Go Back   IceInSpace > General Astronomy > Astronomy and Amateur Science

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 05-03-2019, 04:12 PM
Stonius's Avatar
Stonius (Markus)
Registered User

Stonius is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,495
Why don't Jupiter's clouds mix to a uniform colour eventually?

I've seen explanations that 'it's convection'. Sure, that explains the movement and the bands, but not why they manage to remain so distinct.

You can pour milk in coffee and it will eventually mix through the action of convection. Convection itself is not something that prevents different elements from mixing together, so what gives? That thing looks more like coloured oils on water.

Markus

Last edited by Stonius; 05-03-2019 at 10:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-03-2019, 07:18 PM
Ukastronomer (Jeremy)
Feel free to edit my imag

Ukastronomer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Llandysul, WALES, UK
Posts: 1,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonius View Post
I've seen explanations that 'it's convection'. Sure, that explains the movement and the bands, but not why they manage to remain so distinct.

You can pour milk in coffee and it will eventually mix through the action of convection. Convection itself is not something that prevents different elements from mixing together, so what gives? That thing looks more like coloured oils on water.

Markus
Who knows, ................. "eventually" they may
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:37 PM
billdan's Avatar
billdan (Bill)
Registered User

billdan is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Narangba, SE QLD
Posts: 1,551
I think its because they are at different altitudes relative to each other, so never interact. According to Wiki the Great Red Spot is 8Km higher than the clouds below. The white bands of storms are higher in altitude than the brown bands of storms.

Last edited by billdan; 05-03-2019 at 10:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-03-2019, 12:47 AM
gary
Registered User

gary is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mt. Kuring-Gai
Posts: 5,927
I recollected reading this article a couple of years ago.
Apparently if you have a big garbage can and a rotating table you
can simulate Jupiter's atmosphere pretty well according to UCLA
geophysicists :-

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/uc...swirling-winds

Paper at Nature (subscription required) -
https://www.nature.com/articles/nphys4001
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:16 AM
Stonius's Avatar
Stonius (Markus)
Registered User

Stonius is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,495
Ah, thanks Gary, so it seems that the injection of turbulence from deep jets is the cause.

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:14 AM
multiweb's Avatar
multiweb (Marc)
ze frogginator

multiweb is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 22,062
Jovian cows.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:20 AM
bojan's Avatar
bojan
amateur

bojan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mt Waverley, VIC
Posts: 6,940
The reason is the same for Earth weather never to stabilize: energy influx from Sun and from planet inside (more so in Jupiter case).
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:50 AM
Stonius's Avatar
Stonius (Markus)
Registered User

Stonius is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by multiweb View Post
Jovian cows.
Jovine Bovines? :-D
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-03-2019, 11:02 AM
Stonius's Avatar
Stonius (Markus)
Registered User

Stonius is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by bojan View Post
The reason is the same for Earth weather never to stabilize: energy influx from Sun and from planet inside (more so in Jupiter case).
It's not the movement or even the bands that I was questioning. To that extent, equivalent examples can be seen all over the solar system. The earth itself has convective bands corresponding to equatorial, temperate and polar weather systems, if I recall correctly. It's the lack of mixing of colours that confused me - there needs to be some form of continuous generation and destruction of those colours in order to keep them separate.

By way of example, say you could dye an entire tropical cyclone on earth pink. I don't think anyone really thinks that in 2 years there would still be distinct 'pink systems' in our atmosphere.

The upwelling jets in the example above makes sense to me in terms of supplying fresh phosphor (or whatever chemicals) to the surface, which then subsides due to convection before it has a chance to mix to uniformity.

I'll attach the sort of image that made me start thinking about all this.

Best,

Markus
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (PHOTvScvADMf7asr6yCy7d3d180410.jpg)
109.1 KB140 views
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-03-2019, 12:40 PM
bojan's Avatar
bojan
amateur

bojan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mt Waverley, VIC
Posts: 6,940
Different colurs mean different chemistry and/or different temperatures and other factors..

Chemistry of Jupiter atmosphere is very volatile, changing from place to place depending on insolation changes and internal heating as well.

I am fully aware my explanation is maybe even simplistic..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-03-2019, 01:34 PM
gary
Registered User

gary is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mt. Kuring-Gai
Posts: 5,927
Smile Cliff, why is the sky blue?

Hi Markus,

Your question about why Jupiter's clouds just don't all mix together into
a single homogeneous colour is a good one.

When I read it, it reminded me a of passage in a wonderful 1989 book
entitled "The Cuckoo’s Egg: Tracking a Spy Through the Maze of
Computer Espionage"
by Clifford Stoll.

The book is a personal account by Stoll in tracking a computer hacker who
was gaining access to a computer that he was managing at the Lawrence
Berkeley National Laboratory.

The book itself is one of the most entertaining reads of the 20th Century
and is highly recommended.

By profession, Stoll was an astronomer. In the book he provides a hilarious
anecdote of appearing before an panel of professors who are assessing his
PhD dissertation.

All is going well when one of the professors asks, "Cliff, why is the sky blue?"

I just Googled and by luck there is this fabulous 2 minute 46 second
YouTube video from some years back when Stoll was interviewed by
the U.S. NBC network where he provides that account of the PhD interview.

I suspect like the question that Stoll is forced to try and answer in ever
increasing detail, the true answer to your question might well prove to
be as equally layered and complex

If you want a good laugh, I recommend this short video :-

https://youtu.be/yfm3MFj6LLU


As a postscript I was lucky enough to meet a couple of visitors from the
US last year, one of whom was a retired professor of astronomy.
During conversation I mentioned the Stoll "why is the sky blue" story
and as it turned out they not only knew the story, they were also
friends of Clifford Stoll.

Which might beg the question, "Why is the world so small at times?"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-03-2019, 03:31 PM
Wavytone
Registered User

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 4,147
Google "Pousse Cafe"
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:14 PM
Jeff's Avatar
Jeff
Starry Eyed

Jeff is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wonga Park
Posts: 692
Great question Markus!

I've done a few searches myself. Seems to be a combination effect of powerful convection currents, and varying gas types/densities.
I found the following article particularly interesting:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jessesh.../#6f90ab917ed0
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:01 PM
Stonius's Avatar
Stonius (Markus)
Registered User

Stonius is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Great question Markus!

I've done a few searches myself. Seems to be a combination effect of powerful convection currents, and varying gas types/densities.
I found the following article particularly interesting:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jessesh.../#6f90ab917ed0
Interesting article. Of course, only Jupiter would have a giant polar cyclone surrounded by 8 smaller cyclones. 😀
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (960x0.jpg)
94.2 KB150 views
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 20-03-2019, 10:44 AM
Sunfish's Avatar
Sunfish (Ray)
Registered User

Sunfish is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Wollongong
Posts: 1,909
So the apparent clouds and storms on Jupiter are more like aurora than vapour clouds on earth. .?

Cohesive magnetic lines.

Every planet and moon seems to have its surprising extremes. Ice oceans. Boiling gases. A universe of different worlds.

Interesting links.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 09:11 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Testar
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement