They don't explode. Liquids and solids are highly incompressible.
I have some bunker coal from the Titanic on my desk. Taken 3.8Km down. So far it hasn't exploded.
The literature is full of examples of 600,000 year and older ice core data from samples takes at 3-4 km down.
I will try and find the lecture where I picked that up...explode perhaps ..certainly..the wrong word..but I thought the lecturer said because of the pressure it expanded rapidly and they could not read it ... I will look for it.
Thanks Peter.
Alex
Here is the lecture ..Yale.. https://youtu.be/qtA_3Z1N0ho
And you will see the lecturer says the ice gets brittle and actually uses the words that it explodes...useful cores limited to 8000 bc and depth 600 to 1300 mtrs.
Alex
Edit... I forgot to direct viewers to the spot in the video where I picked up the notion of the ice exploding and the limitations that brittle ice puts on the research...go to minute 49 and you will hear the lecturer say what he said and know where I got the notion...a matter of less than a minute.
Now I watching another lecture and he certainly mentions 400,000 year icecore????
Alex
Very early in the Yale talk you linked to, he mentions millennial ice cores down to 3.4k. or so....i.e. dating from hundreds of thousands of years ago.
There is a good deal of literature on this elsewhere....I'm not inclined to sift through an hour long Youtube history presentation to find ( or not) a "sound byte" that really proves nothing.
Critical thought and reading peer reviewed material works better for me.
Very early in the Yale talk you linked to, he mentions millennial ice cores down to 3.4k. or so....i.e. dating from hundreds of thousands of years ago.
There is a good deal of literature on this elsewhere....I'm not inclined to sift through an hour long Youtube history presentation to find ( or not) a "sound byte" that really proves nothing.
Critical thought and reading peer reviewed material works better for me.
Yes I am trying to get up to speed in this area. The video that I linked to was the first material that I had looked at on the subject but given it was out of Yale I felt it should have been reliable to a larger degree than claims offered up in Hancock type material.
And sorry I thought I noted where in the video to look so you would know where I got the idea re "exploding ice"...And I only offer this up to show that I did not pull the idea out of thin air and certainly not to prove any other point. If you go to 49 th minute you will hear him say what I said that I heard...it will be over in a minute.
And I do not take the opposite position to you when it comes to critical thinking or reading peer reviewed paper or whilst on the matter the scientific method. That lecture was the first I saw and after viewing it I began to think the claims re the sea level rise being evidenced in the ice cores was suspect given the limitations the lecturer in the posted video mentioned. I did say earlier that I was looking to find what was actually shown in the ice cores and after seeing that video backed off looking..other things to do..And I never got back to looking at more information.
In any event I still have not found any information where the ice cores for the period in question have been discussed by folk who are not pushing a particular barrow..ie an impartial scientific statement as to what the ice cores tell us about the sea levels around the period when the impact is alleged to have occurred.
Thank for your input re the ice cores as it now appears that evidence may indeed be available. Without getting carried away I have yet to establish the sea level rise if any...after all that claim is one that requires evidence ..the cores should be able to tell us what happened around that time I hope.
Hi Andy
All interesting stuff..thanks for outlining it all.
But for so many folk they hear this stuff and burr up and reject it without investigating it at all...and for no other reason than they have formed their beliefs and as I said unfortunately when folk form a belief they consider them to be facts...usually facts and beliefs are two very different things.
...
But when you look at this stuff you certainly get the impression many valid aspects are probable, certainly it seems funny that the pyramids are presented as tombs when there is no evidence, it seems odd that folk reject the evidence of a comet impact or seek an implausible eplaination for the mega fauna die out...maybe it is the influence of those who believe the world is only 6000 years old who although not believed perhaps impose considerable influence in a political sense to guide funding. Who knows I certainly don't but as I said all one can do is look at all the presented facts and avoid forming a belief and then labling your belief the facts.
I just can not understand why folk get upset with new or different information without a recognition that it is belief that they are defending...I think belief can inhibit the search for truth... but often truth is not the issue I guess.
I don't care probably everything we think we know will change somewhat over the coming centuries like it has tended to do in the past.
Alex
Okay, I doubt the Pyramids were tombs -- well some of them anyway. But Tutankhamen's tomb was the first ever to be found intact. every other had been robbed of its wealth.
Mega fauna was hunted by humans, and so died out -- not talking of mammoths, etc. We made them extinct by hunting. If you go out hunting, you do not hunt a small possum when there is a giant animal that will feed the whole village for days. The Dodo, the Moa, the elephant bird are know to have been hunted to Extinction. And we know others were hunted out also. Ditto the last remaining Dinosaur. We all have heard of St. George killing the Dinosaur, but ancients called them dragons.
I don't know why I did not do this earlier..I know folk don't like wiki but it's a great place to start.
Here is a link to the matter outlining the proposition with things in support and things against.
Okay, I doubt the Pyramids were tombs -- well some of them anyway. But Tutankhamen's tomb was the first ever to be found intact. every other had been robbed of its wealth.
