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Old 14-02-2016, 12:03 AM
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Dark Sky Site Observations Feb 9 and 12th 2016

This week I was my first ever trip out to a dark sky site with a telescope for serious DSO observation. I found a good site about 15km out of town as the crow flies, which is nice and dark with good horizons. Being only a 15 min drive at most, it is also handy. During the two nights, I noted light domes from Renmark and a fainter glow from Cooltong to the S/SE. The Renmark light dome actually reduces significantly during the night as civilisation goes to bed and what not. The N, NW, NE and E horizons are completely free of any light pollution. Being a galaxy observer, this site has completely opened new doors for me which I could only have ever dreamed of back at my old place in Melbourne with its obstructed horizons and light pollution.

I was trying to decide which scope to take, the 8" or the 12", I figured let's go the whole hog and get the big gun out, only to discover the knob on one of the truss blocks has disappeared, likely during the move, and the mirror, well that could use a clean So yeah the 8" it was. The first night was windy and transparency was poorer than on the second night.

Date: 9-10th Feb 2016
Time: 22:00-02:30
Scope: 8" F/6 dob
Seeing: 4/10
Transparency: 3/5
Dew: nil

NGC 2024
Fantastic sight at 70x. The structure was near-photographic with that classic fir tree appearance bisected by a thick dark lane. A narrower dark lane splits off to the NE at the base of the "tree".

IC434/B33 Horsehead
The faint ribbon of IC434 was visible without a filter. I have a good idea of the location of the Horsehead without consulting a chart, located SE of two mag 7.5 stars straddling IC434. I could infact make out a very faint indentation in the correction location without filtration. Impressed!

NGC 2023
This is a reflection nebula surrounding a mag 7.8 star midway between the HH and NGC2024. It appeared fairly bright at 70x, with a sharp dropoff in brightness along the western edge while it fans out E of the star.

IC 435
The smaller, fainter cousin of NGC 2023 located 21' E of 2023. Surrounds a mag 8.3 star and appeared small and diffuse at 70x.

NGC 2175
BN, Orion, RA 06 09 40, Dec +20 29 15, Size= 40x30'

Elongated 'C' shaped asterism of 2 dozen or so stars anchored by a mag 7.5 star at the foot of the 'C'. At 54x, a diffuse nebula encompasses the 'C' with the brightest section surrounding the mag 7.5 star. The UHC greatly enhanced the nebula, now appearing as a large irregular glow centered on the bright star, with darker voids permeating the region NW of the star.

NGC 1365
GX, Fornax, RA 03 33 36, Dec -36 08 25, Size= 11.x6.2' , Mag V= 9.6

Small compact core which appeared slightly elongated N-S at 92x, with a wide, fainter diffuse bar running E-W. Spiral arms faintly visible, with the eastern arm slightly brighter. I should've used more magnification.

NGC 2997
GX, Antlia, RA 09 45 39, Dec -31 11 25, Size= 8.9x6.8' , Mag V= 9.6

Small dense core at 92x with an uneven surface brightness elongated halo which exhibited a flattened southern edge. A mag 11.7 star sits at the SW edge of the halo and another mag 12.7 star is at the E end.

UGC 5470 Leo I
GX, Leo, RA 10 09 21, Dec +12 13 26, Size= 11.7x8.5' , Mag B= 11.2

Located only 20' N of Regulus, which proved to be a nuisance. My first dwarf galaxy observation. Faint, nondescript moderate sized haze at 54x. A pair of mag 12 stars sit 5.5' to the NE of the centre.

UGC 5373 Sextans B
GX, Sextans, RA 10 00 52, Dec +05 15 05, Size= 4.9x3.0' , Mag V= 11.3

Easily picked up at 54x. Faint, moderate sized haze slightly elongated E-W. Two mag 13.2-13.4 stars sit just off the N edge. Increasing magnification to 70x I got the impression of somewhat uneven surface brightness.

NGC 2683
GX, Lynx, RA 08 52 42, Dec +33 25 20, Size= 9.3x2.2' , Mag V= 9.6

What a lovely galaxy! Gorgeous bright spindle at 54x. A tiny core within the bright central bulge was seen at 92x, with thin extensions orientated NE-SW. The western side appeared fainter than the eastern. A mag 13.1 star sits at the NE end and a brighter mag 11.6 star is located 2.8' SE of the core.

