Go Back   IceInSpace > General Astronomy > General Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #21  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:31 AM
LewisM's Avatar
LewisM
Novichok test rabbit

LewisM is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in the cosmos...
Posts: 10,388
Would you all stop copying MY signature line? Geez Louise...first Nick, now Alex.... there'll be a McCarthy-esque witch hunt at this rate!

No brainer that the best Maksutovs are made by Russians - even the TECs (seeing Yuri is expat Russian)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-10-2018, 10:30 AM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,979
Wavy mentioned the focusing mechanism of the Intes.

Well blow me down! A cassegrain with a moving primary mirror for achieving focus, AND NO MIRROR SHIFT!

I couldn't believe it! Not a smidge of a shift. Nada, nothing, zip, zilch.

Takahashi Mewlon, Celestron, Meade, Skywatcher, take note: The Russians have done what you haven't, EVER, and they've been doing it for YEARS!

Oh, and with no mirror shift, collimation doesn't change with moving the focusing knob.

However, you do pay for all of this, no mirror shift and quality of optics.

Dave, the Skywatcher Maks I've seen have all been from very good to outstanding. And they've been improving over the years as the manufacturing techniques of the company that's making these Maksutov optics for Synta have been refined. How much better the Intes over the Skywatcher? If I hadn't known about the Intes, I would have happily settled for the Skywatcher 180 Mak. The quality of the SCTs, that's just too variable for me to buy new with no way of star testing first. Two of the SCT's we tested were bloody good, remarkable actually. And I'm quite fond of one of them too as it comes with a really nice fork mount that I love to use with my sketching... <sigh>

https://media.giphy.com/media/43tP7nc6VFQWs/giphy.gif

Last edited by mental4astro; 03-10-2018 at 10:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:01 AM
raymo
Registered User

raymo is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: margaret river, western australia
Posts: 6,070
The Santel, the SW180, and the Intes 715 that you mentioned in your last post Wavy. I ask because if the price difference is huge, which I think it might
be, can the extra cost of the most expensive ones be justified other than if
one is either wealthy, or a perfectionist. Incidentally, I had an SW150 some
years ago that had barely perceptible image shift, and did the most
beautiful split of Antares.
raymo
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:46 AM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,979
Ah, the Intes is not new...

The difference comes down to mass production instruments and the lottery it is to getting what you expect (when you KNOW what to expect), and not having a clue and being happy with what you get. And then the small batch instruments that you purchase only when you know what you are getting, or if it is a status symbol. If you go down the small batch route, you may prefer to buy second hand, and it has nothing to do with wealth.

My own journey in this comes from having had a gutful of poor SCTs, and not getting the detail from the Moon that should be and is "promised" by the SCT producers. Having come to find out that optical quality varies so much, I decided to find a decent scope, now that I know what to expect. Now, if the SCT I purchased was one of the two units that showed themselves to be outstanding instead of the units I did end up with, then I would never have gone on this journey...

If I didn't have my initial prejudice towards Maks, and purchased a 180Mak instead of an SCT years ago, then most likely I would never have gone down this rabbit hole either!

There are also some small batch SCTs made in Japan and Italy, and these are the Ducks Nuts, showing just how good an SCT can be, but they are not in the same price band as mass production instruments.

Like I said in my previous post, the company that is making the Maksutov optics for Synta is getting their stuff really, REALLY good. Heck, I would have loved to have had Wavy's last 180 Skywatcher, but it belongs to Ivan now... Lucky sod.

There is one problem: There are no big aperture Maks coming out of Russia any more. The largest Maks now being made is the 180 from Skywatcher - mighty fine instrument too. This lack of big new Maks will not make the second hand price too kind.

Please remember, there are some fine mass production SCTs out there. If you are happy with yours, then keep it! It will keep performing well for you for a long time to come.

Last edited by mental4astro; 03-10-2018 at 12:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-10-2018, 12:06 PM
LewisM's Avatar
LewisM
Novichok test rabbit

LewisM is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in the cosmos...
Posts: 10,388
Alex, I agree with you 100%. Every Intes I have used has been essentially perfect.