Mega fauna was hunted by humans, and so died out -- not talking of mammoths, etc. We made them extinct by hunting. If you go out hunting, you do not hunt a small possum when there is a giant animal that will feed the whole village for days. The Dodo, the Moa, the elephant bird are know to have been hunted to Extinction. And we know others were hunted out also. Ditto the last remaining Dinosaur. We all have heard of St. George killing the Dinosaur, but ancients called them dragons.
Good morning John.
I guess St George was looking for something to feed the whole village.
Alex
Why say such a thing? I did not remotely suggest such a thing ..did I?
It is clear you have formed a view and are not thinking about the matters that I am raising...you are creating a straw man which is not cricket old chap.
As to getting it done in twenty years please do me a favour..get out your calculator and tell me how many blocks an hour, each hour for the twenty years...Maybe I made a mistake but just that one single observation must cause one to doubt the twenty year story...wouldn't that be better than going on with alien rubbish..
Alex,
I apologise that my post has created offence.
My reference to aliens and UFOs was not aimed at you, it was more a general frustration that when people can't imagine how THEY could personally achieve what has been done in the past, they start to resort to other explanations, or to doubt that the project could have been completed in a sensible timeline. However, if you take away the references to UFOs, aliens and voodoo (for which i apologise), I stand by the remainder of my post.
For the specifics of the Great Pyramid, yes, it is an astonishing undertaking, but it is in fact quite achievable in 20 years - or less! I really do urge you to check the project management article that I linked, because they present the maths for the man-power quite convincingly. (They even factor in days off and holidays, allowing 280 x 10-hour days per worker per year.) https://web.archive.org/web/20070608.../0699feat.html
A few key highlights, though.
There are about 2.6 million cubic metres of material, estimated to be about 2 million blocks. While some of the blocks are massive, the majority are around 1 cubic metre, and weigh about 2 1/2 tonnes each. Yes, these are substantial objects, but we KNOW that a team of about 20 labourers can haul such a bock up an earthen ramp on a sled, without needing wheels or rollers.
Note that the blocks are not uniform in size, they actually get smaller as we go up - this is presumably part of their methodology for moving these quantities of stone blocks to such heights. The vast majority of blocks are completely undressed; finishing was generally done in-situ on the visible faces only, and presumably a skilled artisan workforce was employed on this aspect.
A common misconception is to assume that the rate of installation of the 2 million blocks was something like constant over the life of the project - say 500 - 600 blocks per day over a 10-year program (or whatever number you arrive at depending on the assumed time-line) - but this is not the case!
As the structure is a pyramid, the vast bulk of the material is in the lower tiers. 7/8 of the total material is in the bottom half of the height, only 1/8 of the material, or about 250,000 blocks, comprise the whole top half! The paper estimates that there are about 250 layers of blocks in the main structure, but that 2/3 of the blocks had been placed by level 50; there are only about 7,000 blocks in the last 20 layers.
The delivery rate of the blocks can be MUCH higher at the base than at the top - because the base is vast, there is not much problem with bringing in blocks from multiple directions. The base is 230 metres to a side, so you can easily conceive of how you could initially have dozens of teams bringing in blocks from all directions.
Things get more challenging as we go up, because we get more and more restricted in the number of ramps, and the widths and lengths of those ramps - but the number of blocks per layer drops off rapidly. The paper assumes a single ramp, with a 15% gradient; the final volume of the ramp works out to be about 1/3 that of the pyramid itself, and its construction and removal is factored into the whole project undertaking. We know that a 15% ramp is feasible, because there are archaeological sites at quarries where such ramps (and steeper) have been found, as well as evidence of the technology used to haul the blocks up the ramps.
In the early stages of construction, a team of 20 could probably move a couple of blocks a day from a staging area at the base of the pyramid into position; as height is gained, the hauling distance becomes longer, and it takes one or more days for each block to reach its finished location - but we are moving far fewer blocks per day than at the start. 20 to 50 metres behind the first team is another team, and another behind that, and another behind that... At the end of each working day, all the blocks are left where they lie, the crew go off for a meal and a sleep, and the next day they all pick-up where they left off.
Yes, an astonishing undertaking, requiring fantastic project management - but entirely achievable with the technology and labour force that we know they had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave
You admit there is nothing to go on as to the tomb aspect..as it's all gone and focus upon a granite box that you guess must have been a tomb because you can't imagine what else it could be used for???? So based on your best guess we can ignore the fact that all the bodies are found in the Valley of the Kings...come on ..do you expect to sweep away my observations on your best unsupported guess.
AND if a cofin why is it in the corner...that alone suggests to me it was not a coffin and absolutely inconsistent with their strict ideas as to perfect layout.
And why nothing on the walls...looted?
And why do we find all the bodies in the Valley of the Kings..you do know where they found the king you mention..not in a pyramid is a clue.