NGC 3003
GX, Leo Minor, RA 09 48 36, Dec +33 25 22. Size= 5.8x1.3' Mag V= 11.5

Stubby, elongated 3:1 E-W at 150x. Brightens slightly toward the centre.

NGC 3021
GX, Leo Minor, RA 09 50 57, Dec +33 33 14, Size= 1.6x0.9', Mag V= 12.3

Located 30' NE of NGC 3003. At 150x, it appeared to have higher surface brightness than 3003 with an elongated 2:1 bar running E-W surrounded by a small diffuse halo. A mag 11.3 star sits just 1' to the SE and a mag 14.6 star was seen on the northern edge of the halo.

NGC 2903
GX, Leo, RA 09 32 10, Dec +21 30 07, Size= 12.6x6' , Mag V= 9.0

Bright, tight core surrounded by a large elongated 2:1 N-S halo at 92x. Halo brightens towards the core and it seemed to be brighter along a narrow strip aligned with the long axis through the core. A mag 13.9 star sits adjacent the eastern edge of the halo. At 150x, a seperate knot/stellaring was spotted intermittently at the north end of the halo. Looking up the notes in the NGC/IC project, this has its own designation of NGC 2905 and is apparently a HII region. Nice! The galaxy itself appeared to have slightly uneven surface brightness at this magnification.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hickson 44
NGC 3190
GX, Leo, RA 10 18 06, Dec +21 49 59, Size= 4.4x1.5' , Mag V= 11.1

Brightest in a group of four with NGC 3193 6' NE, NGC 3185 11' SW, NGC 3187 5' NW. Rather high surface brightness at 150x, with an elongated NE-SW spindle-like form with a stellar core and faint halo. A mag 14.4 star sits 1.2' SW.

NGC 3187
GX, Leo, RA 10 17 48, Dec +21 52 23, Size= 3x1.3' , Mag V= 13.4

Very faint nondescript smudge at 150x. A pair of mag 14.4 stars sit adjacent to the E and S.

NGC 3193
GX, Leo, RA 10 18 25, Dec +21 53 37, Size= 3x2.7' , Mag V= 11.2

Round with high surface brightness at 150x, smaller than 3190 with a dense core. A mag 9.6 star sits just 1.2' N.

NGC 3185
GX, Leo, RA 10 17 39, Dec +21 41 18, Size= 2.3x1.6' , Mag V= 12.0

Slightly elongated E-W at 150x, mildly concentrated toward centre.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NGC 3344
GX, Leo Minor, RA 10 43 31, Dec +24 55 19, Size= 7.1x6.5' , Mag V= 10.2

Stellar core at 92x, with a larger, faint, diffuse slightly elongated E-W halo. A close pair of mag 10.3 and 11.8 stars sit superimposed on the eastern edge of the halo. At 150x a third, mag 13.9 star was seen closer to the core which itself now appeared as a dense concentration.


So that concludes the first night of observations, Part 2 will follow shortly...
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  #2  
Old 14-02-2016, 08:24 AM
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Excellent. Thoroughly enjoyed reading your report Sab. Thanks for sharing.

Steve
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Old 14-02-2016, 09:10 PM
Bombardon (Eugene)
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I envy you your viewing site, Sab and what a detailed report. I battle coastal humidity and dew in this season but look forward to Winter when lights go off early and the dry winds of the west dominate. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 14-02-2016, 11:53 PM
bigjoe (JOSEPH)
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Enjoyed your report Sab.

Noticed you did not observe NGC3115 in Sextans ,"The Spindle Galaxy"; I nearly always look for this often neglected gem for instant gratification, as its very bright even in small apertures from light polluted Sydney- NO averted vision required!

Cheers bigjoe.
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Old 15-02-2016, 12:56 AM
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cheers guys! Eugene, I'm also curious to see what winter skies will be like here, should be pretty nice under a high pressure with no wind. Colder air holds less moisture so in theory should be clearer with less muck and particulates. Joe, I thought about catching that one, but got caught up in the Leo Cluster. Just too much stuff to see!

