

Somnium (Aidan) · #2 21-01-2016, 11:32 PM

Hi Christopher

welcome back to the hobby ! and to the boards. is there any reason why you haven't considered an astrograph Newt. much faster than the RC, cheap as chips and much easier to collimate. an 8 - 10" newt would work well with your NEQ6 and is a great DSO killer. some people on this forum have a similar set up and get amazing results.

Pharian (Christopher) · #3 21-01-2016, 11:50 PM

Basically I am not so much looking for cheap and easy, rather good and interesting! Especially over the long term. Since RCs have been the biz since forever, and now they are $1k-ish instead of $20k-ish then getting anything else seems like copping out a bit (just a bit)

Somnium (Aidan) · #4 21-01-2016, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharian

Basically I am not so much looking for cheap and easy, rather good and interesting! Especially over the long term. Since RCs have been the biz since forever, and now they are $1k-ish instead of $20k-ish then getting anything else seems like copping out a bit.

i wouldn't say that. the RC will be f8 so you need much more exposure time than an f4 or 5 newt. you also get a better FOV. also RCs will have curvature at the edges so require a flattener. a newt with a coma corrector is really good. not saying that the RC will not perform well but there are other considerations

BeanerSA (Paul) · #5 22-01-2016, 12:50 PM

Aidan mentioned collimation on an RC. You should look into that more. Most of the threads I've read about it, are started by people starting to lose their sanity trying to collimate them.

rustigsmed (Russell) · #6 22-01-2016, 04:24 PM

nice write pharian and welcome!

I too would suggest an 8 or 10" newt. RC are mostly used for long focal length photography (and then you would probably need an OAG).

My view is you are better off with the newt, they are easier to polar align and guide due to the short focal length and once you have the knack and are photographing a smaller target it's easier to increase the f ratio with a barlow than reduce it with a reducer (which is what you are proposing with RC/reducer). Plus the money saved from a newt / RC can go to a moonlite focuser.

All the best

Russ

RobF (Rob) · #7 22-01-2016, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somnium

i wouldn't say that. the RC will be f8 so you need much more exposure time than an f4 or 5 newt. you also get a better FOV. also RCs will have curvature at the edges so require a flattener. a newt with a coma corrector is really good. not saying that the RC will not perform well but there are other considerations

+1

If you look a bit more closely, most of the killer RC shots you see posted here are taken over numerous nights from fixed observatory setups. For an amateur set up you'll likely be putting up and knocking down for 1-2 nights max sessions, don't underestimate how important F5 is versus F8 to get a decent signal:noise image. Lots of objects you will want to start on will struggle to fit in the Newt's FOV, let alone the RC is another issue. Perhaps download the free "CCDCalc" and play with focal length and camera combinations to see what I mean.

jenchris (Jennifer) · #8 22-01-2016, 05:55 PM

The 450d is a good choice, and yes the lens is actually the telescope so it can be body only if you are so disposed to purchase it that way.
RC is overrated as pretold above.
Neq6p is ace and easily controlled from a laptop for lazy ap.
It is quite heavy and requires more than one trip to the SUV.
I use a refractor for ap now but I have an f10 sct which also goes on the eq6 for small dsos.
I do however use a much bigger guide scope with a solid piggyback to the ap scope.
it gives me confidence that I will never be short of a guide star.

barx1963 (Malcolm) · #9 22-01-2016, 06:18 PM

Just on RCs and collimation. They are definitely not easier than a newt to collimate, the exact opposite in fact and very sensitive to small collimation errors.

One other comment I would make is don't bother with the eyepiece kit. I think the Meade one has a 6, 9, 13, 18 and 32 plossl, a 2x barlow and ND filter and a bunch of coloured filters. With the EPs the 32 and the 18 may get some use, the others in an RC will have such tiny FOV and eye relief you will not use them at all. The barlow may help as it preserves the eye relief of the longer eyepieces while giving more power but fiddling with barlows in the field is a pain IMHO. The ND filter is useful for the moon and Jupiter to cut down glare, the coloured filters are only useful if doing a dedicated program of planetary observing. If wanting to do LRGB imaging a dedicated imaging filter set with be much better. I have found in all my scopes that I usually only want 1 or 2 eyepieces. For example in my 20" f5, the 17mm Ethos is the ep that spend 95% of the time in my focuser.
A good inexpensive EP that will work very well with an f5 newt is the 15mm superview. It is around the $70 mark and gives a nice exit pupil at f5 and decent eye relief.

