What is a good autoguiding camera?

gregbradley · #1 13-07-2010, 04:26 PM

I currently use an SBIG ST402ME as an autoguider.

It is very good for that purpose. My main concern with it is the
fact it loses connection with the computer often and needs to be rebooted every time often requiring shutdown and restart of CCDsoft.

It has a weak power connector. I need to replace it.

Still I am wondering if there is a better autoguider. One that is more modern and is not so dependent on the computer.

I used a Starfish for a while and that wasn't bad. I had an early model and the computer froze occassionally and the updated drivers wouldn't load in Vista (then again it was a fight to get anything to work in Vista).

That had the advantage of super fast downloads and exposures.

I can do .25 second exposure times with my ST402 on a reasonable guide star.

I have no trouble getting a guide stars when using the 66ED guide scope but do when using a Vixen 95VMC.

So what is the list of good guiding cameras? Perhaps a Flea 3 and it can do double duty as a planetary camera as well.

Greg.

multiweb (Marc) · #2 13-07-2010, 05:13 PM

SX-Lodestar from starlight xpress.

Bassnut (Fred) · #3 13-07-2010, 06:46 PM

Well, Im not familiar with the loadstar but it has 65% QE over the ST402MEs 85%, and as far as I know the ST402 is the only cooled guide cam (to-30deg delta) which is important for long guide exposures on weak stars. It also has a shutter so you can easily take darks for it, which makes a huge difference and it can be binned.

Of course if you always guide 2 secs or less then there are many excellent choices, I found the QHY5 at 2secs or less fine.

gbeal · #4 13-07-2010, 07:02 PM

I'll side with Kermit. Lodestar for me too.
Small, light, efficient. Mounted in an old 50mm finder, it is guiding the VC200L at 1800mm as we speak.
Gary

jase (Jason) · #5 13-07-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregbradley

I currently use an SBIG ST402ME as an autoguider.

...and you're expecting something better on todays market? Let me know when you find it....

The KAF-402ME chip provides the best value for serious auto guiding with its NABG characteristics and extremely high QE. It makes obtaining guide stars an absolute breeze and is versatile. I've used it with OAG's attached to PIR's through to piggy-back set ups via a wide field refractor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassnut

It also has a shutter so you can easily take darks for it, which makes a huge difference and it can be binned.

Too right Fred. Not sure if others have tried this, but guider darks and bias will allow you to obtained cleaner guider images allowing you to guide on even fainter stars. Why would I do that? We'll if you're operating an OAG and guide star selection is limited for a specific framing composition, you'll need to guide on a fainter star. Lets face it, guiding through an OAG doesn't deliver the brightest of images (MMOAG maybe an exception). How faint? It will depend on guider noise, but the concept of calibration frames is to reduce that noise so that the guiding algorithm doesn't mistaken a group of hot pixels as a faint star (rare these days but it happens). If you let automation software determine the guider interval, you can simply take a 15 or 20 sec dark and use the bias to scale to match the guider frame duration. Easy. MaximDL supports full guider calibration in which I recommend utilising.

Stick with the 402ME, or sell it to make someone else really happy.

strongmanmike (Michael) · #6 13-07-2010, 07:37 PM

I have the original SX guider but I am not directly familiar with the Lodstar but it sounds fantastic and by all reports is. Also remember though that any one of the smaller StarlightXpress camera's make excellent autoguiders too. They are all small and light (and pretty cheap), with the clean sensitive Sony chips and great cooling (no darks necessary at all) you can't get a better guider IMO.

I use the SXV-H9 as my guide camera which has a 9mm X 6.7mm chip and its sensitivity is good enough to clearly show a guide star in no more than a 2sec guide exposure every time at 1200mm FL through my 80ED guide scope, no darks either and I have never had to move the guide scope or reframe a picture to get a suitable guide star. Of course it is more expensive than one of the small dedicated guiders but there is always the SXV-M7 or M5 to consider too...mind you, second hand versions of any of these little beaut CCD's go for little more (or even less) than one of the less sensitive dedicated guiders do new...?

Just some thoughts

Mike

Doomsayer · #7 13-07-2010, 08:40 PM

The ST402 is still the go with its great QE. With my RC-PME rig and the 402 attached by a MMOAG off axis guider, there is always a guidestar on the chip (I generally use longish guide exposures to smooth out corrections Vs seeing). It seems to be the industry standard in this configuration with big RCs (etc) and Paramounts. That said, I'm using a Remote Guide Head & OAG with my STL6303 at the moment - I'm now using the 402 elsewhere. I had a dodgy power cable too - reliable once that is fixed.
Mike's H9 camera sounds good as well.

gregbradley · #8 13-07-2010, 09:51 PM

The Lodestar is one I thought might be good.
Of course I also need to repair my ST402 so its power plug is more reliable. Probably easy enough to do and also to upgrade to a more
professional plug and jack system. It is a very sensitive camera.

Yes the 402 is sensitive and I have no trouble getting a guide star.
I found with it though darks make it worse not better. Not sure why.
The stars get fainter with darks not clearer. Strange, but that's what happens and always has with it.

