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Old 14-09-2015, 08:21 AM
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TSX Accurate Polar Alignment... What am I doing wrong?

Taken me a few attempts to get used to new software, mount, telescope and camera. Taken on everything all at once haha

Was doing my first T-Point iteration last night (~60 stars) and did the Supermodel. It said that I had to move ~105 arc minutes East and ~30 arc minutes up. Started the accurate polar alignment routine, slew to Acrux, centred it and then pressed "Commit". It made this massive slew (relative) wanting me to lower the mount ~10 degrees and move ~15 degrees in azimuth. I started on it thinking it knew what it was doing, went this is stupid, pressed Done, parked the telescope and then slew back to Acrux l, re-centred Acrux.

Did another 60ish routine and got down to ~3 arc min below and 12 arc min East. Did the Accurate polar alignment routine again, over corrected the elevation (5 arc min overshoot) and had me move ~12 arc min West instead of East.
I found the above out after doing another 60ish model, had to move 5.5 arc min down and 24 arc min East. Just ended up guessing it and left it there.

What am I doing wrong?
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Old 14-09-2015, 01:42 PM
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Hi Colin,

Firstly congrats on setting everything up! And getting TPoint up and running and plate solving. That took me a while. The key being having the accurate image scale.

I take it you did the rough polar alignment first as in the manual? If not do that first to get you close.

So you do your 60 point tpoint run. You click on super model. It comes up with a better RMS (average of the errors). You click apply to apply the supermodel and watch the new RMS figure go lower.

The Polar Alignment report gives you 2 options. How much you need to adjust your RA and Dec or use accurate polar alignment.

So you clicked on accurate polar alignment. It verifies you have done the super model. Then it asks you to slew to a star in the north or the south and gives a little percentage of the existing location. As you move you will see that % appropriate change. I go for about 95%. I usually point to a low star in the north as its easier for my observatory.

Once you have a bright star centred at this location you click commit. The software now moves the mount so that same bright star needs to be adjusted manually to be brought back to the centre cross hairs of your image (you need to activate centre cross hairs so you can see that is exactly centre).

Now adjust the RA and Dec adjustment knobs taking new short exposure to see where it is until you have manually adjusted the mount so that same bright star above is now centred again in the cross hairs. Now click done and the Tpoint model takes into account the physical change you just did.

You should now be very well polar aligned. It should be good enough to image but if you want to take it further perhaps do a 200 or 300 point model and repeat and will get it that little bit closer. 60 point may not be enough to get a really accurate accurate polar alignment but if you watch the polar alignment report which updates as it adds more points it probably won't change much with more points but it does a bit.

I also use 2x2 binning when centring the bright star but I have used 1x1 for that little bit extra accuracy. I would not use 3x3 as it would be too sloppy.


I would do that on another night so you can get some imaging done.

The accurate polar alignment feature is a terrific improvement to the TPoint program.

Greg.
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Old 14-09-2015, 02:36 PM
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Thanks for that comprehensive explanation Greg. It sounds like I've done it all correctly, just been following the steps that the Accurate Polar Alignment routine gives. The problem that I ran into is that on the first iteration (slew away from the star) it was HUGE. It should have been out of my cameras FOV but not by too much, instead, T-Point moved approx. two Crux's away. Then the second iteration moved in the wrong direction along the azimuth axis (went from ~12 to 24 arc min away).

I think next clear night what I'll do is push Commit so that it slews away, press Done and THEN go and centre the star. It worked on the first iteration, started moving towards its suggested location and then went "screw that", pushed Done, parked the telescope (to contemplate my next move) and then slewed back to Acrux and centred from there which got me pretty close (~3-10 arc min on both axis, that was on 3x3 and not 100% accurate mind you, wasn't sure what was going to happen so I wasn't too stringent).

Thanks for the reply Greg, just wanted to double check that I hadn't gone an forgotten some silly little parameter that I NEEDED to fill out for it to work. I'll centre it after it thinks it has been done
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Old 14-09-2015, 03:00 PM
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Did you do the rough polar alignment first? It sounds like your PA is way off.

I would do a rough polar alignment first.

Then a 30 point t-point model and do the adjustments per the polar alignment report.

