Go Back   IceInSpace > General Astronomy > General Chat

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #21  
Old 23-11-2009, 10:31 AM
Omaroo's Avatar
Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
Let there be night...

Omaroo is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hobart, TAS
Posts: 7,639
You're failing to acknowledge how it works Claude. I'm guessing that you may not've actually been there.

Wages are typically set at (for any one industry) a known percentage below what is considered an "award" basic wage - to be made up in tips that are EXPECTED to be paid direct by the customer. Don't confuse "charity" with tips - they are nothing to do with each other. Tips are wages paid by the customer to the worker direct - rather than to the business, that's all. The customer has the option to pay more than required - which then properly goes to the worker and NOT the business owner. If a worker decides to skite off and perform their work poorly, then there is a mechanism that results in them not being paid for what they agreed to otherwise do - ie. provide service.

You're inferring that they are underpaid, poor souls. They're not - unless you don't understand the system and refuse to pay them their entitlement.

What they probably should do is stop referring to tips as "gratuity". That's misleading. This is a historic term and really shouldn't still be used in the context that it is.
  #22  
Old 23-11-2009, 10:34 AM
renormalised's Avatar
renormalised (Carl)
No More Infinities

renormalised is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Townsville
Posts: 9,698
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
That may be Claude - but that's how it's been in the USA for decades - and it's worked, by and large. The tip system is designed to FILL the hole left by minimum wages and that's why people over there are upset by fools who come into the country refusing to pay because they don't need to at home. it's not as though workers over in the US are ultimately underpaid - it's just that their pay comes from two sources - wages and tips rather than wages alone. To add to that - if good service is given then the workers who are willing to work harder to provide that service are rewarded for it. In that light - it's a very good system.
It's worked by and large, Chris, because the workers have allowed it to, seeing that it's part of their work culture to supplement their wages with handouts (which is basically what a tip is...."I've done well, please give me more"....almost Dickensian). The fact that governments in the US have allowed this practice to go on for decades just shows you how much they actually give a rat's about the welfare of their workers, especially those near the bottom of the wages rung. Many restaurants and food outlets take advantage of tipping, that's why the minimum wage is so low compared with places like here and elsewhere. It's nothing more than another form of exploitation..."I'll make my profits and bugger you Jack, you get the rest of your money from somewhere else".

I've worked in the hospitality industry here in Oz and even though the wages here aren't much chop themselves, I'd much prefer to work here than in the US. At least I'd know my wages were guaranteed to be paid to me at the specified rate and that the income was stable, not subject to the whims of the customers and bosses.

But, as they say, each to themselves and if the workers in the US want to live like that, then that's their problem. If they were smart, they'd make it clear to both the business owners and the government that they should be paid a half decent minimum wage, that was set in legislation and guaranteed to be paid.

What these business people and the government forget about is this, if the workers didn't work in the industry or they decided that enough was enough, these businesses would go broke. You can't have a business like hospitality if no one will work for you.
  #23  
Old 23-11-2009, 10:42 AM
Omaroo's Avatar
Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
Let there be night...

Omaroo is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hobart, TAS
Posts: 7,639
I'm just wondering where I said that I like or agree with the system Carl. If I were in hospitality - which I've never been - then I think that I'd prefer a fixed wage too. At least I could bank on it. What I'm saying is that from living in the USA or a number of years both on the East and West coasts, my observations were that the workers themselves are pretty OK with the system in general. They know that they can get more than the fixed amount if they please the customer. Note I said "please", not just work harder. Note that tips over there are RARELY IF EVER not paid by a customer. It's the foreigners who don't know the system that are the usual culprits - hence stories like the one here. I don't know of any American I met that didn't pay the tip willingly - even if they didn't pay more than expected. You just don't not pay! There's very little risk of not getting your expected tips for a nights work.