I don't pretend to know all of the purpose and meaning of the Great Pyramid, but we can take a lot of clues from earlier smaller pyramids from multiple sites (which most assuredly WERE used as tombs), and the fact that the Great Pyramid is part of a substantial funerary and religious complex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giza_pyramid_complex
The Giza complex dates from an entirely different (MUCH older) part of Egyptian history to the Valley of the Kings - circa 2500 BC for the Giza complex (4th Dynasty), versus 11th to 16th century BC for the Valley of the Kings (18th to 20th Dynasties). Funerary customs (artefacts, wall decorations, ceremonies, etc) should not be assumed to be comparable. It is believed that pretty well everything at Giza had been looted long before the time of the Valley of the Kings.
My reference to aliens and UFOs was not aimed at you, it was more a general frustration that when people can't imagine how THEY could personally achieve what has been done in the past, they start to resort to other explanations, or to doubt that the project could have been completed in a sensible timeline. However, if you take away the references to UFOs, aliens and voodoo (for which i apologise), I stand by the remainder of my post.
For the specifics of the Great Pyramid, yes, it is an astonishing undertaking, but it is in fact quite achievable in 20 years - or less! I really do urge you to check the project management article that I linked, because they present the maths for the man-power quite convincingly. (They even factor in days off and holidays, allowing 280 x 10-hour days per worker per year.) https://web.archive.org/web/20070608.../0699feat.html
A few key highlights, though.
There are about 2.6 million cubic metres of material, estimated to be about 2 million blocks. While some of the blocks are massive, the majority are around 1 cubic metre, and weigh about 2 1/2 tonnes each. Yes, these are substantial objects, but we KNOW that a team of about 20 labourers can haul such a bock up an earthen ramp on a sled, without needing wheels or rollers.
Note that the blocks are not uniform in size, they actually get smaller as we go up - this is presumably part of their methodology for moving these quantities of stone blocks to such heights. The vast majority of blocks are completely undressed; finishing was generally done in-situ on the visible faces only, and presumably a skilled artisan workforce was employed on this aspect.
A common misconception is to assume that the rate of installation of the 2 million blocks was something like constant over the life of the project - say 500 - 600 blocks per day over a 10-year program (or whatever number you arrive at depending on the assumed time-line) - but this is not the case!
As the structure is a pyramid, the vast bulk of the material is in the lower tiers. 7/8 of the total material is in the bottom half of the height, only 1/8 of the material, or about 250,000 blocks, comprise the whole top half! The paper estimates that there are about 250 layers of blocks in the main structure, but that 2/3 of the blocks had been placed by level 50; there are only about 7,000 blocks in the last 20 layers.
The delivery rate of the blocks can be MUCH higher at the base than at the top - because the base is vast, there is not much problem with bringing in blocks from multiple directions. The base is 230 metres to a side, so you can easily conceive of how you could initially have dozens of teams bringing in blocks from all directions.
Things get more challenging as we go up, because we get more and more restricted in the number of ramps, and the widths and lengths of those ramps - but the number of blocks per layer drops off rapidly. The paper assumes a single ramp, with a 15% gradient; the final volume of the ramp works out to be about 1/3 that of the pyramid itself, and its construction and removal is factored into the whole project undertaking. We know that a 15% ramp is feasible, because there are archaeological sites at quarries where such ramps (and steeper) have been found, as well as evidence of the technology used to haul the blocks up the ramps.
In the early stages of construction, a team of 20 could probably move a couple of blocks a day from a staging area at the base of the pyramid into position; as height is gained, the hauling distance becomes longer, and it takes one or more days for each block to reach its finished location - but we are moving far fewer blocks per day than at the start. 20 to 50 metres behind the first team is another team, and another behind that, and another behind that... At the end of each working day, all the blocks are left where they lie, the crew go off for a meal and a sleep, and the next day they all pick-up where they left off.
Yes, an astonishing undertaking, requiring fantastic project management - but entirely achievable with the technology and labour force that we know they had.
Hi Julian...there is no need to apologise, in fact, it is I that should appologise for grandstanding...in my own humble way...
Perhaps the reason I blurred up too much was because I feel exactly the same way as you do regarding the various unsupported speculations, particularly those regarding aliens did it. I would hope folk don't think I am that crazy.
I find it particularly frustrating to be watching a video on these matters which goes along quiet reasonably and then they go off the rails with the idea of aliens..for example.
For a variety of reasons that sort of thing annoys me but mostly because I feel there are questions that can be asked that require reasonable explanation and moreover the presentation of evidence that supports the proposition that the Eygiptians perhaps were not the original builders and to entertain that there is no need to make wild guesses that frankly cause reasonable folk to abandon considering the simple proposition that the Egyptians may well have inherited "ruins" which they used for their own purposes.
I think there is a reasonable case to wonder why the pyramids are presented as tombs as certainly I find nothing that is mildly supportive of such...in fact there are many observations that would seem to contradict that unevidenced proposal.
