Your shot is great...please describe "normal"!!

[StuTodd]

I write this in frustration IIS deep sky imager.

You ask for crit, and freely pour scorn upon your own brand new creations newly forged on the pixels of your chosen cameras. Post number 1.

So I (and 15000 other potential viewers apparently) read your dire review of your image before bothering to "have a look" and let our hard drives spoil their parts by downloading your hard won, high cost crap...

But no.....wait..

You have obviously no idea what "coma" is, "over saturated" the over saturated excuse line.. looked at it too long in pixinsight and photoshop..

What I am trying to say is..your shots are beautiful, every gorgeous photon has probably been done sometime anyway.. there is no true palette so if your "Jive dancing Moose American silly name" nebula doesn't look so Hubble, just enjoy it and be proud that every element in your body, and that of your hard won imaging equipment, are one and the same. Stop moaning ..

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

It's not clear what you're trying to say. But it seems to me that you're somewhat upset or trying to make a strong point or express a strong opinion. For me it's not working because I cannot understand you.

Here is something that I use to help me relax and collect my thoughts:
https://youtu.be/_W4PJUOeVYw - give it a few minutes and let it do its thing.

[StuTodd]

Oh well..

[StuTodd]

Q. How many posts of DSO shots to astronomy forums worldwide per day?
A. Thousands.

Q. Are any useless?
A. No, but depends upon the viewers stand point, generally no..

9/10 users have already said what they should improve upon before we can view their work as it loads up.. so why? Go straight to flickr or astrobin etc for artistic crit.

You could always do some actual science, photometry or spectroscopy, and benefit mankind in your photon capture...

Stu

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

You're weird.

[Shiraz (Ray)]

Originally Posted by StuTodd

I write this in frustration IIS deep sky imager.

You ask for crit, and freely pour scorn upon your own brand new creations newly forged on the pixels of your chosen cameras. Post number 1.

So I (and 15000 other potential viewers apparently) read your dire review of your image before bothering to "have a look" and let our hard drives spoil their parts by downloading your hard won, high cost crap...

But no.....wait..

You have obviously no idea what "coma" is, "over saturated" the over saturated excuse line.. looked at it too long in pixinsight and photoshop..

What I am trying to say is..your shots are beautiful, every gorgeous photon has probably been done sometime anyway.. there is no true palette so if your "Jive dancing Moose American silly name" nebula doesn't look so Hubble, just enjoy it and be proud that every element in your body, and that of your hard won imaging equipment, are one and the same. Stop moaning ..

you have a point, but when we spend 10+ hours looking at an image, trying to do the best possible processing job, we are all too well aware that we have made tradeoffs to get to the end product. I think that it is reasonable to point out known limitations in an image - it helps others to understand why an image looks like it does and may inform their future efforts in imaging and processing.

[StuTodd]

I was maybe waxing lyrical there but that's a fair point Ray.

It just seems strange that imagers note how bad a shot is before we have chance to look at it.

Sorry if I come across as weird.. I'm not having a go, just an observation.

[gregbradley]

Stu, I take it from what you wrote you don't like the criticism levelled at astro images keeping in mind the hard work, money, long hours processing and even longer hours debugging and making gear work, deciding on gear combinations, debugging software and drivers etc. It goes a bit unappreciated right? Plus sometimes it merely boils down to artistic viewpoint differences of opinion (except for the objective parts which are 90% of the image though).

Artistic critique is common on this site. Its mostly very helpful. Sometimes unpalatable, but this site is very polite. I have met many of the people who post here and they are very fine people. I often find people point out things I have overlooked. Sometimes its merely a difference of artistic opinion other times its an objective thing that others will agree on and you can see yourself once pointed out to you. I find sometimes my images evolve as a result of posting here from this process. At the end they are often better for it. It would be great to post an image in a near perfect state that cannot be improved on but that's rarely the case.

Keep in mind that your processing is to some degree subjective and taste comes into it now digital manipulation means colour can be made to almost anything. But of course there is an objective element to an astrophoto. Was the tracking done well and the stars are round? Nothing subjective about that.

Is it noisy or well exposed? Again nothing subjective about that. Perhaps slightly differing opinions about how long but noise or no noise is not subjective.

Framing and composition is a bit subjective but even there, there are established guidelines that are well known for that. Plus plenty of excellent examples to follow as a guide.

Are the stars well processed and no bad rings or bloats, bleeding, artifacts, fuzziness, harsh sharpening? Again objective measures.

Are the bright areas overexposed and blown out? Again objective.

So not that much in the end is really personal interpretation or subjective.
Its either well executed and well processed or its not by pretty commonly held standards. Narrowband has a bit more leeway because its artificial colour anyway.

Now if you want to see what rude and downright antagonistic/antisocial looks like then have a look at DPreview posts about someone's posted photo. Wow. This site now looks positively friendly and civil by comparison, which of course it is.