Anyway, on to part 2:

These observations were done on the 12-13th. This night was noticeably more transparent than the 9th and also far less windy. Seeing was better aswell. It was calm except for a brief period of wind just before midnight, but thankfully that only lasted maybe an hour. Another first for me is seeing the Gegenschein , which appeared as a large faint haze between Regulus and Cancer.

Date: 12-13th Feb 2016
Time: 22:30-3:30
Scope: 8" F/6 dob
Seeing: 6/10
Transparency: 4/5
Dew: nil

NGC 1232
GX, Eridanus, RA 03 09 45, Dec -20 34 45, Size= 7.4x6.5' , Mag V= 10.1, SB= 14.1

Faint, tight core at 150x. The core appeared slightly elongated E-W and is surrounded by a large faint round halo with uneven surface brightness. A pair of mag 13.9 and 14.6 stars sit along the northern edge of the halo. A mag 9.6 star is located 7.4' E of the core.

Abell 12
PNe, Orion, RA 06 03 17, Dec +09 38 46, Size= 37x37" , Mag V= 13.9

Initially appeared as an 'extension' of the glare of MU Orionis at 150x with an OIII filter so studied the scene a bit to make sure I was actually seeing the real thing. I was able to eek out a round ghost nearly touching MU, best seen with averted vision. Increasing magnification to 240x helped as the planetary was clearly seen with averted vision as a round ghostly apparition in the glare of MU. I suspected annularity which was confirmed upon viewing images of the object.

UGC 3214
GX, Orion, RA 04 58 47, Dec -00 06 21, Size= 1.2x0.6' , Mag B= 14.3

Mildy concentrated at 150x, elongated 3:1 spindle of light. A trio of mag 12.9-14.8 stars lies ~1.5' NW.

UGC 3207
GX, Orion, RA 04 57 01, Dec +02 10 38, Size= 1.5x0.5' , Mag B= 14.1

Mild concentration toward centre at 150x, elongated 2:1 NW-SE. Galaxy MCG+00-13-035 is located 5.5' NW and a mag 8.1 star sits 6.8' south.

MGC+00-13-035
GX, Orion, RA 04 56 49, Dec +02 15 18, Size= 1.1x0.6' , Mag B= 14.6

Located 5.5' NW of UGC 3207. I used a trio of mag 12.5-13.5 stars roughly 5' to the east as a guide to help me find it. Extremely faint, nondescript mote flickering in and out of view.

NGC 2149
BN, Monoceros, RA 06 03 31, Dec -09 43 50, Size= 3x2'

Stopped here on my way to the Toby Jug nebula (which I didn't see). Reflection nebulosity centered on a mag 12.6 star. The western edge of the nebula drops off sharply in brightness roughly aligned with the star in a N-S direction. The eastern side fans out from the star in a roughly quarter-moon shape and is highly diffuse. Images of the object show a vague T-shaped void, reminiscent of NGC 1999 in Orion, but far less striking.

NGC 1672
GX, Dorado, RA 04 45 43, Dec -59 14 52, Size= 6.6x5.5' , Mag V= 10.2

Very tight, bright core at 150x with a diffuse bar oriented E-W and surrounded by fainter halo. A diffuse extension was seen curling NE from the eastern end of the bar with two mag 12.4 and 12.8 stars superimposed.

NGC 1566
GX, Dorado, RA 04 20 01, Dec -54 56 16, Size= 7x4.7' , Mag V= 9.8

Bright with a very tightly packed core at 150x, with an elongated 2:1 halo oriented N-S. After a bit of observation and using averted vision, I could vaguely make out the two spiral arms amongst the diffuse haze but they were difficult to see. A mag 14 star sits at the northern end of the halo and another mag 14.5 star sits nearly equidistant at the southern end.

NGC 3936
GX, Hydra, RA 11 52 20, Dec -26 54 14, Size= 3.9x0.6' , Mag V= 12.2

Appeared as a narrow streak of light at 150x oriented NE-SW 6:1. At 240x it brightens slightly to centre and I suspected uneven surface brightness. A mag 12.4 star lies 4.9' SW and a pair of mag 13.5-14.5 stars lie 3.5' NE.

NGC 5084
GX, Virgo, RA 13 20 17, Dec-21 49 40, Size= 9.3x1.7' , Mag V= 10.8

Appeared as a small, bright spindle with a bright, nearly stellar core. Points to a mag 8.2 star 11.4' to the east. The eastern extension pierces a triangle of mag 13-14.2 stars just 2.2' from the core. At 240x a mag 14.9 star was seen 1.5' N of the core.