And yet as I said ask anyone in casual conversation and the answer is invariably that they were built as tombs...And that is possible no doubt but to say so without real evidence is a wild guess...it is out there but it seems an urban myth.
I certainly did look at the links you kindly provided.
And I admit they have made a good attempt at thinking about the matter. I neither accept or reject their approach or conclusions.
But the nagging fact is they attempt to show how it could be possible clearly to fit the current thinking into something folk can digest and that the tomb idea is correct..why..
But the fact there is no claim to fame for building any pyramid and not one invoice, or work sheet, or any thing at all that hints at the massive project has me open to thinking well there is nothing because they may have inheritted the "ruins".
And if they have not recorded anything at all one must wonder why...maybe the plans were secret but you could think there would be little things ..law suits, invoices, notes of something..but there is nothing.
The time given to construction is needed to fit the belief that the great pyramid was a tomb for a specific king...if not a tomb not only does the time suggested for building become open ended but the question must arise ...well why did the Eygiptians build it...And in the absence of a reason if a tomb is off the table I think we came determine that they had no reason...I hope that you can see the approach I take is perhaps the approach that should have been taken first rather than someone claiming they were tombs, building a career on such and causing all to follow seeking to support a claim that I see no reason to be made in the first place...evidence beats belief and opinion.
I think the claim they were tombs has absolutely no evidence..so far...but I have been looking..I have no axe to grindl like pretty well all who make a comment. Hancock has committed to various books and others have written papers...And so we get sides both of whom hide anything that is inconvenient to their stand...And so finding what is fact and what is real evidence becomes most difficult.
Again thank you for your input and again remember I blurred up simply because those alien proponents annoy me just as much as they do you ...And I certainly may be a bit of a nutter but really I am driven by looking at evidence and using science, the scientific method and observation to arrive at all myconclusions and having arrived I don't commit to a belief that I now know it all...
There is very little in the way of "documentary" evidence dating back to the era of the pyramids, other than the "hard" evidence (pottery, jewellery, buildings, sculptures, etc) - pretty well all of the "soft" evidence (papyrus, fabrics, official records and histories, etc) has been lost. The history trail was well and truly cold by the time of the celebrated later dynasties of Tutankhamen, Nefertiti, etc - they were mystified by the purpose and function of the pyramids, because the culture of the much earlier pyramid-builders was entirely foreign to them.
We KNOW that the earliest pyramids were used as tombs, because funerary remains have been found in some; we also know that virtually all tombs and temples of that period (including mausoleums, in-ground burials, cave burials, and the pyramids) were comprehensively looted well before the later Egyptian dynasties. The Egyptian pyramids were an evolution from earlier structures (mastabas in Egypt, ziggurats in Mesopotamia before that), and we also know that these too were used as temples and tombs.
It is incorrect to state that there are no hieroglyphics in the Great Pyramid - they HAVE been found in the various hidden chambers. Their meaning is not entirely certain, but they are thought to be builder's marks and calculations, rather than having a symbolic or religious function. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43314221/n.../#.XWiPgS4zZEY
As for the absence of such markings in the main chambers - yes, it is believed that whatever writing and artwork existed in the main chambers was destroyed by looting and / or decay. As I noted previously, it is unreasonable to assume that the walls of the pyramids would have been decorated in the same way as the temples of the much later dynasties - these were very different civilisations, functioning at very different times in history.
It seems to me that the question is not "What evidence is there that the Great Pyramid was intended to be a tomb?", but rather "What reason is there to suspect that it was not?"
Of course it is well known that the Giza Pyramids do line up with the stars of the belt of Orion.
And some were tombs, but I am not sure about the Giza Pyramids.
I mainly took notice of the mud brick Pyramids of the 12th Dynasty the last these built by Semite Slaves, according to Rosalie David, head of the Egyptian Collection of the Manchester Museum, the Largest Egyptian collection in the Manchester Museum. In her book she says that we do not know who these slaves were, or why they suddenly disappeared from Egypt at the end of the 13th Dynasty.
But I know. Archaeology records like the "Ipuwer Papyrus" does coincide with what is written a book that I am not suppose to mention in ICEINSPACE. That Papyrus tells the same story of the Exodus plagues on Egypt.
Alex, I know it was a couple of days ago that we discussed Iron, but I am only on internet two or three days a week, so here is my answer to that --
the Bible does mention that Iron was worked very early before the flood;
Iron pots, etc. have been dug up in Coal Seams said to be millions of years Old.
Back in the 1970s I was a member of Sydney Speleological Society. We had one member – I forgot his name now decades later-- who was a coal mining geologist from the Illawarra region. I asked him about these Iron artefacts that were dug up in coal and he replied,
“I have seen these artefacts,”
but he did not want to talk much about what he had seen – as a geologist he wrote reports that said that the coal seams were millions of years old – perhaps that is why he did not want to talk about Iron Pots. etc., that were dug up in coal that was said to be between 20 & 100 million years old. A number of members of that Sydney Speleological Society did believe in evolution, so perhaps he did not want to cause controversy by talking of these ancient Iron Artefacts found in that coal.
