Go Back   IceInSpace > Equipment > Equipment Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 03-03-2021, 01:55 PM
TrevorW
Registered User

TrevorW is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 7,852
Mount Purchase

Is it worth buying a high end mount from an Australian supplier when you consider the price is almost double what you would pay direct - opinion as I'm wishing to purchase new mount around $10k mark and leaning towards a Rainbow 300 or Hobym Crux 200HDA or are there any better options for my price range
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-03-2021, 03:37 PM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
Is it worth buying a high end mount from an Australian supplier when you consider the price is almost double what you would pay direct - opinion as I'm wishing to purchase new mount around $10k mark and leaning towards a Rainbow 300 or Hobym Crux 200HDA or are there any better options for my price range
Cutting edge mounts. Are there many reviews out there about their performance?

What scope(s) are you planning to mount on it?

Greg.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-03-2021, 06:15 PM
TrevorW
Registered User

TrevorW is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 7,852
With counterweights these can accommodate up to 40-50kg in payload , I've read a couple of reviews saying they can do 10 minute unguided subs, naturally I research more before committing, it all a matter of how much etc to get one delivered here after tax, duty, shipping etc but they are only lightweight mount so shipping shouldn't be over the top, currently they are retailing for around $8000 US without tripod although I don't need that, - cheers
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-03-2021, 10:40 AM
RugbyRene (Rene)
Registered User

RugbyRene is offline
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 343
For the amount you are looking to spend I'd get a good GEM rather than the harmonic drive mounts.

You can pick up an AstroPhysics mount (which is what I'm looking at upgrading to from my pain in the ar*e SW AZEQ6-GT).

I believe Advanced Telescope Supplies is the Aussie retailer. I know Peter lurks on the forum so maybe he can help.

Rene
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-03-2021, 11:46 AM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by RugbyRene View Post
For the amount you are looking to spend I'd get a good GEM rather than the harmonic drive mounts.

You can pick up an AstroPhysics mount (which is what I'm looking at upgrading to from my pain in the ar*e SW AZEQ6-GT).

I believe Advanced Telescope Supplies is the Aussie retailer. I know Peter lurks on the forum so maybe he can help.

Rene
For example the AP MACH 1 GTO that was just sold on this site for around $6800.

The problem with this hobby, generally speaking now, is that because its a small market the buyers of new and intried gear tend to be the beta testers.

So whilst something sounds terrific in an ad, real world performance and reliability, compatibility with other software is the thing you want.

An AP mount is a reliable piece of gear. Does its job well and costs a lot more than the cheaper mounts but that's because its high quality.

That would be what would hold me back from trying new technology. I would want to see many users out there that are happy with it not a marketing piece. I'd need to see high quality images with routinely nice round stars.

Greg.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-03-2021, 12:40 PM
codemonkey's Avatar
codemonkey (Lee)
Lee "Wormsy" Borsboom

codemonkey is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kilcoy, QLD
Posts: 2,058
Quote:
I've read a couple of reviews saying they can do 10 minute unguided subs
I'd be very skeptical about that claim. My understanding is that while the harmonic drives are great for lack of backlash, they're notorious for large periodic error. In addition to that, going unguided at any reasonable imaging scale is about more than just having an accurate mount, you really need good modelling software as well. If you buy one of those expecting 10min unguided subs at a reasonable image scale I almost guarantee you'll be disappointed.

Huge disclaimer: I'm currently selling one of the mounts I'm about to talk about but I'm also trying not to freight it, so this not a matter of me trying to sell my mount to you, it's my genuine experience/opinion.

I've used the following mounts of the years: CG5, EQ6(x2), EQ8, Avalon Linear, Astro-Physics Mach 1 GTO and a Mesu. Absolutely no question about it, the Mesu was the best of the lot for my purposes.

EQ8, EQ6 etc just weren't accurate enough for my liking... I was imaging at 0.5"/px at the end, and typical guide errors on mounts in that class are more like (total RMS) 0.6" on the best of nights to 1"

Avalon Linear did 0.5" total RMS on the best of nights as I recall, I think 0.6" was more typical, but it did have huge periodic error (e.g. 30") meaning you have to guide fast to overcome it.

