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Old 14-02-2013, 08:42 PM
DJT (David)
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Atik 460EX v Starlight xpress SXVR-H694C

Am pulling the trigger on CCD.

Having decided to go for a H694 chip, I get caught by the "which manufacturer" question.

Both Atik (460EX) and Starlight xpress (SXVR-H694C) are running on this chip but I have no experience of either in term of build quality or support. If anyone is able to provide experiences that would be appreciated

cheers

Last edited by DJT; 14-02-2013 at 10:35 PM. Reason: too wordy
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  #2  
Old 15-02-2013, 04:15 AM
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Tandum (Robin)
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The QHY22 also uses that chip and support for QHY is pretty good in Oz. However, I'm not sure if they do a colour version. You'd have to ask Theo here -> http://www.gamaelectronics.com.au/

I have an atik 11000 and I know a previous owner had to send it to Portugal for a fix. Similarly, people I know with starlight cameras have had to send them to the UK for work. It seems they just sell them here not support them.
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Old 15-02-2013, 07:27 AM
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I checked with Theo at Gama a short while ago on the QHY version. He did not think the QHY22 was released yet and had no pricing. He recommended the QHY9 or other 8300 camera for now.

Last edited by Shiraz; 16-02-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 15-02-2013, 12:08 PM
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Screwdriverone (Chris)
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I would give a +1 to the Atik, my 314L+ performs flawlessly as you will see from my rapid progression with DSOs since I bought it late last year.

I can't comment on support as I haven't needed any. Its capture program and quality of images are so impressive it should be illegal.

Cheers

Chris
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Old 15-02-2013, 01:25 PM
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Merlin66 (Ken)
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I have and use the ATiK16ic, ATiK16icS, and the ATiK 314L+. Also the ATiK EFW all under AstroArt.
For me they do what it says on the lid, just work 100%
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Old 15-02-2013, 07:01 PM
DJT (David)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tandum View Post
The QHY22 also uses that chip and support for QHY is pretty good in Oz. However, I'm not sure if they do a colour version. You'd have to ask Theo here -> http://www.gamaelectronics.com.au/

I have an atik 11000 and I know a previous owner had to send it to Portugal for a fix. Similarly, people I know with starlight cameras have had to send them to the UK for work. It seems they just sell them here not support them.
Cheers Tandum. Looked through the QHY stuff today following useful QHY thread you kicked off and it looks like they dont have the colour version of the 21/22 at the moment but good info all the same. Am pretty much stuck on the Sony chip so its still a shootout between Atik and S Xpress

All, Looking for experiences on S Xpress just to round this out.
Thanks for feedback. Really helpful
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Old 16-02-2013, 06:40 PM
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The sample images on Starlight Express site are very poor. I wonder if its the chip, the imager, the scope, the seeing???

I personally would wait for images to appear to prove this chip. But that's me being careful. Its the tiny well capacity that worries me. It could lead to star bloat.

Greg.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DJT View Post
Cheers Tandum. Looked through the QHY stuff today following useful QHY thread you kicked off and it looks like they dont have the colour version of the 21/22 at the moment but good info all the same. Am pretty much stuck on the Sony chip so its still a shootout between Atik and S Xpress

All, Looking for experiences on S Xpress just to round this out.
Thanks for feedback. Really helpful
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Old 16-02-2013, 11:55 PM
DJT (David)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
The sample images on Starlight Express site are very poor. I wonder if its the chip, the imager, the scope, the seeing???

I personally would wait for images to appear to prove this chip. But that's me being careful. Its the tiny well capacity that worries me. It could lead to star bloat.

Greg.
Good point. I may be ok, I think as due to suburban location I will have to keep my subs fairly short, say 6 mins or so with a filter. LP here is a shocker. Scope won't be much faster than a 5 inch frac at F5 ish me thinks. I assume then the smaller wells should not be a big issue .

Your comment on seeing other images is a good one. Olly Prentice did a compare between the Atik4000 and the 460ex recently on the SGL forum which was quite interesting
http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/16...4000-shootout/

Not from a starlight but at least it's the same chip.

Thanks again.
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Old 17-02-2013, 10:07 AM
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The stars look good in that image. It must've just been a dud image on the other site.

High QE, low noise and a small chip can be a good thing with some setups getting that magnification factor (crop factor) for galaxies. Also means less worry about coma, flex, correctors.

I figured Kodak CCDs have had no progress for the last few years that I am aware of so it makes sense Sony has overtaken them. Now Sony need to put out some large chips as Kodak is still the king there.