But it does not take much technology to smelt Iron ore into workable Iron, as this Youtube video does show.
But many ancient races did not have Iron – their races had forgotten how to do this very simple smelting.
The top of mount Everest, over 8,000 metres 29,000 feet above sea level has sea shells. That is it was once underwater. How many years ago is not important for this discussion.
I was shown a nautilus shell from base camp at Mount EveresT after an in-law did visit there.
So as Everest can rise out of the sea, a city called Atlantis could sink to ocean depths.
Now Noahs flood was mentioned – not by me as far as the first mention in this thread. But was a world wide flood possible ??
Well see the above Post on Everest for a start.
Every Continent of the world has the story of a world wide flood that covered the top of every mountain.
Now most on this forum do not believe the Bible, but Genesis 1 says that “God divided the waters above from the waters beneath.” Some Creationists do think of this “Waters above” as a 40 foot Water Canopy above the atmosphere, that is at the edge of space. This fits many Scientific facts. That would mean, if looking at Earth from Mars back then, it would appear a bit like Venus, us not being able to see down to the surface of the planet.
But let us look at some other possible explanations, For example say this planet once had Rings of Water as in Saturns rings, around it, which did collapse, causing that recorded world wide flood ??
There is at least one moon of Frozen water in our Solar System. What if one previously was knocked out of orbit, and headed down to out world. Could that have happened in the past ??
What about a large comet or comets, which are basically dirty snowballs. What if they hit the earth.
Or perhaps a combination of more than one of these.
I tend to believe the water canopy, perhaps frozen as Ice, but am open on tis matter. But the possibilities from what we do know about our solar system are also interesting – none should set their ideas in concrete, but be open to other ideas.
Oh and volcanic eruptions can put out enormous amounts of Superheated water If that was pushed to the edge of space by volcanic erpuptions that could have bought down any such a water canopy..
I mean, even Alex is a heretic because he doubts the Big bang -- I have not yet rejected that Big Bang theory, but do listen to other ideas.
This is what hat “Heretic” Alex said earlier [If the inquisition was still going they would also burn me at the stake for Heresy]:--
“Me I am very lucky I don't believe in anything or that anything I hear is necessarily the truth..heck I don't buy the big bang theory and that seems to be proved beyond doubt...but with humans we can tell each other we have it all worked out and so any one who may see an alternative or a flaw is never taken seriously and usually attacked and labled a fool, a nutter, etc... but it is funny how through out history we can often see that these nutters have been vindicated and the mob who thought they knew it all proved to be just wrong.”
Oh Alex, you stated that you have problems with the big bang. I have not fully rejected the big bang as yet, but do see that there could be another explanation of the universe.
I have a DVD video called “Big Problems with the Big Bang.” Problem for you is it is a DVD by Creationists.
Alex said:--
“So I like sitting on the fence...when it all boils down...I don't know...I have to rely on others to interpret their findings, I have to accept that they made correct interpretations...now all that tells me there is no point in taking a stand on anything at all...take big bang..basically it stands or falls on the universe expanding..and all say it is and all say there measurements tests reseach etc is correct and everyone around are all satisfied that they have the expansion down pat...and now no one will every look at the possibility that our observations supporting expansion could be flawed... tired light explains red shift a little voice at the back of the room murmers...heritic, fool, nutter, crank throw him out, banish him...well what if that poor fool is correct? the big bang can only be a mirage... now I don't say I know either way but I doubt that we say unequivocally that we really do know...and then think who came up with the idea...someone who has been raised with a preoccupation of a creation...so I see there could be vested reasons for a support that really don't want that little voice in the back of the room questioning anything at all...so remaining unconvinced either way is my way of dealing with everything no matter how well it is established researched etc....”
Normally I do not read the magazine, “New Scientist,” but pick up a second hand copy, because it had an article, “What if the Speed of Light is infinite.” Yes if the Speed of light was infinite the universe would be smaller than currently thought.
Yes that would change a real lot of so called Science – E=MC squared, etc.
That magazine pointed out that one cluster of distant galaxies all do have different red shifts, where it is accepted that they all are roughly the same distance from our sun, etc. Now not having a P.HD in Astrophysics [no qualifications at all in that field – have read a few bits of books on this. Do have a copy of an “Encyclopaedia of Astronomy and Astrophysics” that my wife purchased for me for one dollar from a table of second hand books. She also got another astronomy text book at one dollar], I do not plan on discussing this “WHAT IF” any further as I will be out of my depth.
But as I did say elsewhere, it appears that the Speed of Light is actually slowing down, because every time the Speed of Light is measured, the results are for a lower speed.
Alex, perhaps you are wrong and Gravity actually SUCKS at that light slowing it down – Ha Ha No Alex, I am not serious.