ESO 576-G031
GX, Virgo, RA 13 20 40, Dec -21 58 58, Size= 1.1x0.9' , Mag B= 14.1

Located only 8' SW of NGC 5084. Faint fluff at 92x, slightly elongated N-S. Faint, elongated 2:1 N-S at 240x, with a mag 14.6 star located only 45" SE.

NGC 5068
GX, Virgo, RA 13 18 55, Dec -21 02 19, Size= 7.2x6.3' , Mag V= 9.8 , SB= 13.8

Thick, stubby bar oriented N-S 2:1 at 92x surrounded by a faint circular halo with uneven surface brightness. A mag 13.5 star sits just off the NE end of the bar. The halo appeared more pronounced west, south and SE of the centre of the galaxy, with the NE region around the superimposed star fainter.

NGC 5078
GX, Hydra, RA 13 19 50, Dec -27 24 36 , Size= 4x1.9' , Mag V= 10.8, SB= 12.8

Small, bright spindle at 150x oriented NW-SE with a very tight core. Eastern side brighter with hints of a dust lane along the western edge. At 240x, the presence of a dark lane was more obvious, with glimpses of it seperating the fainter western portion of the central bulge. A mag 14.3 star sits just off the SE end. Galaxy IC 879 lies 2.4' SW.

IC 879
GX, Hydra, RA 13 20 35, Dec -27 30 41, Size= 0.8x0.3' , Mag B= 14.1

Located 2.4' SW of NGC 5078. Faint smudge at 150x, about 1/2 the apparent size of 5078. At 240x it appeared slightly elongated in nearly the same position angle as 5078.

NGC 4565
GX, Coma Berenices, RA 12 36 21, Dec +25 59 19, Size= 15.8x2.1' , Mag V= 9.5, SB= 13.2

Impressive sight at 92x with a bright central bulge and long thin needle-like extensions. Dark lane was faintly visible with the northern portion fainter than the southern. The galaxy extended nearly halfway across the 92x FOV. A mag 13.3 star sits adjacent NE of the core.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Abell 1367 Leo Cluster
RA 11 44 29, Dec +19 50 21

One of my absolute favourite things to do is observe galaxy clusters and this one did not disappoint. I would normally print off detailed charts from Cartes Du Ciel or DSS images from Wikisky to guide me, but my printer is not set up yet so simply used the MSA. I sketched up a map of the starfield and each galaxy as I observed them. I observed 14 galaxies around the centre of the cluster but loading up CdC it is clear that I've just scratched the surface. While a lot of these galaxies were seen at 150x, I will describe my observations at 240x, which revealed the smaller, fainter objects.

NGC 3842
Size= 1.4x1' , Mag V= 11.8

Brightest in the centre of the cluster. Concentrated towards core with a mag 15 star just 40" SE of the core.

NGC 3841
Size= 0.9x0.4' , Mag V=13.8

Located 1.3' N of 3842. Faint and round.

CGCG 097-090
Size= 0.6x0.4' , Mag V= 14.7

Tiny, extremely faint. A mere 1.1' W of 3842 and a mag 15.4 star was seen flickering in and out of vision just 35" NW.

UGC 6697
Size= 1.9x0.4' , Mag V= 13.6

Located 3.3' W of 3842. Very faint, strongly elongated.

NGC 3845
Size= 1.3x0.5' , Mag V= 14.2

Very faint, slightly elongated E-W 2:1 with slight concentration. Located midway between NGC3844 2' to NW and a mag 11.2 star 2' SE.

NGC 3844
Size= 1.2x0.2' , Mag V= 13.9

Located 5' N of 3842 and 2' NW of 3845. Elongated NE-SW with a highly concentrated core. Brighter than 3845.

NGC 3840
Size= 1.2x0.8' , Mag V= 13.8

Located 3' N of 3844. Faint with a small round core.

NGC 3851
Size= 0.3x0.3' , Mag V= 14.4

Located 4.7' ENE of 3842. Extremely faint and highly difficult. A mag 14 star sits 44" west.