Then do a 100 point t-point model and do the accurate polar alignment. Then you will find the bright star only moves away from the cross hairs a small amount and you bring it back, centre it manually adjusting the mount and you should be very close now.

You could finish off with a 200 or 300 point model and then another accurate polar alignment and it should be another smallish adjustment and you will be really accurate.

If you activate tracking corrections in Protrack you may find it will improve star roundness in your autoguided images.

I think you are jumping too quickly ahead on the polar alignment process. Its best done with several iterations.Not one.

Greg.
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Old 14-09-2015, 04:15 PM
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Both the Rough Polar Alignment and ProTrack are for SB mounts only I believe. The Rough Polar Alignment uses its homing sensors, something that the EQ6 doesn't have

What really threw me was that on my second iteration it didn't move far (was only ~3 arc min down and ~12 arc min East). When I went to move my mount East I found that TSX had moved in the opposite direction that I thought it should have. At first I thought I must have just read it wrong but when I did my third run I found that I was in fact ~24 arc min too far too the West (needed to go East), so it moved the correct distance but in the wrong direction from what I can tell!

Autoguiding is my next step to figure out, never done it before. Tried doing it in MaxIm DL a couple of times when connected to TSX but it never seems to be sending the "move" signal for calibration. I THINK I need to have it as "Telescope" and not connected directly to the ASCOM TheSkyX thing. More testing
Tried using TheSkyX to auto guide, just kept spitting out errors during calibration. I probably haven't filled out all of the information for it though, I don't think I have ever put my guider scope information and stuff in so that could be why.
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Old 14-09-2015, 04:21 PM
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or you could drift align
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Old 14-09-2015, 07:32 PM
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I don't know the ins and outs of TSX when not using a Bisque mount. But I think the accurate PA is going to work quite well when you are already pretty close to good PA. If the star moves too far it will be out of the camera FOV and I'm unsure how you could go about re-centering it. When I've used APA the star move was well within the FOV.

The other issue is how accurate your mount adjusters are? Even on the Bisque mounts they are not perfect, especially in MA. ME is pretty good.

You might want to try using the jog control in TSX and see if you can measure how accurately your mount responds to arc-sec moves. You might be dealing with some backlash which would make the jog control difficult to use for PA. But, you might try something I used to do to get extremely accurate adjustment in ME. You do the supermodel and see what it says for ME. Perhaps it say lower your mount by 1 arc-min. What I've done is slew to any star on the meridian and center it. Then use the jog control to slew 1 arc-min higher. Then lower the mount until the original star is re-centered. You have lowered the mount exactly 1 arc-min! The same technique can be used for MA but is much more tricky because the move is by the cosine of the altitude. The best position is probably pointing east or west.

Personally I think you will find T-Point is going to give you very accurate pointing. But, it may prove less satisfying for PA given your non-Paramount. If I were you I would use PEMpro to drift align. Once you are satisfied with PA then run your model and ignore the polar alignment report. You will get a very good result. (Extremely accurate PA is a compromise at best anyway so there is nothing wrong with a drift alignment.) Also, realize that even if you are not permanently setup you can reuse the model by just recalibrating into the large model (maybe only 8-10 points are necessary). You just need to mount your equipment as close as you can from night to night.

Peter
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Old 15-09-2015, 11:16 AM
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Colin
You really appear to be dressing up an "Intermediate" mount with a lot of software/features that is/are not necessary.
EQMOD, CDC and PhD guiding along with SGPro is all you need to be fully functional for imaging and finding your way around the sky.
Some of the programs you are using are crippled by their origins ie why do you need a Tpoint model on temporary setup? Tried it with The Sky and it was a waste of time if you are polar aligned and have plate solving. All the programs I mentioned are well supported and free (except for SGP).

Anyway that's just my 2 cents but enjoy the ins and outs of the system you are trying to setup with the EQ6.
Allan
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Old 15-09-2015, 12:38 PM
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I use Sky X and Tpoint with an AP mount and it works just fine no different really to a Paramount mount.

If I were doing a temporary setup I might consider using PemPro polar alignment wizard as it works in real time and is also very accurate and fairly fast. If you make an error you can see it in real time worsening results and you go the other way. Kind of simple. Its also very bug free mature software. I think it even tests for backlash.