There is very little in the way of "documentary" evidence dating back to the era of the pyramids, other than the "hard" evidence (pottery, jewellery, buildings, sculptures, etc) - pretty well all of the "soft" evidence (papyrus, fabrics, official records and histories, etc) has been lost. The history trail was well and truly cold by the time of the celebrated later dynasties of Tutankhamen, Nefertiti, etc - they were mystified by the purpose and function of the pyramids, because the culture of the much earlier pyramid-builders was entirely foreign to them.
We KNOW that the earliest pyramids were used as tombs, because funerary remains have been found in some; we also know that virtually all tombs and temples of that period (including mausoleums, in-ground burials, cave burials, and the pyramids) were comprehensively looted well before the later Egyptian dynasties. The Egyptian pyramids were an evolution from earlier structures (mastabas in Egypt, ziggurats in Mesopotamia before that), and we also know that these too were used as temples and tombs.
It is incorrect to state that there are no hieroglyphics in the Great Pyramid - they HAVE been found in the various hidden chambers. Their meaning is not entirely certain, but they are thought to be builder's marks and calculations, rather than having a symbolic or religious function. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43314221/n.../#.XWiPgS4zZEY
As for the absence of such markings in the main chambers - yes, it is believed that whatever writing and artwork existed in the main chambers was destroyed by looting and / or decay. As I noted previously, it is unreasonable to assume that the walls of the pyramids would have been decorated in the same way as the temples of the much later dynasties - these were very different civilisations, functioning at very different times in history.
It seems to me that the question is not "What evidence is there that the Great Pyramid was intended to be a tomb?", but rather "What reason is there to suspect that it was not?"
Nice informative post Julian. Thank you.
I will work on both questions and arrive at pros and cons for each.
Something I noticed the other day and did not follow up..which I regret now...but apparently dna tests link Australian Aboriginals to South America..which is something I have never heard of...so I must follow up on that.
If you look at the Sumerians history you can form the impression that survivors of the supposed sea level rise were the gods they refer to ..or at least these survivors were seen as such...interestingly they lived in the garden of eden or paradice which translates to "where the animals are kept"...
There is a underwater city in India that I understand the government stopped research on because it threatened to cut across popula history.
alex
the dingo that the Aborigines bought to Australia is a close relative of India's Yellow face wolf. So many have thought that they came from India. And yes, India also had the Boomerang, and many aboriginal words are identical to this from India. So I would like more evidence on this matter.
Alex, I know it was a couple of days ago that we discussed Iron, but I am only on internet two or three days a week, so here is my answer to that --
the Bible does mention that Iron was worked very early before the flood;
Iron pots, etc. have been dug up in Coal Seams said to be millions of years Old.
Back in the 1970s I was a member of Sydney Speleological Society. We had one member – I forgot his name now decades later-- who was a coal mining geologist from the Illawarra region. I asked him about these Iron artefacts that were dug up in coal and he replied,
“I have seen these artefacts,”
but he did not want to talk much about what he had seen – as a geologist he wrote reports that said that the coal seams were millions of years old – perhaps that is why he did not want to talk about Iron Pots. etc., that were dug up in coal that was said to be between 20 & 100 million years old. A number of members of that Sydney Speleological Society did believe in evolution, so perhaps he did not want to cause controversy by talking of these ancient Iron Artefacts found in that coal.
But it does not take much technology to smelt Iron ore into workable Iron, as this Youtube video does show.
But many ancient races did not have Iron – their races had forgotten how to do this very simple smelting.
This is what hat “Heretic” Alex said earlier [If the inquisition was still going they would also burn me at the stake for Heresy]:--
“Me I am very lucky I don't believe in anything or that anything I hear is necessarily the truth..heck I don't buy the big bang theory and that seems to be proved beyond doubt...but with humans we can tell each other we have it all worked out and so any one who may see an alternative or a flaw is never taken seriously and usually attacked and labled a fool, a nutter, etc... but it is funny how through out history we can often see that these nutters have been vindicated and the mob who thought they knew it all proved to be just wrong.”
Oh Alex, you stated that you have problems with the big bang. I have not fully rejected the big bang as yet, but do see that there could be another explanation of the universe.
I have a DVD video called “Big Problems with the Big Bang.” Problem for you is it is a DVD by Creationists.
Alex said:--
“So I like sitting on the fence...when it all boils down...I don't know...I have to rely on others to interpret their findings, I have to accept that they made correct interpretations...now all that tells me there is no point in taking a stand on anything at all...take big bang..basically it stands or falls on the universe expanding..and all say it is and all say there measurements tests reseach etc is correct and everyone around are all satisfied that they have the expansion down pat...and now no one will every look at the possibility that our observations supporting expansion could be flawed... tired light explains red shift a little voice at the back of the room murmers...heritic, fool, nutter, crank throw him out, banish him...well what if that poor fool is correct? the big bang can only be a mirage... now I don't say I know either way but I doubt that we say unequivocally that we really do know...and then think who came up with the idea...someone who has been raised with a preoccupation of a creation...so I see there could be vested reasons for a support that really don't want that little voice in the back of the room questioning anything at all...so remaining unconvinced either way is my way of dealing with everything no matter how well it is established researched etc....”