I have had it where using autoselect has picked a hot pixel instead of a star. I get around that by using subframe and I frame the guide star I want in a smaller frame. That works well.

Is the Lodestar able to be controlled by CCDsoft?

I'd like to try out a Starlight Express camera. It is true the ST402 is very often used but that dependence on the computer is way out of date and often causes me a lot of trouble. The very slow connect also seems out of date whereas the FLI gear and Apogee connects instantly. I'd like it all at the same standard.

The Starfish wasn't too bad either. Sony chip. It was CMOS not CCD and capable of very fast downloads, internal buffer but the problem with that one was updating the driver was impossible with Vista and the driver it came with did an occassional freeze. Since been fixed.

Thanks for the advice so far.

Greg.

gregbradley · #9 13-07-2010, 09:52 PM

I use the SXV-H9 as my guide camera which has a 9mm X 6.7mm chip and its sensitivity is good enough to clearly show a guide star in no more than a 2sec guide exposure every time at 1200mm FL through my 80ED guide scope,
Mike[/QUOTE]

How do you get 1200mm focal length with an ED80 - do you use a 2X barlow?

Greg.

Bassnut (Fred) · #10 14-07-2010, 10:37 AM

The SBIG SG4 looks good, and is a standalone autoguider (no PC).

Geoff45 (Geoff) · #11 14-07-2010, 11:55 AM

Craig Stark (PHD author) had a shootout in the Oct/Nov 2008 AstroPhoto Insight between various Meade DSI's, Orion Starshoot autoguider, Atik 16-1C, Fishcamp Starfish, Opticstar PL-130, Imaging source DMK 31AF and the Lodestar.

The Lodestar came out tops with the cleanest, deepest images.

Be aware that you may have to wait for one. Mine took 2 months from AEC in Adelaide, although they recently got a shipment.

gregbradley · #12 14-07-2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassnut

The SBIG SG4 looks good, and is a standalone autoguider (no PC).

Yes that does look good. I'll see if I can find some reviews about it. Its been out for a while and I haven't heard much about it.

There was also some smart autoguider Anacortes announced recently as well. The LVI I think it was called.

Perhaps 2 autoguiders could be good to achieve the differential guiding approach to eliminate flexure without an off axis guider.

Greg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghsmith45

Craig Stark (PHD author) had a shootout in the Oct/Nov 2008 AstroPhoto Insight between various Meade DSI's, Orion Starshoot autoguider, Atik 16-1C, Fishcamp Starfish, Opticstar PL-130, Imaging source DMK 31AF and the Lodestar.

The Lodestar came out tops with the cleanest, deepest images.

Be aware that you may have to wait for one. Mine took 2 months from AEC in Adelaide, although they recently got a shipment.

Thanks for that. How do you like yours? Is it dependent on the computer to keep running if the connection is interrupted? (ie does it have an internal buffer).

One advantage of the Starfish is it is powered by the USB cable and no second power cable (unless you use the cooled version).

Greg.

Bassnut (Fred) · #13 14-07-2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregbradley

Yes that does look good. I'll see if I can find some reviews about it. Its been out for a while and I haven't heard much about it.

There was also some smart autoguider Anacortes announced recently as well. The LVI I think it was called.

Perhaps 2 autoguiders could be good to achieve the differential guiding approach to eliminate flexure without an off axis guider.

Greg.

Thanks for that. How do you like yours? Is it dependent on the computer to keep running if the connection is interrupted? (ie does it have an internal buffer).

One advantage of the Starfish is it is powered by the USB cable and no second power cable (unless you use the cooled version).

Greg.

Greg, the SG4 has the SBIG differential guider function already built in (with SBIG cams), and bluetooth compatibility!.

Its dawned on me that whether you guide through a guide scope or via long FL OAG makes all the diff. For regular external 2 sec guide as per Mike etc, the cams mentioned here would all do, but for OAG and AO its a different story altogether. Then cooling, darks, binning all become very important.

In my experience, the QHY5 with an ED80 was fine, and Im sure others mentioned are even better, but for long FL OAG/AO, the QHY5 didnt cut it, and I wouldnt expect it to. I bin3 with cooling and darks now, as Jase says, otherwise noise and false auto selection/calibration on hot pixels made it impossible.

In short, external guide with a guide scope is much less critical (with different results ofcourse, depending on FL).

gregbradley · #14 14-07-2010, 07:39 PM

Good point Fred. So QE is the senior consideration then using OAG's.
I tried using my ST402 on a Vixen 96LMC and immediately had troube finding guide stars. And it has very high QE.

The SG4 KAI340 has only 55% QE.

I need a 2nd autoguider anyway as I am about to start imaging with 12 setups (CDK17 on a PME and TEC180 or AP140 on the NJP). So MMOAG with the CDK and a guide scope with the APOs.

Having something that is totally automatic sounds good in one way but a bit worrisome in another. What if it freaks out about something at 2am?
I imagine SBIG have it so it is bulletproof and reliable.

I had trouble at one point not being able to callibrate the ST402 due to hot pixels. I solved that by using subframing so I had a single bright star in the subframed image and nothing else to confuse the software.