CGCG 097-112
Size= 0.9x0.3' , Mag V= 14.1

Small, faint, elongated N-S with a nearly stellar core. Located 10' NE of 3842.

UGC 6719
Size= 1x0.7' , Mag V= 13.6

Located 14' NE of 3842, appeared round and diffuse. Forms a triangle with a pair of mag 12.2 and 13.4 stars to the N/NE.

NGC 3837
Size= 0.6x0.6' , Mag V= 13.3

Second brightest in the core of Abell 1367. Lies 3.6' S of 3842 and appeared small and concentrated.

CGCG 097-101
Size= 1.0x0.8 , Mag B= 15.1

Located 7.5' SSE of 3842 and adjacent a mag 14.8 star to the south. Very faint with a tight core.

IC 2951
Size= 1.5x0.4' , Mag V= 13.5

Located 15' SW of 3842. Sits at the western end of a row of three mag 12-13 stars. Faint and elongated.

UGC 6683
Size= 1x0.4' , Mag B= 15.2

Located 2' west of IC2951, very faint and appeared slightly elongated E-W.
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Old 15-02-2016, 09:10 AM
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Another excellent report Sab. Like Eugene, I am envious of the clear nights and the opportunity to pack in some productive observing.
Thanks
Steve.
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Old 15-02-2016, 01:47 PM
bigjoe (JOSEPH)
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dso observations

Love these reports Sab!

Must try for some of the ones in Hydra that you chose from near Penrith.

Noticed again , time schedules etc, that you've picked the gem in Fornax NGC 1365; some say you can detect the bar in 6", but overlooked say NGC 1097, which to me in Sydney I find easier to detect- these are both loverly barred spirals and a fair amount of detail can be seen in 12"+; but you've done this all with a modest aperture these days of 8"-well done!!

Just goes to show what can be accomplished at dark sites with a nice dob etc and patience!

Wished more would give these detailed reports so we know what we can expect to see.

bigjoe
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Old 15-02-2016, 06:54 PM
Tropo-Bob (Bob)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjoe View Post
Love these reports Sab!

...but you've done this all with a modest aperture these days of 8"-well done!!

Just goes to show what can be accomplished at dark sites with a nice dob etc and patience!

Wished more would give these detailed reports so we know what we can expect to see.

bigjoe
Totally agree with all the above. Well Said.

.
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Old 16-02-2016, 07:43 AM
Bombardon (Eugene)
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All you folks are giving me inspiration and motivation to really get going when our lovely(!) moon again disappears. Although I have dropped down from my awkward home build and home figured 16" to the more sensible for my state(!) 10" F5 I find it so much more comfortable and I think there will still be enough up these for those crisp winter nights. Keep up this great visual reporting and we might even have an eye piece viewing group by the end of winter. Love the pictures but the sheer joy of all those faint fussy reports and Joe with his doubles will keep my very old engine stoked
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Old 16-02-2016, 12:26 PM
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Hi SAb,

Enjoyed your report mate, lots of lovely stuff there.

The NGC 5084 NGC 5068 region near the Virgo/Hydra border is stuffed full of interesting stuff.

-68 is a galaxy that is structurally quite similar to our Milky Way, though somewhat smaller. It is a possible outlying member of the M83 / Centaurus A* group.

I remember my first visit there in the 18" (had seen it before in 10") because I was surprised by how easy it is to see the bar *and* spiral arms. It's a lovely galaxy. I have some observations of my own to post in a few days from 7 February. Will put them up soon.

Best,

L.
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Old 17-02-2016, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjoe View Post
Love these reports Sab!

Must try for some of the ones in Hydra that you chose from near Penrith.

Noticed again , time schedules etc, that you've picked the gem in Fornax NGC 1365; some say you can detect the bar in 6", but overlooked say NGC 1097, which to me in Sydney I find easier to detect- these are both loverly barred spirals and a fair amount of detail can be seen in 12"+; but you've done this all with a modest aperture these days of 8"-well done!!

Just goes to show what can be accomplished at dark sites with a nice dob etc and patience!