Cheers

Malcolm

doppler (Rick) · #10 22-01-2016, 11:40 PM

I'll have a bat for the RC, even though I have only had one for a week and have only managed a couple of short test runs with a bright moon interfering. My RC is only a 6" and has a similar focal length of my 10" f5 newt, so a good image scale but much smaller physical size and weight. I couldn't afford an APO so this is my compromise.

I think the problem with collimating RC scopes is that people over do it, only very small adjustments are required and usually only on the secondary. I have read that fast f4 newts are not easy to collimate either. An RC also has a shorter focal length than an equivalent aperture SCT.

The 450d is getting a bit dated now, easier to mod but the 600d has a much more sensitive chip.

You don't need a lot of fancy equipment to take some nice astro snaps, but the more automation you buy the easier it gets, athough I have seen some people getting very frustrated when the fancy gizmos don't want to play. But if you want Hubble style pictures you need a Hubble type telescope, an RC! (getting yours into orbit is the hard part though.)

Pharian (Christopher) · #11 23-01-2016, 12:11 AM

Ahh thanks for the advice! I just can't get excited for a Newts though. I don't know why.

However I may have given the wrong impression here, I am not expecting some miraculous RC experience. Mostly I am keen because I like them. I don't think that ultimately, at my level and really overall, there is going to be miles of difference between whatever tube I get... not at the $1000ish price point anyway. I am confident I can work out how to use any of them fairly well, given time. I am not expecting groudbreaking stuff here, I don't mind if the edges of shots are a little messy, or if a few stars aren't as sharp as they could be. I have realistic expectations about what I am likely to get here. Regardless of the scope I will see some awesome stuff, take some passable shots, and have alot of fun.

As far as Newts go, I just can't get into them. They somehow feel like old tech to me. I know they work very well and are probably a bit easier, and bang for buck probably better for me to start with, but a lot of this is aesthetics and I just don't like them. Maybe it's because Newton was a knobend (as if you'd go to Trinity... as my wife would say "scumbag traitor"). There are other factors with a Newt but the main one is that if I buy one I simply won't like it as much as a SCT or RC.

When I first started looking at getting back into this I looked at 8" SCTs but they were a touch expensive so I was peeking around for second hand ones (Can probably get one for $1000 if I look about a bit). Then when I was discussing with some people I realised that I would be keen to do some AP pretty quickly. I then realised that RC's were available without having to donate my firstborn. Historically RC's have been like perfect canary diamonds, and now you can buy one? From a 'history of the field' point of view, that is Awesome.

Ultimately, it comes down to what I think is a cool scope that I want to play with, and that is a SCT or RC!

The field of view isn't an issue. I looked it up on CCD Calc and because I am using DSLR my FOV is huge regardless of the scope. Even with a Sony ICX825 chip CCD it's still got a good FOV, certainly a field I am happy with at any rate.

Newts are a good bit longer and bulkier too, which is a BIG factor for me as I have to lug it on holidays with me. SCT's and RCs aren't small but they are smaller than the Newts which makes a big difference in a packed boot full of surfboards, wetsuits, spears, eskys, beer, more beer ... and children. I am a little concerned about the bumpy dirt track to the shack, which kind of makes me want an APO though, but I like the SCTs and RCs a lot more so I'm still keen on them.

With a FF/FR I can knock a RC to around F5-6, which is not as good as a F4 newt granted, but still something that should pull a decent shot in 1 night. Again, nothing groudbreaking, but something OK.

What experiences have people had with NEQ6 mounts and RC8"s? And do the bits mentioned in the list form a reasonable setup, or is there things I should drop, add, think about (other than a Newt), etc?

Thanks again for reading my ridiculous drivel, and for your valuable advice! It is truly appreciated. Chin chin!

RobF (Rob) · #12 23-01-2016, 12:28 AM

If Newts are out, you realise you'll now have to contend with people going on about why you should start with an ED80 or 100 instead. Shortish FL, effectively a giant telephoto on your camera. No cooling down time, generally lighter weight, no collimating. Can pay as much as you like

Pharian (Christopher) · #13 23-01-2016, 12:39 AM

Hahaha, yeah I know. I have had this conversation many times. I am thinking of keeping a set pad of responses for copy and pasting.

The real tossup for me is between a second hand 8" Celestron SCT and a new 8" Bintel RC.

Good chance I'll nab an ED100 second hand sometime in the future, but at the moment I want something I look at and go "awesome, lets get that thing going" ... gotta nurture the bug, you know what I mean?

Visionary (David) · #14 23-01-2016, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharian

Ahh thanks for the advice! I just can't get excited for a Newts though. I don't know why.