Astro-Physics Mach 1 was a beautiful mount, I routinely got 0.5" total RMS, occasionally down to 0.4", however they also have some Dec backlash (I recall 200-300ms being standard) due to the gears in the drive system which actually did bother me... obviously way better than EQ6 class mounts all the same, but I did find that frustrating and I did not expect it when spending that kind of money. Honestly not sure how much it impacted my images, maybe not at all, and I seriously doubt people with more typical imaging scales would notice an issue, but my image scale was tight and I'm a perfectionist. The Mach 2 with absolute encoders would likely be a perfect portable imaging mount if the capacity is sufficient, which it would be for most people.

Mesu 200 has been a dream. It's huge and heavy so not good for portable people, but in an observatory it'a fantastic. Software isn't the most user-friendly, but it's very powerful once you get the hang of it. Absolutely zero backlash due to the friction drive, which I love. I'd sometimes see total RMS down in the area of 0.2" on this mount. I did find it quite sensitive to balance and simultaneously hard to balance which isn't a good combo, and the lack of through-the-mount cabling in the version I have means you have to be careful with your cable management, but in an observatory you get that stuff dialled in and leave it alone. The Mesu 200 is without a doubt the best mount I've used. The biggest thing I missed there was the lack of through-the-mount cabling, which lots of other mounts don't have anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-03-2021, 12:43 PM
Peter Ward's Avatar
Peter Ward
Galaxy hitchhiking guide

Peter Ward is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Shire
Posts: 8,090
Given IIS's TOS, I am reluctant to comment on commercial matters....however....let's see how it goes.

Unfortunately your timing is a little late. Orders for AP's 2021 1100GTO run have closed and the allocation for Australia/ATS has already been filled.

FYI Australia is allocated only 2-3 mounts out of each run, and they are usually spoken for long before production is complete.
The up-side of ordering locally is you can often get a mount before you would have with AP's rather infamous "notification list".

Same goes for the Mach2 run (shipping now).
I have personally ordered a Mach2 which I expect will perform superbly, and will likely give test report on when it shows up sometime in May.

A word on pricing. Paying "double" by ordering through a local dealer, rather than say from the manufacturer, is simply false when it comes to AP.

ATS charges exactly the same as AP's web pricing, (converted to $A)
plus shipping to Oz, customs entry and GST....in fact sometimes cheaper as we can consolidate shipping costs.

Lastly, the reason AP mounts and optics are so in demand is their manufacturing quality and performance is exceptional.
Small production runs and stringent QC limits the amount of product they churn out, hence due high demand, wait times can be long.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-03-2021, 12:43 PM
RugbyRene (Rene)
Registered User

RugbyRene is offline
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 343
There's also 10 Micron which are excellent mounts but really pricey.

Or you could spring for a Planewave mount but that's a whole different league.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-03-2021, 05:20 PM
TrevorW
Registered User

TrevorW is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 7,852
I was toying with AP but thought may be out of my price bracket Only other option may be a Paramount MYT GEM


Last edited by TrevorW; 04-03-2021 at 09:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 15-03-2021, 11:22 AM
Paul Haese's Avatar
Paul Haese
Registered User

Paul Haese is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 9,937
Trevor,

it is good to consider a SB mount too. I have two of their mounts. A PME and a PMX. The PME is second hand and the PMX was new. Both mounts have had the odd issue but generally they are bullet proof and provide excellent performance year after year. Servicing is a breeze with them and if you need to do any real work on them, it can all be done easily with instructions from SB.

The mounts perform to a very high standard. Pointing can be exceptional if you work hard on the PA and pointing model. Guiding is also great with 4-10 second guiding possible at 0.84-0.94" per pixel imaging with work to the PE and using Protrack. I have also used them at tighter resolutions but that was with the use of a AOX for guiding. I typically do over 600 hours a year per mount. I keep up the service regime and this ensures the mounts will last a very long time.