Greg.
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Old 17-02-2013, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
I figured Kodak CCDs have had no progress for the last few years that I am aware of so it makes sense Sony has overtaken them. Now Sony need to put out some large chips as Kodak is still the king there.
Sony have enough of their own problems with cash flow. The biggest chips they seem to make are full frame as used in the Nikon D800 (7360 x 1000, 4.88μm) and Sony a99 (6000 x 4000, 5.97μm).

Their are unlikely to make something bigger without potential to make a good profit. Compared with DSLRs, astro cameras are a small market.
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Old 19-02-2013, 07:12 PM
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Sony have enough of their own problems with cash flow. The biggest chips they seem to make are full frame as used in the Nikon D800 (7360 x 1000, 4.88μm) and Sony a99 (6000 x 4000, 5.97μm).

Their are unlikely to make something bigger without potential to make a good profit. Compared with DSLRs, astro cameras are a small market.

Yes the full frame sensors are likely to be CMOS. But with the latest Sony CMOS you have to wonder if CCD is still better than CMOS as an imaging chip. I don't really know but I think it had a lot of potential now it may have lacked before.

Greg.
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Old 19-02-2013, 08:02 PM
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There's a bit of chatter about a guy in Canada removing the bayer layer from nikon/sony colour sensors to make them mono. It looks like QHY has sent him some QHY10's as a trial.

And in this one he's converting DSLR's.
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Old 19-02-2013, 10:56 PM
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There is a great deal of mis-understanding when it comes to low noise, QE and dynamic range of CCD's.

The new Sony chip is not bad, but for Sony (or anyone else) to call it a 16bit system is a joke.

Well depth is about 20k e-. Read noise 7e- hence the very best dynamic range you can get is about 2,800 levels.

16 bits of data = 65,536 levels.

So our Sony sensor is a little more than 10 bits. Resolve any finer, and you are simply resolving noise.

QE is quoted as 77%. Again where did this get pulled from???

Someone please show me this on the OEM Sony data sheet. (thanks, I have a copy, mine only shows relative QE )

Frankly this is amazing for a 4.5 micron pixel... hence I'd treat it with a grain of salt....thinking of salt (and pepper)

I have long suspected Sony bleed charge to get their sensors to look so clean (Lord knows I've has enough conversations with Terry Platt at SX over the years on this Chestnut )

But having looked at examples of the Sony ICX694ALG with narrow-band, I am left wondering "what happened to the shadow detail"??

I'd say little or none is their (Sony) hallmark..by the way, it is very hard to pick a thermal electron from one that arrived from the sky...

I have a a Sony ICX694ALG chipped camera. Works fine for planetary/solar, in fact great...but it does posterize...making me wonder about the sad 10 bit range...

But for touring the dim-dark-deep-sky, give me a noisy, thumping great American 400-cubic-inch-QE CCD any day.

Just my 2 cents worth.....
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Old 20-02-2013, 12:31 AM
DJT (David)
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...
But for touring the dim-dark-deep-sky, give me a noisy, thumping great American 400-cubic-inch-QE CCD any day.

Just my 2 cents worth.....
All comments read with a great deal of interest. Thanks Peter.
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Old 20-02-2013, 10:30 AM
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Hi David

Hope this is not too much of a red herring, but just just in case you hadn't noticed, Apogee now has the 694 chip in their lineup.

http://www.ccd.com/pdf/A694.pdf

might be worth a look at the specs if you wanted to go for a higher end solution or just to be re-assured that the other camera makers are are likely to be able to deliver on their specs. Note that they give two different read noise figures - looks like the quoted dynamic range refers to the noisier high speed mode - the chip is much quieter in low speed mode.

regards Ray

Last edited by Shiraz; 20-02-2013 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 20-02-2013, 08:14 PM
DJT (David)
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Hi David

Hope this is not too much of a red herring, but just just in case you hadn't noticed, Apogee now has the 694 chip in their lineup.

http://www.ccd.com/pdf/A694.pdf

might be worth a look at the specs if you wanted to go for a higher end solution or just to be re-assured that the other camera makers are are likely to be able to deliver on their specs. Note that they give two different read noise figures - looks like the quoted dynamic range refers to the noisier high speed mode - the chip is much quieter in low speed mode.

regards Ray
Thanks Ray. Hadn't looked at the ascent range.
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Old 23-02-2013, 05:08 PM
orly_andico (Orly)
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cross-posted this thread on my thread at CN

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...vc=&PHPSESSID=
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Old 24-02-2013, 11:12 PM
DJT (David)
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cross-posted this thread on my thread at CN

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...vc=&PHPSESSID=
Cheers Orly, interesting read
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