Perhaps your mount as has some backlash as Peter pointed out and that is throwing you a problem (check these other items below first though).

The advantage though of the Sky X and Tpoint is if you get past the learning curve I think you could be polar aligned very accurately quite fast.

If you use a digital inclinometer (cheap from ebay) and use that to set your angle of the mount (you will now be very close) and then set the mount to approximately due south you again will be quite close.

Now do a 15 point model and do the adjustments then another and then maybe a 60 point model and the accurate polar aligment routine and you are done. Perhaps only 40 minutes.

Pempro polar alignment wizard may only take 30 minutes. There is a Polar Align Max but I haven't used it.

Autoguiding in Sky X. What guide camera are you using? Did you connect to it using the autoguider tab?

The guide camera ideally is square to the mount so make sure its not at a weird angle. Sky X will compensate if it is but its better for it to be square, its easy enough.

Autoguider settings: This will depend on your mount and seeing to some degree but lets start with 3 second guide exposures, 2x2 binning, set it to relays (you need an autoguiding cable to go from the camera to the mount)
I use pulse but I am using an AP mount. I am not sure if that works on other mounts.It may and you don't need an autoguiding cable so its convenient. Min move .01 maximum move .5.

Backlash settings. Your mount may have backlash, mine don't so you may be best to ask others what they set backlash to for EQ6.

Guide stars. Make sure your guide camera is well focused. The idea it does not matter if the star is a bit out of focus is false.

Pick a medium bright star that looks nice and sharp and has no double star and no brighter star nearby that the software could confuse as the guide star. You can also use auto select.

Callibration. Take a 5 second exposure at 2x2 binning. Pick a medium bright star that is not a double star. Click on the framing icon above the photo window. Drag it across the star to form a reasonable sized box (not too small and not so large it include other bright stars which can throw off the calibration as it simply picks the brightest star so if another bright star moves into the frame it will erroneously pick that instead of your guide star).

Set time for calibration. About 5 seconds is about right perhaps a tad more. Too much and it will move the star out of the frame. Too little and it may not move enough for a good measurement.

Exposure time for the guide camera: This varies with mounts. A poor mount may need shorter exposure times to keep up with the errors. A better one takes longer exposures. I have run different exposure lengths with different mounts from 1 second all the way t0 10 seconds.

Also autoguiding will not work well if polar alignment is off by too much. So the first thing if autoguiding is not giving good results is to try another guide star (it can make a massive difference) if still no go then tweak polar alignment.

There is a fantastic autoguiding interview from one of the software guys who works on PHD2. Watch that and you'll get a fabulous education on autoguiding. Its the best resource I have seen on autoguiding. PHD2 gives superior autoguiding to Sky X and its free.

Autoguiding is a bit of a black art so feel free to ask questions.

It sounds like you don' have your guide camera attached to your mount via an autoguiding cable. If so make sure its connected and you can take images. If you are then make sure the autoguiding method (autoguider tab/ setup/there is menu with the different methods of autoguiding direct guide (Paramount mounts only) pulse (the one I use but depends on your mount?) relays (this requires an autoguiding cable and is the common one used).

Also I use auto darks on my autoguider. Hot pixels on noisy guide cameras can be confused for the guide star and will make callibration fail and guiding fail at times.

Feel free to ask more questions.

Greg.
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Old 15-09-2015, 01:04 PM
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I've never tried this approach but it seems very complicated for what you are trying to achieve - polar alignment and accurate pointing with a temporary setup of an EQ6.

PHD2 has an excellent drift alignment wizard that achieves very accurate alignment quite quickly and it is free. It will probably take you 15 minutes to read the instructions and 30 minutes to achieve alignment the first time out. The most complicated bit is adjusting the EQ6 altitude as the mechanism doesn't offer very fine control and tends to overshoot. I purchased Pempro for drift alignment but actually prefer PHD2 as it is far easier to use.

For pointing accuracy there are various free platesolving solutions that achieve excellent results with almost no setup once the image scale is entered. I no longer bother creating a 2/3 star pointing model for my EQ6 - just slew to approximate location, plate solve and one more slew and the object is centred on the CCD.

Creating a Tpoint model with 10's/100's of stars for a temporary setup with a mass produced mount seems like overkill. In my trade we'd call that "polishing a turd".