I actually had a friend over there who was putting herself though uni at Harvard and worked in a classy restaurant to help. She would have, every few of weeks, a higher than normal set of bills to pay. All she needed to do was to put on the charm and she'd cover the bills in extra tips over a couple of nights. It worked for her.
  #24  
Old 23-11-2009, 10:49 AM
renormalised's Avatar
renormalised (Carl)
No More Infinities

renormalised is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Townsville
Posts: 9,698
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
LOL! I'm just wondering where I said that I like or agree with the system. If I were in hospitality - which I've never been - then I think that I'd prefer a fixed wage. At least I could bank on it. What I'm saying is that from living in the USA or a number of years both on the East and West coasts, my observation is that the workers are pretty OK with the system. They know that they can get more than the fixed amount if they please the customer. Note I said "please", not just work harder.
That's something you've inferred by what I wrote and it's not what I said

What I said was is basically what you have said...it's part of their work culture and they live with it. As I had put it, the whole system is Dickensian...in actual fact it's in the 18th and 19th Centuries when tipping developed as precisely that...go cap in hand to the customer to beg for more money in order to supplement lousy wages (if they got any at all). I would have thought that in the proceeding 2 centuries (or at least from the later half of last century) that our work practices and ethics would've evolved beyond indentured slavery. Seems not.
  #25  
Old 23-11-2009, 10:53 AM
Bloodbean's Avatar
Bloodbean (Troy)
Registered User

Bloodbean is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Robinson View Post
The gratuity is a optional as far as I have heard and I've never given one by the way .

Since when was it made compulsory to pay an extra 18% tip (which is a pretty big BTW) over there ?

Another reason why I never plan on visting the USA , really , why would you want too ?

I think this story is a load of bull dust ....
I feel sorry for people like you...
  #26  
Old 23-11-2009, 10:58 AM
renormalised's Avatar
renormalised (Carl)
No More Infinities

renormalised is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Townsville
Posts: 9,698
Quote:
I actually had a friend over there who was putting herself though uni at Harvard and worked in a classy restaurant to help. She would have, every few of weeks, a higher than normal set of bills to pay. All she needed to do was to put on the charm and she'd cover the bills in extra tips over a couple of nights. It worked for her.
That is a prime example of the crassness that's expected in the US in order to make ends meet. I feel sorry for her that she'd even have to go about "laying it on thick" in order to cover her expenses. The fact that she even had to do so is an indictment on their culture...no wonder they're $10 trillion in debt. Unfortunately for them, no one else wants to pay them a tip so now they can't cover themselves...the "charm offensive" won't work anymore.
  #27  
Old 23-11-2009, 11:19 AM
OzRob's Avatar
OzRob (Rob)
Registered User

OzRob is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Thailand
Posts: 446
It's not a good advertisement for the establishment concerned. I know that if it was a restaurant close to where I lived I would not go there after hearing something like this.
  #28  
Old 23-11-2009, 11:25 AM
Omaroo's Avatar
Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
Let there be night...

Omaroo is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hobart, TAS
Posts: 7,639
Carl - she lays it on thicky in order to get more than she normally would - and probably more than an Australian working here in an equivalent role might get truth be known. She can nearly double her salary - which is already "reasonable" in her eyes. Not bad - and at least she has a mechanism by which she can accomplish it. It's not as though she has to do party tricks. She just smiles a bit more and people react accordingly. What's wrong with that? Her uni fees are astronomical (Harvard!!!!), and she's not there on a grant or scholarship - so it's not as though she could hope to cover them working in hospitality there or even here. Making more than the standard wage is something to applaud - not denigrate. Again, the inference is that she's being underpaid and made to dance nude to come up to what we'd call a normal wage, and that this is typical in America - it's simply not the case.

The notion that we should all be paid a standard wage that is inflexible, for the sale of it being stable, quick frankly smacks of well... we may as well be wearing standard grey.

Last edited by Omaroo; 23-11-2009 at 11:38 AM.
  #29  
Old 23-11-2009, 11:39 AM
FredSnerd (Claude)
Registered User

FredSnerd is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canberra
Posts: 474
Its so depressing how willing we are to be so hard on ourselves that we cant even see the wretchedness of an employer who wont even pay a minimum wage (because over the years they have hijacked for themselves the benefit of what was really a well intentioned gesture between patron and employee) and yet no even bat an eye when millions are paid in bonuses to corporate executives and trillions are handed over to bail out the richest institutions on earth because it seems now that we took them too seriously and that they were only really playing for funsies.Oh but look!!!! Keep an eye on those working people and make sure they dont get away with anything because really, they'll skin you dry.
  #30  
Old 23-11-2009, 11:48 AM
Omaroo's Avatar
Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
Let there be night...