Wished more would give these detailed reports so we know what we can expect to see.

bigjoe
cheers mate! I only regret not using more magnification on 1365, not familiar with observing face on spirals as my previous light polluted location made them a write off so never bothered with them. Dark skies make all the difference. I can see more with my 8" here than my 12" back in my old backyard in Melbourne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombardon View Post
All you folks are giving me inspiration and motivation to really get going when our lovely(!) moon again disappears. Although I have dropped down from my awkward home build and home figured 16" to the more sensible for my state(!) 10" F5 I find it so much more comfortable and I think there will still be enough up these for those crisp winter nights. Keep up this great visual reporting and we might even have an eye piece viewing group by the end of winter. Love the pictures but the sheer joy of all those faint fussy reports and Joe with his doubles will keep my very old engine stoked
Get out there and you did yourself a favour by getting a scope that you are willing to handle, you will use it a lot more and get out there rather than debating with yourself. That is why I have my 8" to complement the 12", it is much quicker and easier to setup and I will be out there when I otherwise might've said "I don't feel like it". Let's hope visual astronomy becomes more popular on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngcles View Post
Hi SAb,

Enjoyed your report mate, lots of lovely stuff there.

The NGC 5084 NGC 5068 region near the Virgo/Hydra border is stuffed full of interesting stuff.

-68 is a galaxy that is structurally quite similar to our Milky Way, though somewhat smaller. It is a possible outlying member of the M83 / Centaurus A* group.

I remember my first visit there in the 18" (had seen it before in 10") because I was surprised by how easy it is to see the bar *and* spiral arms. It's a lovely galaxy. I have some observations of my own to post in a few days from 7 February. Will put them up soon.

Best,

L.
Thanks Les. Great to see you back here! Curiously, NGC5084 is represented by a very large symbol in the MSA when in reality it is much smaller.

Also did some sweeping of the Milky Way in Carina and surrounds. Absolutely ridiculous experience. My god I never seen anything like it. The amount of stars, the clusters , it was epic. The nebula itself was more vivid unfiltered than with the OIII from my Melbourne location.
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Old 18-02-2016, 06:43 AM
N1 (Mirko)
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Hi Sab, enjoyed your reports. I'll be trying some of these targets myself next time I do some DSO work. We know visual (and also 8" f/6) is the way to go, don't we
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Old 24-02-2016, 01:18 PM
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Super to see the scope working so well for you!

I have enjoyed your obs, but have a question. How do you note what you see and do? I have given up using an ordinary note pad, because it reduces dark adaption, no matter how dim the red light. I guess that a place paper pad and white pen would be the go? But then, maybe younger eyes would be of benefit too!

Wren
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Old 24-02-2016, 11:49 PM
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Super to see the scope working so well for you!

I have enjoyed your obs, but have a question. How do you note what you see and do? I have given up using an ordinary note pad, because it reduces dark adaption, no matter how dim the red light. I guess that a place paper pad and white pen would be the go? But then, maybe younger eyes would be of benefit too!

Wren
Hi Wren, good to hear from you mate! How's the hobby treating you these days?

After using this scope for a good while on all targets under all conditions and seeing from crap to epic, I can only say it is excellent

I just use paper with a clipboard to take notes. I use one of those adjustable red LED astronomy flashlights, mine being a Celestron USA made model from 1998! I haven't noticed any issues with my dark adaption. What's funny is that I can see my stuff and surroundings from this dark site almost as well as from my light polluted suburban Melbourne backyard. I remember reading an article in S&T about the bortle scale, and it stated that at skies this dark, I should basically not be able to see anything! But if I had a newspaper, I probably could just about read it!

Last edited by pgc hunter; 25-02-2016 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 27-02-2016, 12:33 PM
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Thanks for that, Sab. I'll put the reduced dark adaption to old eyes!

Enjoying a simple Astro life now. The C9.25 Evo is quite neat, making for leisurely and pretty accurate poking around the sky, all controlled from my iPad running Sky Safari 4 Pro. Easy and simple.
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Old 01-03-2016, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenswale View Post
Thanks for that, Sab. I'll put the reduced dark adaption to old eyes!

Enjoying a simple Astro life now. The C9.25 Evo is quite neat, making for leisurely and pretty accurate poking around the sky, all controlled from my iPad running Sky Safari 4 Pro. Easy and simple.
Sounds good. Sometimes I find myself wishing I had an Argo Navis or something, it would make things a lot easier! I seem to recall you had a 12" lightbridge?
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