Just my thoughts.
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Old 15-09-2015, 02:48 PM
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The only thing I don't entirely agree with the other Peter (hope you don't mind!) is that if you make a quite large model with T-Point it can easily be used from night to night if the equipment setup remains the same. And, T-Point will work very well after a drift align with just a small number of recalibration points. I think using T-Point for polar alignment will be very difficult on a mount that doesn't have accurate adjusters.

Peter
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Old 15-09-2015, 11:03 PM
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Thank you everyone for your input. Going to have another read through it all and properly process it when I am not dog tired!

In the interim however, I did start off with using EQAlign as a way of doing the drift alignments. Free software and it does work really well, doesn't have the "real time" feature that PemPro does but it works well all the same. I have seriously considered purchasing PemPro and may still do it in the future, even if just as a way of getting some damn good PEC curves

I do agree with the sentiment that I am probably going a little over the top for a lowly EQ6 Pro It doesn't have the most accurate encoders, many seem to suffer with backlash (although I haven't really noticed any yet with my limited usage). Not say it's not there, just haven't pushed it far yet.

There are a couple of reason I did choose to go down the path of TSX over PemPro for alignments though. Using TPoint takes an all sky model, takes refraction out of the equation. For a temporary setup it is debatable as to whether the difference is worth the effort, I do agree with that. For what I am planning on doing, I do need pointing accuracy though. When I get everything up and running I plan to start doing astrometric studies on a few dozen globular clusters over several months. I have an interest in RR Lyrae stars and want to do some research into the variability of variable stars (they have a ~40 day cycle). This involves slewing from one cluster to another, taking one image and then moving on. Accurate pointing makes my life much easier to say the least.

I am also planning on having a semi-permanent setup both at my house in Melbourne and my dark site in Heathcote. When they get established, having strong TPoint models already done means I'll only have to do a resync to them, 15 minutes and I am up and running

Right now my mission is to work on one aspect at a time. First it is getting to know TSX, then auto guiding, then sequencing. Sequencing will probably be done through SGP running with TSX for mount control. As much as I love MaxIm, I haven't sat down to learn Visual Basic to write sequencing scripts for it yet. Maybe in the future!

I know that within about 40 minutes from power up I should be able to be pretty accurately polar aligned (enough for me to be happy with a temp setup), have a 60-100 TPoint model and be ready to go. I have a digital level which gets me quite easily to within half a degree and I am looking at making a mount attachment for my compass to get me within a degree from cold setup.
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Old 16-09-2015, 07:10 AM
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Colin,

I'm sure you know this but as long as T-Point knows where it is at you can have pretty sucky polar alignment together with extremely accurate pointing. If your exposures are going to be short pointing can take priority.

Peter
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Old 16-09-2015, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atmos View Post
...
In the interim however, I did start off with using EQAlign as a way of doing the drift alignments. Free software and it does work really well, doesn't have the "real time" feature that PemPro does but it works well all the same. I have seriously considered purchasing PemPro and may still do it in the future, even if just as a way of getting some damn good PEC curves
I've tried and used EQAlign a while ago. OpenPHD/PHD2 is also free, and it's drift align tool is realtime. It's also much easier and quicker than EQAlign in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atmos View Post
I do agree with the sentiment that I am probably going a little over the top for a lowly EQ6 Pro It doesn't have the most accurate encoders, many seem to suffer with backlash (although I haven't really noticed any yet with my limited usage). Not say it's not there, just haven't pushed it far yet.
Accuracy of encoders and backlash has nothing really to do with it. As per my comment to Peter below, if you have accurate polar alignment, everything else falls into place and is easier - pointing, guiding etc. You can't have pinpoint stars without accurate polar alignment unless your exposure times are unrealistically short for the sort of gear I understand you're using.

PHD2 (free) has a very simple and quick drift align tool for accurate polar alignment. You'll be polar aligned in minutes.