I am sure the MYT is just a good as any other SB mount and it is very portable.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 15-03-2021, 12:04 PM
Merlin66's Avatar
Merlin66 (Ken)
Registered User

Merlin66 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Junortoun Vic
Posts: 8,904
Trident mount

If you want to live dangerously look at the JTW Trident mount!!!
https://www.ideaengineering.us/?ec_s...lnumberjtwogem
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 15-03-2021, 12:45 PM
AnakChan (Sean)
Registered User

AnakChan is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Perth
Posts: 371
I have a harmonic driven mount by a boutique Japanese maker. They do have the benefit of taking a heavy payload without counterweights with no backlash.

Here's mine in action, as you can see the motor is very silent :-

https://youtu.be/u7bpXuwFqKI

Harmonic Drives to have high PE however, and guiding is a must. RainbowAstro is coming up with a new RST135E (with encoders) and will need to see how it performs after it's released. I gather if that is successful we'll start to see encoders for their upper range too.

HobyM Crux seems more popular in the Asia/Japan region but hasn't made much traction in the western markets. Their Crux Traveler 140 was unfortunately plagued with poor QC that approx 30% had a bad batch of strainwave geared motors. Cuiv, The Lazy Geek (Youtube) was an early adopter of the Crux Traveler and encountered the issue however it seems HobyM didn't take the issue seriously till many months later.

If you're going to stick to the harmonic drive approach, I'd personally look more towards RainbowAstro which seems to have greater traction - therefore leading to larger R&D budget for RainbowAstro to invest in, as such seeing the likes of incorporating the Renishaw encoder (RA only) into their RST135E.

All in all though, harmonic driven mounts for astrophotography is still very much in their infancy. Adoption rates are slow although increasing (primarily with the RST135). Maker offerings are also increasing, although I feel they're merely testing the waters. Aside from RainbowAstro and HobyM, you also have SS-One (mine), K-Astec, even GOTO Japan with their MX-HD.

I wouldn't (and don't) rely solely on one harmonic driven mount. I have a traditional GE mount, and the SS-One Traveler to play with.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 17-03-2021, 12:34 PM
toc's Avatar
toc (Tim)
Registered User

toc is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
Posts: 826
Well I can only offer my own experience - I would caution against getting a mount direct from overseas, especially one where the company is a 'one man band', or a very small group. While they often do have amazing performance when working perfectly, you can face problems if the mount is not working 100%. This can be a very frustrating and potentially very costly experience, especially if you have to ship the thing back to Europe or the US.

Personally I wouldnt consider getting a mount unless it was backed by a local distributor that can help with dealing with the vendor, and also offer some support for repairs etc...

Just my 2cents worth...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 17-03-2021, 04:05 PM
gregbradley's Avatar
gregbradley
Registered User

gregbradley is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17,877
It seems a bit of a conflicted mount. Good drive but bad PE.

I judge mounts almost exclusively on their PE. The trend is also for unguided with almost zero PE such as AP Mach 2 GTO using encoders.

I guess if the PE is very smooth then it may guide out easily but I would not want to rely only on guiding as that can be quite hit or miss and is a bit of an art by itself.

I am not sure what the advantage is of these drives if they have high PE. Backlash is more of a low end mount issue.

These mounts are competing with some pretty high performing mounts in that price bracket.

Greg.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
I have a harmonic driven mount by a boutique Japanese maker. They do have the benefit of taking a heavy payload without counterweights with no backlash.

Here's mine in action, as you can see the motor is very silent :-

https://youtu.be/u7bpXuwFqKI

Harmonic Drives to have high PE however, and guiding is a must. RainbowAstro is coming up with a new RST135E (with encoders) and will need to see how it performs after it's released. I gather if that is successful we'll start to see encoders for their upper range too.

HobyM Crux seems more popular in the Asia/Japan region but hasn't made much traction in the western markets. Their Crux Traveler 140 was unfortunately plagued with poor QC that approx 30% had a bad batch of strainwave geared motors. Cuiv, The Lazy Geek (Youtube) was an early adopter of the Crux Traveler and encountered the issue however it seems HobyM didn't take the issue seriously till many months later.