I usually use 1x1 binning with the 402 and 1 second exposures but I sometime use .5 or even .25 second exposures if the seeing is good and there is a slight improvement in tracking. It handles it fine.

Greg.

Bassnut (Fred) · #15 14-07-2010, 07:57 PM

Your going to have to be carefull with the CDK and MMOAG IMO, I would say get the ST402 fixed for that, its made for it, you will need to bin etc, somethings very wrong there, for example I had an SBIG guide cam go noisy on me, and its was a crook cooling connector, after fixing its fine now, wasnt expensive to fix, id keep it and get it fixed.

Then get a regular guide cam for a guide scope for your woozy wide feild (yawn) stuff. For WFW, an external guide cam/scope is far more conveinient.

Doomsayer · #16 15-07-2010, 01:02 PM

So far for me the main pain with the Astrodon Monster MOAG has been getting the Guide cam chip to a point that will focus. This is about where you place the pick off prism behind the socpe and in front of the camera. The camera sits at a fixed distance behind the RC so you have to squeeze the MMOAG into that space (my RC has a moving secondary focuser). Using the off the shelf MMOAG to SBIG-STL adapters I can't quite get the guide cam to focus via the MMOAG helical (borg) focuser - I have to use the shorter MMOAG push-pull drawtube connection. It is possible to move the prism up and down inside the MMOAG via spacers - with a 16803 chip though, you may not have so much room to move the prism. Otherwise, the MMOAG has been ideal and flexure free.

gregbradley · #17 15-07-2010, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomsayer

So far for me the main pain with the Astrodon Monster MOAG has been getting the Guide cam chip to a point that will focus. This is about where you place the pick off prism behind the socpe and in front of the camera. The camera sits at a fixed distance behind the RC so you have to squeeze the MMOAG into that space (my RC has a moving secondary focuser). Using the off the shelf MMOAG to SBIG-STL adapters I can't quite get the guide cam to focus via the MMOAG helical (borg) focuser - I have to use the shorter MMOAG push-pull drawtube connection. It is possible to move the prism up and down inside the MMOAG via spacers - with a 16803 chip though, you may not have so much room to move the prism. Otherwise, the MMOAG has been ideal and flexure free.

Yes that has been my problem with the MMOAG as well. I tried it on a Tak BRC250 after going through adapter hell but no joy with focus no matter what. I tried it on another scope and much the same. I was told there is a lens that you can fit in the focus tube to help it come to focus plus spacers to shift the MMOAG to the right spot.

I have this fun ahead of me when getting it all to work with the CDK.

Greg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassnut

Your going to have to be carefull with the CDK and MMOAG IMO, I would say get the ST402 fixed for that, its made for it, you will need to bin etc, somethings very wrong there, for example I had an SBIG guide cam go noisy on me, and its was a crook cooling connector, after fixing its fine now, wasnt expensive to fix, id keep it and get it fixed.

Then get a regular guide cam for a guide scope for your woozy wide feild (yawn) stuff. For WFW, an external guide cam/scope is far more conveinient.

As much as I don't want I think I have to agree with you Fred.
There may be something wrong with it as the dark subtract makes the image go worse not better. A trip to SBIG coming up for it I think.
Once I get a 2nd autoguider and I can afford for it to be gone for a few weeks. Apart from these niggly things it is a good camera.

Greg.

rat156 · #18 15-07-2010, 07:51 PM

Hi Greg,

Does your main imaging camera have a remote guide head port? If so, get one of those, no power connections to worry about then. I've forgotten what you use to image with...

Cheers
Stuart

gregbradley · #19 16-07-2010, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rat156

Hi Greg,

Does your main imaging camera have a remote guide head port? If so, get one of those, no power connections to worry about then. I've forgotten what you use to image with...

Cheers
Stuart

I used to have an STL and also a remote guide head. A very handy and nice accessory. I like the way SBIG has their gear interlock neatly without a mess of power and USB cables.

I currently use FLI cameras. The Proline has a built in powered USB hub and also 2 power outlets. I just need cables for the power outlets. I have a couple of short USB cables which cleans up the number of cables dangling off the scopes. I also have a little 4 port powered USB hub I intend to attach to the scope to minimise all the cables.

Bring on cordless connections!

I ended up ordering a Starlight Express Lodestar after the many positive remarks.

Another Starfish might also be handy. They power up off a USB cable.
I had one once before. Quite nice really.

Its always good to have several autoguiding solutions.

Greg.

glend (Glen) · #20 11-09-2017, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff45

Craig Stark (PHD author) had a shootout in the Oct/Nov 2008 AstroPhoto Insight between various Meade DSI's, Orion Starshoot autoguider, Atik 16-1C, Fishcamp Starfish, Opticstar PL-130, Imaging source DMK 31AF and the Lodestar.

The Lodestar came out tops with the cleanest, deepest images.

Be aware that you may have to wait for one. Mine took 2 months from AEC in Adelaide, although they recently got a shipment.

That is based on a 2008 test, surely there must have been some changes in the market and performance in rhe last nine years? What is thd current state of the art?