Omaroo is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hobart, TAS
Posts: 7,639
WHERE Claude, has it been said that employers aren't paying a "minimum" wage? Jeez! American workers in the hospitality industry ARE paid a minimum wage, beyond which they have the capacity to expand it IF they take the trouble to. Even if they don't, standard tips bring them up to what government determines is a liveable minimum - just like it is HERE.

Cikey - what a bunch of "whoa is me's" you fellas are. No-one discussed corporate salaries in relation to the original thread - why should you? What have they do do with the topic at hand?
  #31  
Old 23-11-2009, 11:52 AM
FredSnerd (Claude)
Registered User

FredSnerd is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canberra
Posts: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
Carl - she lays it on thicky in order to get more than she normally would - and probably more than an Australian working here in an equivalent role might get truth be known. She can nearly double her salary - which is already "reasonable" in her eyes.
Chris, you will forgive me but this account of how it works on the ground is, well, a bit fanciful I'm affriad. She just doubles her $$$ which, in her eyes was always reasonable even though its below minimum wage. Please!
  #32  
Old 23-11-2009, 11:53 AM
FredSnerd (Claude)
Registered User

FredSnerd is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canberra
Posts: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
What a completely ludicrous thing to say.

In the USA, most waitstaff and bartenders in restaurants are paid below the minimum wage, because the employees are expected to make up the difference, so to speak, in tips.
Thats what you said Chris
  #33  
Old 23-11-2009, 11:54 AM
renormalised's Avatar
renormalised (Carl)
No More Infinities

renormalised is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Townsville
Posts: 9,698
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
Carl - she lays it on thicky in order to get more than she normally would - and probably more than an Australian working here in an equivalent role might get truth be known. She can nearly double her salary - which is already "reasonable" in her eyes. Not bad - and at least she has a mechanism by which she can accomplish it. It's not as though she has to do party tricks. She just smiles a bit more and people react accordingly. What's wrong with that? Her uni fees are astronomical (Harvard!!!!), and she's not there on a grant or scholarship - so it's not as though she could hope to cover them working in hospitality there or even here. Making more than the standard wage is something to applaud - not denigrate. Again, the inference is that she's being underpaid and made to dance nude to come up to what we'd call a normal wage, and that's typical in America.

The notion that we should all be paid a standard wage that is inflexible, for the sale of it being stable, quick frankly smacks of well... we may as well be wearing standard grey.
It's still a party trick, no matter how well you dress it up. A person's wages shouldn't be determined on how courteous she/he is to people or whether she/he provides good service, it's supposed to be based on how long they work for and the rate for the job in question. That she should be courteous to the customers is a given, it's part of her job description. It's good to see what she makes from it, but why should anyone have to jump through extra hoops in order to make up their wages...and what was her standard wage to begin with?? It can't have been too great if she's doubling it through tips.

It's a miracle she put herself through Harvard...I know what the fees are like for courses over in the US. I contemplated doing postgrad studies there a few years back, till I saw how much I would've had to fork out just to even live on campus, let alone pay for tuition fees and such. However, she must've had extra income from some other source...just to do an undergrad degree over there can cost upto $30-50K a year, depending on the course. Heaven help her if she was doing postgrad!!!.

At least she was working somewhere with a bit of class...or at least with the ethical position not afforded to so many of her workmates elsewhere over there. Like I said previously, it's an indictment on their culture in general.
  #34  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:00 PM
Omaroo's Avatar
Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
Let there be night...

Omaroo is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hobart, TAS
Posts: 7,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
..and what was her standard wage to begin with?? It can't have been too great if she's doubling it through tips.

It's a miracle she put herself through Harvard...I know what the fees are like for courses over in the US. I contemplated doing postgrad studies there a few years back, till I saw how much I would've had to fork out just to even live on campus, let alone pay for tuition fees and such. However, she must've had extra income from some other source...just to do an undergrad degree over there can cost upto $30-50K a year, depending on the course. Heaven help her if she was doing postgrad!!!.

At least she was working somewhere with a bit of class...or at least with the ethical position not afforded to so many of her workmates elsewhere over there. Like I said previously, it's an indictment on their culture in general.
LOL! No - no-one could ever hope to put themselves through an ivy league school on restaurant wages. Her family is pretty well off - and come from Rhode Island. She's just "doing her bit" to contribute- which is pretty admirable of her. She was brought up on high moral standards.