However I may have given the wrong impression here, I am not expecting some miraculous RC experience. Mostly I am keen because I like them. I don't think that ultimately, at my level and really overall, there is going to be miles of difference between whatever tube I get... not at the $1000ish price point anyway. I am confident I can work out how to use any of them fairly well, given time. I am not expecting groudbreaking stuff here, I don't mind if the edges of shots are a little messy, or if a few stars aren't as sharp as they could be. I have realistic expectations about what I am likely to get here. Regardless of the scope I will see some awesome stuff, take some passable shots, and have alot of fun.

As far as Newts go, I just can't get into them. They somehow feel like old tech to me. I know they work very well and are probably a bit easier, and bang for buck probably better for me to start with, but a lot of this is aesthetics and I just don't like them. Maybe it's because Newton was a knobend (as if you'd go to Trinity... as my wife would say "scumbag traitor"). There are other factors with a Newt but the main one is that if I buy one I simply won't like it as much as a SCT or RC.

When I first started looking at getting back into this I looked at 8" SCTs but they were a touch expensive so I was peeking around for second hand ones (Can probably get one for $1000 if I look about a bit). Then when I was discussing with some people I realised that I would be keen to do some AP pretty quickly. I then realised that RC's were available without having to donate my firstborn. Historically RC's have been like perfect canary diamonds, and now you can buy one? From a 'history of the field' point of view, that is Awesome.

Ultimately, it comes down to what I think is a cool scope that I want to play with, and that is a SCT or RC!

The field of view isn't an issue. I looked it up on CCD Calc and because I am using DSLR my FOV is huge regardless of the scope. Even with a Sony ICX825 chip CCD it's still got a good FOV, certainly a field I am happy with at any rate.

Newts are a good bit longer and bulkier too, which is a BIG factor for me as I have to lug it on holidays with me. SCT's and RCs aren't small but they are smaller than the Newts which makes a big difference in a packed boot full of surfboards, wetsuits, spears, eskys, beer, more beer ... and children. I am a little concerned about the bumpy dirt track to the shack, which kind of makes me want an APO though, but I like the SCTs and RCs a lot more so I'm still keen on them.

With a FF/FR I can knock a RC to around F5-6, which is not as good as a F4 newt granted, but still something that should pull a decent shot in 1 night. Again, nothing groudbreaking, but something OK.

What experiences have people had with NEQ6 mounts and RC8"s? And do the bits mentioned in the list form a reasonable setup, or is there things I should drop, add, think about (other than a Newt), etc?

Thanks again for reading my ridiculous drivel, and for your valuable advice! It is truly appreciated. Chin chin!

Good Lord, you sound exactly like me about 18 months-2 years ago! You may think you will be happy with some shots that are a little rough, well the news is you won't be happy!
You are sitting atop a dangerous precipice. You are about to step into a hobby-addiction that has no ending, more is better and equipment lust, it never stops!
My advice, buy the very best you can. Scan the Iceinspace Classified every day. Don't spent too much on new gear as your gear devalues by about 30% upon opening the box. My regret is I didn't buy enough good gear 2nd hand.
If you are confident this is your addiction of choice buy as big an aperture as you can physically manage. Buy the best lens you can. Buy the best imaging equipment you can.... most of all, buy the very best mount you can!
We only live once, if you have a solid budget, use the budget on the best you can find.

Pharian (Christopher) · #15 26-01-2016, 06:06 PM

Hi Visionary, thanks for the reply! Reckon that's sound advice you have there.

I originally started with the idea of getting a Celestron all in one sort of setup (they had an 8" SCT going in the US for AU$1300 including post) but quickly realised that the mount in particular wouldn't cut it so now I've changed plans several times over the last couple of months and now am looking mostly at building from second hand stuff over the next few months.

So far I have a 2nd hand NEQ6 and a 2nd have Orion 80mm guidescope setup sorted for just a touch over $1k total. Still loads to go but I'll just take it slow and try and learn a lot as I go, rather than rush in and buy something immediately.

I figure I should try and get stuff that I am not going to want to replace in a matter of weeks. Even if it's a bit harder to get the most out of it, I don't mind a steep learning curve, I'd rather that than be annoyed at getting crap gear.

If you hear of anyone selling a cheap yet awesome 8" SCT or 8" RC let me know! hahaha.

Chin chin!

brian nordstrom (As avatar) · #16 30-01-2016, 10:52 AM

Great set up you are building up , have a look in the classified section , there are a couple of well priced 8inch SCT,s and a RC , most of all.

To. ice in Space .

Oh yes. , as Visionary says try to buy 2nd hand , every bit of gear I have was got here in IIS except my. 60mm triplet. , I have saved a fortune but it takes time.
Brian.