Normally I do not read the magazine, “New Scientist,” but pick up a second hand copy, because it had an article, “What if the Speed of Light is infinite.” Yes if the Speed of light was infinite the universe would be smaller than currently thought.
Yes that would change a real lot of so called Science – E=MC squared, etc.
That magazine pointed out that one cluster of distant galaxies all do have different red shifts, where it is accepted that they all are roughly the same distance from our sun, etc. Now not having a P.HD in Astrophysics [no qualifications at all in that field – have read a few bits of books on this. Do have a copy of an “Encyclopaedia of Astronomy and Astrophysics” that my wife purchased for me for one dollar from a table of second hand books. She also got another astronomy text book at one dollar], I do not plan on discussing this “WHAT IF” any further as I will be out of my depth.
But as I did say elsewhere, it appears that the Speed of Light is actually slowing down, because every time the Speed of Light is measured, the results are for a lower speed.
Alex, perhaps you are wrong and Gravity actually SUCKS at that light slowing it down – Ha Ha No Alex, I am not serious.
All very interesting...however when it comes to science old books are usually inadequate as they contain only ideas etc from their time period and as we discover new things daily one needs the latest book to get the up to date position...so even books 20 years old may be useless and usually the older they are the more useless they get ...And I don't have to name names as that principle holds for all publications.
Let me confide in you John ..I am the only human who really understands gravity and exactly how everything in the universe works...in 1000 years I will be shown to be correct in everything...just wait and see.
Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnF
the dingo that the Aborigines bought to Australia is a close relative of India's Yellow face wolf. So many have thought that they came from India. And yes, India also had the Boomerang, and many aboriginal words are identical to this from India. So I would like more evidence on this matter.
I will ask when I go to my favorite Indian restaurant.
Alex
My reference to aliens and UFOs was not aimed at you, it was more a general frustration that when people can't imagine how THEY could personally achieve what has been done in the past, they start to resort to other explanations, or to doubt that the project could have been completed in a sensible timeline. However, if you take away the references to UFOs, aliens and voodoo (for which i apologise), I stand by the remainder of my post.
For the specifics of the Great Pyramid, yes, it is an astonishing undertaking, but it is in fact quite achievable in 20 years - or less! I really do urge you to check the project management article that I linked, because they present the maths for the man-power quite convincingly. (They even factor in days off and holidays, allowing 280 x 10-hour days per worker per year.) https://web.archive.org/web/20070608.../0699feat.html
A few key highlights, though.
There are about 2.6 million cubic metres of material, estimated to be about 2 million blocks. While some of the blocks are massive, the majority are around 1 cubic metre, and weigh about 2 1/2 tonnes each. Yes, these are substantial objects, but we KNOW that a team of about 20 labourers can haul such a bock up an earthen ramp on a sled, without needing wheels or rollers.
Note that the blocks are not uniform in size, they actually get smaller as we go up - this is presumably part of their methodology for moving these quantities of stone blocks to such heights. The vast majority of blocks are completely undressed; finishing was generally done in-situ on the visible faces only, and presumably a skilled artisan workforce was employed on this aspect.
A common misconception is to assume that the rate of installation of the 2 million blocks was something like constant over the life of the project - say 500 - 600 blocks per day over a 10-year program (or whatever number you arrive at depending on the assumed time-line) - but this is not the case!
As the structure is a pyramid, the vast bulk of the material is in the lower tiers. 7/8 of the total material is in the bottom half of the height, only 1/8 of the material, or about 250,000 blocks, comprise the whole top half! The paper estimates that there are about 250 layers of blocks in the main structure, but that 2/3 of the blocks had been placed by level 50; there are only about 7,000 blocks in the last 20 layers.
The delivery rate of the blocks can be MUCH higher at the base than at the top - because the base is vast, there is not much problem with bringing in blocks from multiple directions. The base is 230 metres to a side, so you can easily conceive of how you could initially have dozens of teams bringing in blocks from all directions.
Things get more challenging as we go up, because we get more and more restricted in the number of ramps, and the widths and lengths of those ramps - but the number of blocks per layer drops off rapidly. The paper assumes a single ramp, with a 15% gradient; the final volume of the ramp works out to be about 1/3 that of the pyramid itself, and its construction and removal is factored into the whole project undertaking. We know that a 15% ramp is feasible, because there are archaeological sites at quarries where such ramps (and steeper) have been found, as well as evidence of the technology used to haul the blocks up the ramps.
In the early stages of construction, a team of 20 could probably move a couple of blocks a day from a staging area at the base of the pyramid into position; as height is gained, the hauling distance becomes longer, and it takes one or more days for each block to reach its finished location - but we are moving far fewer blocks per day than at the start. 20 to 50 metres behind the first team is another team, and another behind that, and another behind that... At the end of each working day, all the blocks are left where they lie, the crew go off for a meal and a sleep, and the next day they all pick-up where they left off.
