Catching up on 35 years of R&D and then going that little bit further is probably quicker and easier for a true innovator (who may well be an Aussie) than building a reputation for having a superior product to what's already out there. That will necessarily involve some early adopters taking a punt with some serious dollars (for an amateur). And I'm not sure the mount is where most would want to take that gamble these days. The real frontier I think is sensor technology, and to a lesser degree, optics. By cutting down required exposure times before saturation occurs, the mount will become less critical. And the prospect of greatly reduced data-capture times is a lot more attractive than another mount that does a good job at tracking and is locally made.
The better each "item" in our setup is the greater the chance of getting better data. Even with shorter exposure times, a good mount is still worthwhile.
I'm no expert on production of items like this, but perhaps there are other ways to efficiently produce a good mount by other means than milling out metal?
And as I mentioned in my previous post, it's the extra features that are needed to make the mount stand out, e.g. good set of access ports, cable management, etc. Software/firmware to do things like satellite tracking. Adding optional extras like GPS (and providing that data to attached computer), good network options (wired/wifi). It has to be backed up with good quality drivers as well (ASCOM and INDI). All these types of things won't be cheap for a new player.
All the more keen to see this happen now to stick it up Peter
Losmandy and I have been friends for over 30 years and can assure any would be start-ups that over that time,
we have kicked around many "new product ideas" including the early development and testing of the Losmandy Gemini system to try and sort cool from commercially viable.
Prof Rene Goerlich was also pivotal in developing the Gemini GoTo system. Rene' is one of the most brilliant electronic engineers I have ever met.
The original code was in assembler and included pointing modelling without the need for an external PC. It literally took years to debug and refine.
Quite a few cool concepts never got beyond prototypes....and as much as you think you CAD-CAM out some brilliant idea, getting the precision required in real metal is another job entirely.
One of Scott's favorite sayings when looking at a knock-off of his product is "The Chinese can't machine for $_it".
To stay in business with a niche product for that time is really quite remarkable. Any start-up, Aussie or otherwise, will need deep pockets for the serious amount of work to do,
then to compete, will have to market a product that is faster/better/cheaper than the like of Losmandy, Bisque, AP etc.
It will probably be as successful as the Oz car industry.....
(which reminds me...why are we still paying the Luxury Car Tax?? Oh, that's right to protect our non-existent local car manufacturing industry )
lazjen, the software time on that is the only realistic cost, the hardware is not a large fraction of these mounts,
- GPS - only needs to be timing mode and within 300m position accuracy, so about $35 in single units for the module
- Wifi / bluetooth, cheap hardware, just lots of software time to make sure its rock solid.
- Ethernet, pre-built in many processors with an external Phy and port, cheap and stable network stacks exist.
- Encoders, The actual detectors are not the cost, its usually the printing that has the cost, take a look at the eq8's approach for reference, and how they where so cheap they didn't even clean the PCB's! and used the flimsiest possible connector, which was then hand soldered, http://www.dangl.at/ausruest/eq8/eq8_e4.htm
About the CNC time, being able to reduce the number of operations and complexity of those operations cut down the costs considerably, you will have a mix of lathe parts for concentricity and mill for pockets and other non concentric features, being able to build within basic machine shop capacity would go a long way
Take standard stock sizes and try and build towards fitting as much as you can to fitting it into that so the external surfaces only need to be skimmed,
Again the more I look, the less I see the cost of the product in the hardware, and at this point I wonder about even the machining.
lazjen, the software time on that is the only realistic cost, the hardware is not a large fraction of these mounts,
.........Again the more I look, the less I see the cost of the product in the hardware, and at this point I wonder about even the machining.
Seriously?
While that may be true of cheaper mounts, I know for a fact some Losmandy parts go through about half a dozen processes after they machined before they can be installed into a mount and with some serious accuracy.
The worm gears are good to about 1/10,000th. And the RA/DEc gears are individually dialed in for perfect concentricity. That takes time and money.
I suspect the market would not be kind to cheap and nasty.
I don't disagree with the cost of the components, it's the whole package deal, and yeah I am quite aware that software will be a big cost. There are ways of reducing the software cost by making as much as possible open source and standards based. In fact, mount that did the hardware side well, and provided open firmware/software - that would be brilliant.
I still think that while it can be done (making a good quality mount to compete at the high end), there's very little chance of a lower price. Depending on the difference, feature set, etc, that's not necessarily enough to kill it, but it will make it harder survive in such a small market (even if exports are done).
Hi everyone, we have started rolling the ball of Australian Made stuff by creating a brand called Axtroworx and out first products where Pier Plates, Dovetails, and now Truss Tube Newtonians...
We are working on the design for a direct drive mount...... i can not say more, but all your suport will be needed in order to make this a reality..
Australian made license approved
Name Trademark registered.
Webpage in the making www.astroworx.com.au
very exiting things, lots of work done and to be done....
Happened to stop by & visit Diego & Paul at Sidereal Trading in Melbourne yesterday.
Have to say I'm absolutely gobsmakked by the operation they have put together and the quality of work that they are producing in house is astoundingly professional!
Can't comment on any proposed mounts, but I've now seen one their finished 12" f4 truss Newts in the flesh and it's a highly desirable, beautifully finished telescope. I saw many others in various configurations in advanced stages of their build as well so the word is clearly getting out that First class 'scopes can and are being made right here in Oz.
The guys do it all in house, CAD, CNC machine, Lathe, 3D printing - the works. The new owner of the pictured 12" scope (that's Diego in the picture, not the new owner) is a well known, highly awarded Astrophotographer who commands great respect and that's a huge endorsement for the quality of the build in itself!