I used Matt's former TEC Mak - it was absolutely perfect, and ZERO shift as far as I could tell. It had a Mitutoyo micrometer focuser!!!!!

I have used Mewlons, and honestly disliked them all. Sorry, my opinion. I just don't gel with them, even being a Takahashi nut.

I have used a Tak CN212, and am restoring one for Le Froggy right now, and they are SUPERB - plus you can convert from Cassegrain to Newtonian, making them rather unique. The optics on those are every bit as good as the Intes.

Все русское вызывает увлекательность и исключительность
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-10-2018, 01:02 PM
Wavytone
Registered User

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 4,147
Hi Raymo, So... these premium maks 7" and up are quite rare beasties. My Santel is certainly the only one in Australia, and I'd guess likewise Kunama's 8" TEC. After much hunting Alex located an Intes 715D and we know there is also an Intes 815 somewhere in Australia, last known in Victoria.

But if you want one, the real issue is what's currently available new vs secondhand, and you will have a very long wait now for a secondhand one. As Alex said, with Intes closing production the only maks in current production larger than 6" are:

- Skywatcher 180mm
- Orion UK, and
- Questar 7.

If you want to take a look at what comparable maks cost when new, take a look at:

1. APM - back in 2016, the Intes 715D was 3,990 euros, 814D was 5,500 euros, while a 10" would set you back 10,000 - 12,000 euros depending on exact specs. Largest they had was a 40cm (16").

2. Company Seven website (Questar). A Q7 astro version with the fork mount, pier/tripod and a set of Brandons comes in at $US23,000.

3. Orion Optics UK - 20cm f/20 OMC200 is 6,416 UK pounds.

Compared to these the Skywatcher 180mm mak is an absolute bargain and several recent examples I've seen have all been very good, with the last one I owned being very near perfect.

Others: There were also a few large ones made by TEC and AP, but these are out of production and good luck trying to find one.

As for the Santel... I never dreamt I'd own one of these. I knew of three owners online ... until one day Randy Payne decided to sell his, which had been in an observatory and in mint condition. You can still find the list price at http://www.stellaroptical.com/santel-mk9.htm. What I paid stays between me and Randy. Santel made only 28 MK91 and I expect the production quantities for Intes, TEC and AP are likewise small - few will pay the new prices (new).

Lastly, there is also Ottiche Zen in Venice who made some maks 8" - 10" over the years, but now only make optic sets - not finished OTA's - and their correctors are not AR coated.

Are they worth it ? That's up to you, and what you use it for. I've seen people spend as much and more on triplet 130mm refractors, which are no match. As for SCT's... what is evident from side-by-side tests is that the optical quality of Alex's 715D and the Santel are far better than comparable SCTs. I have yet to see an SCT - of any size - give better resolution than the Santel.

Last edited by Wavytone; 03-10-2018 at 02:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-10-2018, 01:18 PM
raymo
Registered User

raymo is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: margaret river, western australia
Posts: 6,070
Thanks for the comprehensive reply Wavy.
raymo
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-12-2019, 05:18 PM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,979
Thought I'd update the current state of large aperture Maksutov scopes.

Russian scopes are not being fabricated for commercial/amateur purchase. These are only available second hand.

The Intes 815 that Wavy mentioned earlier is now in New Zealand.

There is one manufacturer left that produces large aperture Maksutov optics, Ottiche Zen, but this is the optics only, not the completed OTA, from 145mm through to 300mm aperture. Ottiche produces some really outstanding quality optics too. Ottiche's Maks are all Gregorian Maks, that is the design that has the silvered spot on the corrector plate like the Skywatcher Maks have. Ottiche also manufactures Schmidt Cassegrain optics.

Astro Physics is making some large aperture Maks, but these are only to fulfill orders made years ago! No new orders are being accepted, so the only way to get you hands on one of these is to buy one from someone who's got sick of waiting for their's.