Astrotortilla (free), Elbrus (free), PlateSolve2 (free), Astronomy.net local server (free) are all plate solving tools that will solve an image taken in any part of the sky and sync your mount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atmos View Post

There are a couple of reason I did choose to go down the path of TSX over PemPro for alignments though. Using TPoint takes an all sky model, takes refraction out of the equation. For a temporary setup it is debatable as to whether the difference is worth the effort, I do agree with that. For what I am planning on doing, I do need pointing accuracy though. When I get everything up and running I plan to start doing astrometric studies on a few dozen globular clusters over several months. I have an interest in RR Lyrae stars and want to do some research into the variability of variable stars (they have a ~40 day cycle). This involves slewing from one cluster to another, taking one image and then moving on. Accurate pointing makes my life much easier to say the least.

I am also planning on having a semi-permanent setup both at my house in Melbourne and my dark site in Heathcote. When they get established, having strong TPoint models already done means I'll only have to do a resync to them, 15 minutes and I am up and running

Right now my mission is to work on one aspect at a time. First it is getting to know TSX, then auto guiding, then sequencing. Sequencing will probably be done through SGP running with TSX for mount control. As much as I love MaxIm, I haven't sat down to learn Visual Basic to write sequencing scripts for it yet. Maybe in the future!
If you're talking about using SGP, all of my comments above are even more relevant, as they all work seamlessly with SGP. You tell it you want to go to a target, it will slew there, automatically take an image, plate solve it, if you're not bang on it will adjust and autoslew to target, solve again just to check, and off you go. Seamless, simple, quick, accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atmos View Post

I know that within about 40 minutes from power up I should be able to be pretty accurately polar aligned (enough for me to be happy with a temp setup), have a 60-100 TPoint model and be ready to go. I have a digital level which gets me quite easily to within half a degree and I am looking at making a mount attachment for my compass to get me within a degree from cold setup.
Forget the TPoint model and you can be ready to go in less than half that time, without losing any accuracy as per comment above

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRejto View Post
Colin,

I'm sure you know this but as long as T-Point knows where it is at you can have pretty sucky polar alignment together with extremely accurate pointing. If your exposures are going to be short pointing can take priority.

Peter
Surely for imaging an accurate polar alignment should be priority number one? If that's bang on, everything else falls into place - your pointing is more accurate, your guiding is easier, you don't get field rotation etc.
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Old 16-09-2015, 10:51 AM
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yep for a temporary setup that's probably not worth it.

I can do 30 min guided subs with just the handset synscan polar alignment routine and PHD2 FL at 1200mm.

It probably takes 4-5 PA routine iterations to achieve this... depending how far off PA is to begin with, so not too long at all.
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Old 16-09-2015, 12:55 PM
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+1 for PEMPro. It makes it so easy.

Will see if PHD2 supports an STL-11000M and give that a go, too.

H
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Old 16-09-2015, 03:30 PM
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Ive used pempro, EQalign, Tpoint, WCS by Wolfgang Ruthner and helped Andreas set up Alignmaster for the Southern Hemisphere.
PhD2 knocks all of these into a cocked hat. I used it for the first time at Astrofest on the recommendation of a few people whose opinions I respect.

With no instructions, I was polar aligned in 10 min top and it stayed that way for the 10 days with perfect guiding. I wont be using anything else.
Allan
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Old 16-09-2015, 06:34 PM
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You're getting some good advice here. I haven't used the PHD2 drift align tool but the guiding graph does show a trendline just like the Pempro one does.

Just as a point though, I have used Pempro polar alignment wizard a few times (especially when TPoint was having trouble with plate solving etc, it doesn't like some cameras like the SX Trius694 for example).

Tpoint polar alignments using the accurate polar alignment button has always been more accurate and gave better guiding.

Additionally, not really relevant for a temp setup, but if you have a decent Tpoint model you can activate tracking corrections using Protrack and you can find sometimes it makes the difference between slightly eggy stars and round ones. It corrects for the slow flexes and autoguiding corrects for the PE errors.

Greg
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Old 16-09-2015, 08:08 PM
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There is a LOT of information for me contemplate here, thanks everyone for your input. Just finished reading the PHD2 manual, the Drift Align tool looks pretty good, will have to give that a go on the next clear night.

Should probably go and reread this thread again
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Old 16-09-2015, 08:53 PM
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I use the PHD2 drift align tool exclusively as well and have found it pretty easy to use. I do take a bit longer than others here to get aligned though. I find the charts will follow a trend for a while and then change direction, so you aren't entirely sure whether you've got it spot on or not. Not sure why this happens. Wind perhaps?
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