If you're going to stick to the harmonic drive approach, I'd personally look more towards RainbowAstro which seems to have greater traction - therefore leading to larger R&D budget for RainbowAstro to invest in, as such seeing the likes of incorporating the Renishaw encoder (RA only) into their RST135E.

All in all though, harmonic driven mounts for astrophotography is still very much in their infancy. Adoption rates are slow although increasing (primarily with the RST135). Maker offerings are also increasing, although I feel they're merely testing the waters. Aside from RainbowAstro and HobyM, you also have SS-One (mine), K-Astec, even GOTO Japan with their MX-HD.

I wouldn't (and don't) rely solely on one harmonic driven mount. I have a traditional GE mount, and the SS-One Traveler to play with.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 18-03-2021, 07:09 PM
jamespierce (James)
Registered User

jamespierce is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 321
$10k is honestly a tricky price point...



I have a PMX+ and get very good results both imaging and collecting photometry data ... if I had my time again I would seriously consider an Astro Physics or Planewave L mount... BUT... they are all in the ~$15k or even a bit more range.


Depends if you need remote homing/recovery etc options. Or if you can look at a good Losmandy or Skywatcher etc.


It's hard to imagine starting again without axis encoders at this point. I don't have them now, but I wouldn't buy another serious mount without them in the future.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 18-03-2021, 08:36 PM
TrevorW
Registered User

TrevorW is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 7,852
I already have a Losmandy G11 looking for something a little more precise and accurate
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 18-03-2021, 08:54 PM
AnakChan (Sean)
Registered User

AnakChan is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Perth
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
It seems a bit of a conflicted mount. Good drive but bad PE.

I judge mounts almost exclusively on their PE. The trend is also for unguided with almost zero PE such as AP Mach 2 GTO using encoders.

I guess if the PE is very smooth then it may guide out easily but I would not want to rely only on guiding as that can be quite hit or miss and is a bit of an art by itself.

I am not sure what the advantage is of these drives if they have high PE. Backlash is more of a low end mount issue.

These mounts are competing with some pretty high performing mounts in that price bracket.

Greg.
And I think think that's why harmonic drive mounts are still in their infancy. The real advantage of such drives really just for their weight to payload ratio; therefore for transportability/travel. For now, the PEs are somewhat addressed by guiding, although the newer RainbowAstro RST135E with encoders are looking to be interesting.

A question would be, would the prices go down if there's greater adoption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
I already have a Losmandy G11 looking for something a little more precise and accurate
Whilst researching into @codemonkey's Mesu 200, I came across the Gemini Telescope Design GTD E.Fric friction drive. Unlike the Mesu (or other friction drive-based mounts), it doesn't use encoders so it's priced somewhat more reasonably. There has been some other adopters in the other forums however insufficient to draw definitive conclusions.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 22-03-2021, 12:42 PM
Rocket (Ed)
Registered User

Rocket is online now
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 21
Rene, re your comment, what is the problem with the AZ-EQ6? Is it a general design problem, or specific to your unit and/or application? Cheers, Ed
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 22-03-2021, 03:58 PM
RugbyRene (Rene)
Registered User

RugbyRene is offline
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
Rene, re your comment, what is the problem with the AZ-EQ6? Is it a general design problem, or specific to your unit and/or application? Cheers, Ed
I don't like the altitude adjustment on it. It's too jumpy when under the strain of carrying a full rig, so when you're doing PA and have to do fine adjustments you can easily apply too much pressure and jump way past what you intended.

Also, at least, mine, has horrible PE. I know this can be evened out with PemPro and the like but I'm paying thousands for this mount, I expect much better performance.

I have managed to tame it and am getting better guiding (0.7-0.8 RMS) but that's after a lot of fiddling around adjusting the worm gears, tightening the belts and tweaking the settings in KStars.

Personally if I was to buy another mount I'd look for something else and consider spending a little bit more money for something better.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 22-03-2021, 06:36 PM
raymo
Registered User

raymo is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: margaret river, western australia
Posts: 6,070
You wouldn't be spending a little bit more, and going up market doesn't
guarantee a trouble free experience either.
raymo
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 06:00 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
Testar
Advertisement