~x.X.x~

If you have a 7" Mak or larger in diameter, please still let me know. There are a few of the Meade Maks out there, but damn they are hard to track down now. To date, I have not seen one, nor heard of someone who has one or knows of one. These are harder to track down than an Intes or Questar 7!

Alex.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (CPC mod (1).jpg)
111.6 KB37 views

Last edited by mental4astro; 12-12-2019 at 07:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:03 PM
Wavytone
Registered User

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 4,147
Alex,

At present the only viable sources for 7" and up are secondhand ones from AM or CN and a couple of other websites (as you know), ie Intes, Meade or the rarer Santels.

There are several reasons. Those who have a quality mak in good condition and appreciate what they have are keeping them, pure and simple. If a large one comes up for sale (which is rare) it sells, and quickly. There are a few oddballs, as you know, either in very poor condition needing a rebuild, some of dubious quality (Orion UK), or one-offs made by amateurs.

But new ones... The largest commericial optical glass blanks suitable for Maksutov correctors are those from Schott - and they are a backorder - the size being 200 x 200 x 180 - sufficient to cut correctors for Synta (Skywatcher/Celestron) for the 180mm Maksutovs and 190mm Mak-newts. And these take a staggering 65 weeks from start to finish of annealing - before being sliced, ground and polished.

For the maks larger than 180mm... thats a different game due to the sheer cost of the blank and the time to make it - they are special orders and the price goes up astronomically.

Intes and APM ceased production (mine was the last one).

AP is only making one model - a 10" - and that requires larger blanks to be made as a special order - and their production rate is like 2 per year and the wait list is 20+ years. By all means get in the queue, but many will not be around to receive their scope.

Making these correctors is a mammoth effort - ⅔ of the glass is ground away by the time a corrector is made, and the big Maksutov soup bowls are very, very rare works of fine craftsmanship by the time they are finished. In this respect if an optician has a big glass blank, there is a strong obligation to make it the very best they possibly can. To do otherwise would be disrespectful of the effort expended to make an already very rare blank of the sufficient quality. This is why, when a set of blanks for a 24" surfaced recently in the US, a lot of people went out of their way to save those massive pieces of glass from the tip, despite the probable cost of finishing the optics being north of $75kUS.

There is an interesting account from a fellow on CN making one and he's been at it for 3 years - and the corrector isn't finished.

Yes I can hear the big dob people screaming in the background that they built a 40" for less, but that isn't the point.

Last edited by Wavytone; 11-12-2019 at 08:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:05 PM
Outcast's Avatar
Outcast (Carlton)
Always gonna be a NOOB...

Outcast is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cairns, Qld
Posts: 1,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by mental4astro View Post
Thought I'd update the current state of large aperture Maksutov scopes.

If you have a 7" Mak or larger in diameter, please still let me know. There are a few of the Meade Maks out there, but damn they are hard to track down now.

Alex.
I know where a certain SANTEL & Intes Micro 715D are... but, you already know that...

I also know where there is a very, very good Meade 8" SCT LX90 that's for sale but, apparently no-one is interested at present... (no, not you Alex...)
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:34 PM
Wavytone
Registered User

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 4,147
Carlton, I think these scopes were under-appreciated for a long time.

What sparked my interest originally were the lunar images at the Astronominsk website which shows these were in a whole different league to SCTs and subsequently getting in touch with Randy Payne - the original owner of the Santel Alex now has - and realising this was something special, optically. When Randy decided to sell I was aware it was a unique opportunity, as the scope had been in an observatory in a desert in Utah and in near mint condition after 15 years. There were just 28 MK91 made, and I located 4 of them. One of those has been sold in the UK in the past 5 years.

Another MK91 was apparently dropped and the remains (corrector and primary) sold on CN as a fixer-upper, as Alex knows; the buyer (who has a machine shop) is having a new secondary made by Lockwood and attempting to rebuild a new OTA from the Santel drawings. A real labour of love and I hope he ends up with a nice scope out of it.