As far as doubling her wage in tips - it ISN'T hard!!!! She gets about US$12.00 per hour as a table waitress, which is pretty normal in that business there. One tip along would see her get a $20. I don't see that happening over here.
  #35  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:02 PM
Kal's Avatar
Kal (Andrew)
1¼" ñì®våñá

Kal is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,845
I seem to be in the minority because having experienced both systems, I think that the US system based around tips is far better than the Australian system. Australian service at restaurants falls far short of the quality of service in the USA, and it is because over there you HAVE to provide good customer service to guarantee your income.
  #36  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:04 PM
FredSnerd (Claude)
Registered User

FredSnerd is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canberra
Posts: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
LOL! No - no-one could ever hope to put themselves through an ivy league school on restaurant wages. Her family is pretty well off - and come from Rhode Island. She's just "doing her bit" to contribute- which is pretty admirable of her. She was brought up on high moral standards.

As far as doubling her wage in tips - it ISN'T hard!!!! She gets about US$12.00 per hour as a table waitress, which is pretty normal in that business there. One tip along would see her get a $20. I don't see that happening over here.
I gotta meet this lady. She's perfect. I think I'm in love.
  #37  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:11 PM
FredSnerd (Claude)
Registered User

FredSnerd is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canberra
Posts: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
I seem to be in the minority because having experienced both systems, I think that the US system based around tips is far better than the Australian system. Australian service at restaurants falls far short of the quality of service in the USA, and it is because over there you HAVE to provide good customer service to guarantee your income.
Actually Andrew I was in the USA in 97. I didnt share your experiance I have to say. They wernt too bad but not even close to the standard of service we get in Australia. And the worst thing was food quality and cleanliness. Did'nt come close to Australian standards in my opinion. As for which is the better system well that depends of course on what your criteria is. I cant say that I would use the criteria you are using.
  #38  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:12 PM
Omaroo's Avatar
Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
Let there be night...

Omaroo is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hobart, TAS
Posts: 7,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredSnerd View Post
Thats what you said Chris
Yes, BUT - and it's a BIG BUT.... "minimum" refers to what they get as their collective standard acceptable weekly take-home. The boss DOES pay them less than this - but it's the way this structure works that sees their total come back into the realms of reasonable pay....

I.e.:

Weekly take-home is considered good at $500 per week (for instance).

This is made up of (excluding taxes for the sake of simplicity):

$350 in hourly wages from the "boss".
$150 in tips (or wages) direct from the patrons. These are NOT negotiable, or paid based on how "pleased" a customer is. They are EXPECTED.

How can the boss be "ripping" the worker off IF (and this is the kicker) it's EXPECTED from the patrons - nationally - that the extra $150 or MORE comes from them to bring up their total to what we'd expect a good wage to be over here. The only difference between there and here is this. If a meal cost me $50 here - I'd give the total to the restaurant owner, and out of that they'd pay the labour component to the worker who served the table. In the US, I'd pay probably $40 or less for the meal (better value typically - if, as Claude says, not always as nice) and give the waitress $10 as part of her wagein the "form" of a "tip". That's 20%, but you get my drift. The owner is happy, because part of his/her wages bill is being paid by me, and therefore they can provide the meal cheaper.

I fail to see how this can be considered unfair! If the patrons (like some here on IIS) refused to pay tips as a matter of point, and this became endemic - then things would have to change. Remembers - the term "tip" is merely a historic one. It's really "wage component number two".

What you've all missed, sadly, is that for those that wish to work harder and "nicer", they're rewarded by tips that usually exceed the standard - bringing their total wage well up on what the "standard" wage is - and this is a bad thing?

Last edited by Omaroo; 23-11-2009 at 12:22 PM.
  #39  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:13 PM
matt's Avatar
matt
6000 post club member

matt is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Launceston, Australia
Posts: 6,570
Chris....

Pull out now...for the sake of your health, man!!!!!
  #40  
Old 23-11-2009, 12:15 PM
Omaroo's Avatar
Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
Let there be night...

Omaroo is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hobart, TAS
Posts: 7,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt View Post
Chris....

Pull out now...for the sake of your health, man!!!!!
Yep - good advice Matt.

Head...brick wall.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 09:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
Testar
Advertisement