Yes, an astonishing undertaking, requiring fantastic project management - but entirely achievable with the technology and labour force that we know they had.
You may be interested to know that one of the early pyramids -- forget which one has a couple of dates on the blocks, showing how long it took the builders to get that Pyramid up to that level. Not a long time from memory.
As far as "aliens," a number of very famous evolutionists with P.HD's have claimed that Aliens seeded our planet with DNA, as they raised that DNA could not come about by chance. From memory that includes Physicists Richard Dawkins plus Hawkins, etc. I do not subscribe to that Idea.
You may be interested to know that one of the early pyramids -- forget which one has a couple of dates on the blocks, showing how long it took the builders to get that Pyramid up to that level. Not a long time from memory.
As far as "aliens," a number of very famous evolutionists with P.HD's have claimed that Aliens seeded our planet with DNA, as they raised that DNA could not come about by chance. From memory that includes Physicists Richard Dawkins plus Hawkins, etc. I do not subscribe to that Idea.
If Richard Dawkins said it you can take it as being true...one of the most decent humans to ever have lived ..spoke only the truth and his books were wonderful..well I think they would be as I have not read any of them.
I have watched maybe all his videos and what you suggest just does not fit the man I know..maybe it's a context thing...can you be more specific.
But I guess what we need to come up with is when he said this ...did he really say this? I sure would like to know John.
So can you get me a link to a transcript or a video?
And please the same for Hawkins..I presume you mean who I think you mean..yes I would like to read their exact words or see the video.
All this is a part of what you said on another thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave
My bottom line is...all these things are unknown ..any human who tells you they have the answer are perhaps mistaken..one may as well attribute creation to the feathered serpent of South America ....or simply say..truthfully..I really do not know.
One should look at who tells us what to believe and why...to investigate those answers will give you all you need to know. Who tells you what to believe? Why?
Alex
Alex it is interesting to look at ancient Statues of the Egyptian creator god named "Ptah."
You might not know that at least some ancient statues of Ptah do show him with serpent scales, and with wings wrapped around him, covering his body.
Now I definitely do not believe that the creator god was a winged serpent, but around the whole world winged Serpent creator gods are widely found.
. The winged serpent worship is found in absolutely every continent of the world, Antartica of course being the exception.
I can show you why, but that would require me to give a number of quotes from a certain book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave
If Richard Dawkins said it you can take it as being true...one of the most decent humans to ever have lived ..spoke only the truth and his books were wonderful..well I think they would be as I have not read any of them.
I have watched maybe all his videos and what you suggest just does not fit the man I know..maybe it's a context thing...can you be more specific.
But I guess what we need to come up with is when he said this ...did he really say this? I sure would like to know John.
So can you get me a link to a transcript or a video?
And please the same for Hawkins..I presume you mean who I think you mean..yes I would like to read their exact words or see the video.
Will try to track that down sometime. was giving this from memory.
Alex, just did a google search. Not mentioning Aliens I found this. may have been getting Richard Hawkins mixed up with Dr, Davies, Paul C.W. the Physicist.
As far as "aliens," a number of very famous evolutionists with P.HD's have claimed that Aliens seeded our planet with DNA, as they raised that DNA could not come about by chance. From memory that includes Physicists Richard Dawkins plus Hawkins, etc. I do not subscribe to that Idea.
Another internet myth, which is very easy to disprove (especially in the case of Richard Dawkins):
Do a search for "dawkins panspermia", and you will find plenty of refutation from the man himself; e.g.
Stephen Hawking has indeed publicly entertained the possibility that life on Earth might have come from space - but that is not the same thing as claiming that it is true - and he is on record as being an atheist and Darwinian evolutionist, I don't believe he ever claimed that DNA could not come about by chance.
(And I suspect that Richard Dawkins would also concede that it is possible that life on Earth might have come from space - but he doesn't think it is at all likely, and certainly not for the reasons claimed!)
Please - if we're going to have claims that "so and so has apparently said ...", please take the trouble to check first whether they "apparently" said it, or "absolutely did NOT" say it.
So playing with numbers...the great pyramid is estimated to weigh 6 million tons...that means we need a delivery rate of 34 tons each hour every hour for 20 years.
If you have them working only half the day or 12 hours that is 68 ton each hour of the work day...when you include weekends whatever if nothing else we can conclude they were a busy little bunch...in things I read in the link provided by Julian where they talked about the 10,000 big village they said that these workers could build a pyramid in 30 years...that 10 more years I have not heard about.
The numbers of workers is hard to pin down..reference to the worker village at 10,000 but elsewhere is mentioned far greater numbers.
So how many men in a per ton per hour do we need...one must be able to come up with a simple sum...anyways it looks as though I will have to study much more to come up with a variety of propositions.
Let's work out what one would cost to build today...easy cost per ton laid...say $2 a kilo for starters...how much I wonder.
Alex