Its one of the things I like about this site. The tone of the posts and people here is overwhelmingly positive and encouraging and appreciative. Sometimes it gets a tad competitive but really not that much and a little is fine if it makes us strive to do better.

If one finds the critiques too hard to take it would be better to not post the images publicly or state upfront you are not looking for critiques and I am sure the community here would respect your wishes there.

But yeah I have seen it where someone jumps in early in a posting to criticise an image unfairly in an attempt to stifle others appreciating and being positive about an image. Luckily that sort of thing is not that common but yes it does happen sometimes. Call it artistic jealousy!

Greg.

[Nikolas (Nik)]

I for one welcome constructive criticism as it helps to iron out things I may not have spotted, understood or even considered.
In all the images I have seen on this site and really on a lot of other astronomy sites, I have not seen any negative comments, only mentions of how the image could be better/improved etc.

[LightningNZ (Cam)]

Opinion is opinion but if an image looks black/white clipped, vignetted, or something else that's easily fixable then I'll point it out because maybe the maker of the image will be happier with the modified result. That's just educational. Obviously I try to do it in a polite, friendly and encouraging way. I'm more than happy for similar input on my own images.

[goober (Doug)]

If it's getting to you, I present ...

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/getnew-noimages.php

[StuTodd]

Originally Posted by gregbradley

Stu, I take it from what you wrote you don't like the criticism levelled at astro images keeping in mind the hard work, money, long hours processing and even longer hours debugging and making gear work, deciding on gear combinations, debugging software and drivers etc.
Greg.

I was observing that people knock their own images in the original post..
Something along the lines of "Here is my shot of M7, it is rubbish, full of coma and the focus is off..." etc.
It just seemed odd..criticism from other forum members is fantastic and a great help of course!

Stu

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

@StuTodd Sorry I may have misunderstood your OP - honestly I did not understand it at all, just thought I sensed some hostility. Seems like gregbradley gets your meaning. Thanks greg for the translation for thick skulls like mine.

If you want all thumbs up and praises, stick your astrophotos on facebook.

This is an amateurs' site but a fair few of the amateurs here are in fact self taught world class experts, and they won't beat around the bush.

[gregbradley]

Originally Posted by StuTodd

I was observing that people knock their own images in the original post..
Something along the lines of "Here is my shot of M7, it is rubbish, full of coma and the focus is off..." etc.
It just seemed odd..criticism from other forum members is fantastic and a great help of course!

Stu

Oh I see. Self demeaning comments. Kind of like a self harm!

Just a personal oddity or an attempt to be humble/apologetic for perceived weaknesses in the image. Some may feel a bit
backed off because a lot of the images here these days are world class.

But any image posted from what I see mostly receives encouragement and gentle coaching. So no need to be self apologetic. We all learned somewhere.

Greg.

[astroron (Ron)]

I just think that people lead off with what you said,but then a little bit of humility goes a long way to softening the anticipated criticism that you seem to want, coming your way.
Pointing out the faults in advance by yourself shows that you are aware of the
"faults" and are maybe fishing for answers as to fixing them,or maybe reminding your self to do the job better next time.
Cheers

[PRejto (Peter)]

I was reading this thread and thinking of my response.....and then I got to Ron's answer and coludn't agree more.

This hobby is complex and difficult and fantastically rewarding when it all comes together. The learning curve is as steep as it gets. Nobody can post a world class photo from the get go. Sometimes we work really hard and end up with something that doesn't compete with other photos on the same site. Fessing up in the beginning lets others at least know what you are aware of if only to make it unnecessary for others to state the obvious. I was a teacher for many years. When my best students came for a lesson and stated up front what they were having trouble with that made me quite happy. The good ones that walked in like they knew everything were the real worry.

Peter

[astronobob (Bob)]

Hi, StuTodd.
Also every one is different in personality, age, confidence, and some peeps are humble, some are quite frank, whether they be experienced or not so experienced !
There is no correct way to post an image thread and/or comments, they all come down to individualism !
How well one knows the person they are commented too ! how well the Image Thread starter knows and feels about posting their Image ! How an individual feels about themselves (Confident Knowledge) wise when they comment ! The list goes on ,,,,,,,,,!

Personally & generally - I mostly comment about what I see that is good in any image, especially when it is to someone who may not be as equipped as some of the fortunate ones here, or as experienced - or both ?

I have some experience with basic imaging but Do know what it takes to get an image, and Im the kind of person that will say,,, "Great Result" just on the fact that someone has accomplished their image and Have posted it here !

We are all different _ We all try to get along & to understand each and everyone's situation !

I was once a bit apprehensive, different time, long ago, different place !
Learn different things in life, about people, their culture, upbringing, their work, hobbies & Forums alike.