I forsee only good things happening for this company, and recommend you get in early with your order if you're after one of their stunning instruments!
Hi everyone, we have started rolling the ball of Australian Made stuff by creating a brand called Axtroworx and out first products where Pier Plates, Dovetails, and now Truss Tube Newtonians...
And then you took the time to read Diego's post. (Rolly roll eyes)
What's your problem with that? I was not disparaging of Diego's venture in any way.
Suffice to say established names such as AP, Bisque and Losmandy have been around for several decades....
and have a heck a lot of R&D knowledge under their belts as a result.
To make inroads into the precision EQ mounting market will take seriously hard work, investment and quality product. .....my turn now ...
What's your problem with that? I was not disparaging of Diego's venture in any way.
Sorry to everyone wanting to read about the possibility of an Aussie mount.
My original post of sticking it up you when Diego succeeds was simply stating that I will love to see egg on your face when, having replied to a thread where an Australian innovator and manufacturer of astro gear states an intention to (indeed, reports progress on) developing a mount, you reply with something ending with "tell him he's dreaming".
Of course we/I now see that you missed Diego's post, you weren't to know! You're a busy guy! I'm bloody loving watching you dig in over it, as always
Also enjoying your name dropping Losmandy from the olden days and reporting his sublime observation of "The Chinese can't machine for s#%t" after looking at a single example of a single knock off.
He was right though, hey? His mounts are producing all the best astro images and all the Chinese ones fall apart after a year or two . To me, the cherry on top of this broadest of generalizations, is that its one of your favourite sayings.
Oh, and that's all I'll say here, I feel like a mug for taking the time to say this much! I'm stoked for Diego's mount!
Sorry to everyone wanting to read about the possibility of an Aussie mount...
!
Well, to be brutally frank, I think the chances of commercial success for Diego's mount are not great.
That is not a comment on his team's expertise....the mount may be a ripper! If they come up with a game changing product I'd be more than happy to support it.
...but unless they are competitive and can get export sales (the Oz market is simply not there ) it will be *extremely* difficult to make a go of it.
e.g. RIP Francis Lord Optics, Astro-Optical Supplies, Anssen Technologies
I for one really have some issues with my Losmandy Mount - OK the mount is well built but some of the tech they use is old school, accessories and parts cost a fortune to replace, eg take the hand controller for instance you have just got to belong to their forum to see the number of issues that arise with thee and others relating to the mount and these are not in the majority user related. When you consider here you'll pay near on $8000 for a Losmandy G11-G2 mount from some supplier(s), I would expect a lot more or better from them compared to say an EQ8. Like I said I for one would support a local manufacturer who could supply a quality EQ mount under $10k especially direct drive and able to support up to 55kg in gear. I have of recent been toying with selling off my Losmandy and buying a Rainbow Harmonic mount
I for one really have some issues with my Losmandy Mount - OK the mount is well built but some of the tech they use is old school, accessories and parts cost a fortune to replace, eg take the hand controller for instance you have just got to belong to their forum to see the number of issues that arise with thee and others relating to the mount and these are not in the majority user related. When you consider here you'll pay near on $8000 for a Losmandy G11-G2 mount from some supplier(s), I would expect a lot more or better from them compared to say an EQ8. Like I said I for one would support a local manufacturer who could supply a quality EQ mount under $10k especially direct drive and able to support up to 55kg in gear. I have of recent been toying with selling off my Losmandy and buying a Rainbow Harmonic mount
Interesting.
Like all products made overseas, the end user cost is very dependent on the $AUS to $USD. The G-11G is currently available for $A5900 inc GST. from some east coast dealers
I'd be interested in hearing what you mean by "old School" tech. What features are missing or need an upgrade?
Going to a sample of two, I still have my original G-11 G2 hand paddle. Never missed a beat in 7 years.
No one here knows what i have gone through in order to get to where we are, and it is only the start of the road.... no one knows where we are heading, but i know that everyone can help to push forward a little bit..
We don't need to build the best equipment or the best features or a cheaper product, i need to build something you are going to love to use and i will be proud to support.
Australia can produce its own stuff, we can produce our own telescopes, mounts and accesories, and yes, Australia can compete worldwide... there is only one way to start doing it..... in only needs a dream.
The Australian made license is my best feature, and there is a nice group of Victorians behind it.
No one here knows what i have gone through in order to get to where we are, and it is only the start of the road.... no one knows where we are heading, but i know that everyone can help to push forward a little bit..
We don't need to build the best equipment or the best features or a cheaper product, i need to build something you are going to love to use and i will be proud to support.
Australia can produce its own stuff, we can produce our own telescopes, mounts and accesories, and yes, Australia can compete worldwide... there is only one way to start doing it..... in only needs a dream.
The Australian made license is my best feature, and there is a nice group of Victorians behind it.
As the old advert slogan went "You'll never never know, unless you never never go".
As I said earlier...I wish you well...dreaming or not...it's a gutsy move and I hope the result is a good one
Diego,
I take my hat off to you for “having a go” in a small competitive industry and doing something that you love with a passion
I jointly ran a $12M company for 25years a part of which was involved in supply and installation of commercial lighting to large retailers across the country
We tried to make our own luminaries ( locally ) but after time and investment and lack of competitive muscle , we caved in to the cheap Chinese imports.
At least we had a go and that I can be very proud of ...,
I wish you every success in your endeavours Diego
Cheers
Martin
PS: Still patiently waiting for my NexDome to arrive and be delivered !!
)
I saw many others in various configurations in advanced stages of their build as well so the word is clearly getting out that First class 'scopes can and are being made right here in Oz. 
...