As for the rest... vanished.

Your M715D is a baby brother, treasure what you have, that is a very fine scope.

Over the past few years I’ve located three other big intes maks - one 8” in the UK, one in US, and a 10” intes (!) in the US.

APM sold the last 11” in mid 2019; a 16” APM/Intes is owned by a CN member plus the 16” Markus Ludes has.

And APM has a 20” for sale, in case you have won Lotto; that is probably the third largest mak ever built.

Last edited by Wavytone; 11-12-2019 at 09:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-12-2019, 11:24 PM
Outcast's Avatar
Outcast (Carlton)
Always gonna be a NOOB...

Outcast is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cairns, Qld
Posts: 1,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavytone View Post
Carlton, I think these scopes were under-appreciated for a long time.

What sparked my interest originally were the lunar images at the Astronominsk website which shows these were in a whole different league to SCTs and subsequently getting in touch with Randy Payne - the original owner of the Santel Alex now has - and realising this was something special, optically. When Randy decided to sell I was aware it was a unique opportunity, as the scope had been in an observatory in a desert in Utah and in near mint condition after 15 years. There were just 28 MK91 made, and I located 4 of them. One of those has been sold in the UK in the past 5 years.

Another MK91 was apparently dropped and the remains (corrector and primary) sold on CN as a fixer-upper, as Alex knows; the buyer (who has a machine shop) is having a new secondary made by Lockwood and attempting to rebuild a new OTA from the Santel drawings. A real labour of love and I hope he ends up with a nice scope out of it.

As for the rest... vanished.

Your M715D is a baby brother, treasure what you have, that is a very fine scope.

Over the past few years I’ve located three other big intes maks - one 8” in the UK, one in US, and a 10” intes (!) in the US.

APM sold the last 11” in mid 2019; a 16” APM/Intes is owned by a CN member plus the 16” Markus Ludes has.

And APM has a 20” for sale, in case you have won Lotto; that is probably the third largest mak ever built.
Thanks Nick, I certainly will treasure it.. I know that I was extremely fortunate to acquire it through a sequence of events that none of us anticipated...

Unfortunately, since it arrived in the week prior to my fusion surgery I only had one very, very patchy opportunity to catch a glimpse of a few objects. Subsequently, my surgery has put my three favourite hobbies completely off the list of things I'm allowed to do for a few months so, I have not as yet had the opportunity to appreciate just how good it is.... I am looking forward immensely to Feb/Mar next year when my surgeon my let me actually do something other than sit & recuperate & I can finally start to use the Intes for the main purpose I acquired it for, planetary & lunar observing... I'm salivating at the prospect actually......

Cheers

Carlton
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:07 PM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,979
Oh, and there is one other under-the-radar Mak Cass out there - the Saxon 8" Mak!

There are not many of these out there, but these have been a real sleeper that was unfortunately a victim of essentially being ahead of its time when very few people understood what a Maksutov was and SCT's were all that was known and trusted. A real shame as these really were a very good instrument that can be user collimated, unlike the Meade 7".

Sadly too, these are no longer in production - haven't been for a number of years too. A damn fine scope.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (Saxon Mak ii.jpg)
7.7 KB30 views
Click for full-size image (Saxon Mak i.jpg)
24.8 KB32 views
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:21 PM
raymo
Registered User

raymo is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: margaret river, western australia
Posts: 6,070
Being as they were badged Saxon, who actually made them, Synta?
raymo
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:45 PM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,979
No, not Synta. The scopes were made in China, yes, but not by Synta. The firm that made these scopes no longer makes them, probably because at the time there was no demand for these scopes back then. A real shame as today this would be a different story. Especially as manufacturing techniques and quality has been improving over the years with this side of optical manufacturing.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-12-2019, 08:06 PM
Wavytone
Registered User

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 4,147
The Saxon 203mm mak is curious. I first saw one in the window of Astro Optics back in the days when the shop was in Clarke St Crows Nest, mid to late '80s maybe; and at the time I was fairly sceptical regarding products from a totally unknown brand.