I think there is no definitive answer to your question in reality, unless you ask each individual why they said what they said !
Think it is just one of those things that we just learn to accept it for what it is - unless your a counsellor or psychologist with a rather inquisitive sense to others inner thoughts and minds - which I might add, some peeps here and outside of here, are quite good at not me so much

[Atmos (Colin)]

As I am pretty sure that I am the culprit to which you are referring, potentially instigated by my recent wide field test image, I can appreciate where you're coming from

I tend to write what I am thinking which at times if I don't stop to think turns into a bit of a ramble (see some of my posts in the classifieds (LX200) ). I possibly come across as being more negative towards my images than I actually feel. Having only been in the imaging game for less than a year now, I know I still have a LOT to learn, mostly when it comes to image processing.

Take my newer current setup, every photo I have taken so far has suffered from tilt. After replacing one of the connections (between camera and CFW) I have now come to realise that I had both a combination of flexure and tilt. Now, down to just tilt and I think I may have figured out where that is coming from…. Compression ring on the focuser, cannot be sure until the rain goes away!

I mention this because it is an issue that I am currently on my way to combating. It causes less than perfect stars which in any particular image doesn’t bother me too much but I want it gone long term. As I mentioned before, I know I am still a novice when it comes to the processing side of things, stars are my weakness! Ultimately, I like criticism because it is the best way to learn on doing a better job in both future image and reprocesses of that one.

Take my recent Prawn (working on my millionth rendition now I recon!), Mike mentioned that the colour could do with some tweaking to get a nicer representation of all three colours (I do agree that it was a bit too green) and that it had been a bit over sharpened; the very last thing I did was a slight UnSharp Mask to take away the softness from noise reduction, I was in two minds to begin with as to whether it was a good idea. Had a number of mentions about the stars needing some more work (my current main processing struggle) but being a good image over all.

Originally Posted by Shiraz

you have a point, but when we spend 10+ hours looking at an image, trying to do the best possible processing job, we are all too well aware that we have made tradeoffs to get to the end product. I think that it is reasonable to point out known limitations in an image - it helps others to understand why an image looks like it does and may inform their future efforts in imaging and processing.

Originally Posted by gregbradley

Artistic critique is common on this site. Its mostly very helpful. Sometimes unpalatable, but this site is very polite. I have met many of the people who post here and they are very fine people. I often find people point out things I have overlooked. Sometimes its merely a difference of artistic opinion other times its an objective thing that others will agree on and you can see yourself once pointed out to you. I find sometimes my images evolve as a result of posting here from this process. At the end they are often better for it. It would be great to post an image in a near perfect state that cannot be improved on but that's rarely the case.

I do agree with you Todd (?) in that I am actually ecstatic in what I am able to get with my quite humble setup, scrutinising my own images and asking for feedback is just a way of improving them further. For instance, my entire rig is worth less than Greg’s Proline (I want one but alas buying a house is higher on my priority list right now) and because of this I know he has spent a proportionally larger amount of time getting his gear to the high standard that he wants. Following the thought lines of Ray and Greg, the more time, effort and money that has been put into the imaging rig the more that someone wants/expects to get out of it. Then there is all the time that goes into processing afterwards, we all want to get the best that we can from an image and the only way to improve it is to find its faults.

[Andy01 (Andy)]

Well this is an interesting thread!
I think there's more to self depreciation of one's own images than merely 'beating oneself to the hurt'.

I think it's because there are so many quality imagers on this forum that they inspire us to raise our standards and lift our game, possibly beyond our equipment's abilities to do so.

We see the percieved faults and shortcomings of our hard work wishing it was better, but accepting that we're still not quite there yet. Hence pointing out the obvious in the hope that someone may have a solution for next time.

I for one am deeply indebted to those who take the time to constructively criticise my images, and my imagemaking has improved markedly as a result.
Sure, sometimes critique can hurt, but knowing it's generally always made with best of intentions, one tends to suck it up, cop it on the chin, learn from it and move on!

For what it's worth, I generally try to critique an image using the Sh*t sandwich method. Ie: say something nice, then say what you really want to say, and finish on an encouraging positive note.

We do this when judging pro photo awards and the entrants are less inclined to be offended, indeed they usually appreciate the positive intent.

Anove all, we're a passionate lot. Dedicated to our craft/hobby and always wanting to do just thst little bit better each time!

[alpal]

Originally Posted by Andy01

Sure, sometimes critique can hurt, but knowing it's generally always made with best of intentions, one tends to suck it up, cop it on the chin, learn from it and move on!

Hi Andy,
Critique should not be a hurtful process -
people should be glad that someone is willing to make a constructive comment.
I have found many posted images that just needed that final tiny adjustment &
then they were as good as perfect.

cheers
Allan