Optical production in China is complex.

In Yunnan province around Kunming there are numerous optical factories which originated in the 1950's from the Chinese military production needs, with commercial products being a sideline. These make batches of equipment to engineering specifications, minimum quantities typically start at 1,000 units. Their main output is boring stuff like the lenses for mobile phones (in tens of thousands of units), cheap camera lenses, the junk in K-Mart, loupes, school microscopes, magnifying glasses to binoculars, and occasionally it extends to eyepieces and small telescopes.

Then there are the "re-badging" companies - Saxon is one, Bosma another. Even Vixen and Celestron. In essence they buy the products in bulk (thousands) from whichever factory was contracted, finish the complete assemblies (eg fit finders, clamps, focusers and throw in an eyepiece or two) slap their label on it and put it in a box with their name on the outside. They then on-sell these wholesale into "channels" that eventually reach the international agents, retailers and eventually sold to the public.

IMHO some company contracted a quantity of these scopes to be manufactured and traded these to the branding outfits - Saxon is one, and later Bosma was another that probably picked up the end of the production run.

Several years ago the Bosma Chinese website briefly featured a 203mm mak "system" with an OTA identical to the Saxon one right down to the unusual ribbed clamp around the OTA - it was both cosmetically and optically identical - except it was all white, complete with finder, a mount (looked like a GP knockoff), eyepieces, various adapters and so-on. It subsequently vanished from their website.

Unlke the Japanese factories, the Chinese didn't adopt the practice of applying a discrete "makers mark" to identify the real origin. Even their telescopes don't have serial numbers. So basically there really is no way of knowing which factory a product really came from, nor the date of manufacture. I'm certain some things were sitting in storage for decades till they were eventually sold.

Last edited by Wavytone; 12-12-2019 at 08:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-12-2019, 08:49 PM
raymo
Registered User

raymo is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: margaret river, western australia
Posts: 6,070
Thanks for the info chaps. [I'm a pom].
raymo
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 16-02-2020, 10:09 PM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,979
I'm not giving up yet on finding some of these Maks! Not necessarily to buy it, just if only to know what is out there and hopefully get a look through it!

So, if you have a 7" or larger Mak from Meade or Questar, Intes, Santel, TEC, Orion UK, or whomever, or know of someone with one of these scopes, I would love to know Or you may even have just heard something on the grapevine, and even this would be a good lead.

The 8" Intes that was known to be in Victoria I've come to find out is now in New Zealand. I know of just one 8" Saxon Mak in Western Australia that's in regular use. I've also come to know of one Questar 7 towards Richmond in Sydney's northwest, in unknown condition as its been in storage for more than 15 years.

Alex.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 25-02-2020, 07:23 PM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,979
I can now add a second Saxon 8" Mak, in South Australia

Any other 8" and larger Maks out there?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 30-09-2020, 01:44 PM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,979
Hi all,

Thought I'd post a pic of the "Kremlin of Maks" that happened at my place a couple of weeks ago.

6 Maks, all using Russian made Intes glass.

Left to right:
* Two 6" Maks side by side, an MK67D & M615, on a Losmandy AZ8
* APM 10" with MK66D side by side on an AZ-EQ6
* A 9" Santel MK91 on a modified single arm CPC mount
* An Alter MK1008D, a 10" on an NEQ6 Pro.

We happened to chance upon a night of very good seeing too, so we were able to get each scope squealing with tight collimation. We managed to get the best view of Mars any of us had ever had. Comparing the scopes, there was really bugger all between them to separate them, that is comparing the 6" between them and then the larger Maks to each other. Five of the six scopes were of 1/8 wave or better rated (the "Deluxe" quality issued by Intes), with one 6" being of the standard 1/6 wave for Intes glass.

A night with exceptional glass, going over each with a fine tooth comb, and coming away very impressed with the whole lot.

Alex.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (IMG_0785.jpg)
172.6 KB53 views
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 01:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
Testar
Advertisement