Saturn Once Our Sun?

[Astrophe (John)]

There are many ideas floating around out there, about the planet Saturn. Claims that Saturn was once our Sun, or that the Earth was at one time a satellite of Saturn.



The name, Immanuel Velikovsky is often quoted in connection with these ideas. Here is a link which might be of some assistance to those who are interested in these matters. Also, is there any veracity in the idea that Mars was once a satellite of the (now exploded) planet, Phaeton?


https://www.velikovsky.info/saturn-theory/

[glend (Glen)]

Haha, this sounds like something they would jump all over in the USA, it even has a Russian involved. Didn't Velikovsky invent the voting machine?

[julianh72 (Julian)]

I heard he worked in a Russian biological warfare laboratory, working on weaponising trans-species viruses.

And not many people know that some of the most important patents over 5G technology are registered to an I. Velikovsky. Coincidence? I think not!

[The Mekon (John Briggs)]

Velikovsky's ideas have been around for years. A total nutter.

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by julianh72

I heard he worked in a Russian biological warfare laboratory, working on weaponising trans-species viruses.

And not many people know that some of the most important patents over 5G technology are registered to an I. Velikovsky. Coincidence? I think not!

The Velikovsky I was referring to died in 1979, so the 5G allegation is somewhat strained.


Here is his bio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

[xelasnave]

Book sales promotion of wild speculation ... it's all about the author and precious little science...who cares.?
Alex

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

The Velikovsky I was referring to died in 1979, so the 5G allegation is somewhat strained.

I thought it would be self-evident that my comments were sarcastic - Velikovsky's publications fall into the same pseudo-science swill-bucket as Covid and 5G conspiracy theories, etc.

For the record, and without any sarcasm: Velikovsky's "theories" weren't taken seriously when he was alive - and they haven't gained any credibility since. (I use quotes for "theories" because Velikovsky's publications do not meet the basic criteria required to be considered to be a scientific theory.)

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by julianh72

I thought it would be self-evident that my comments were sarcastic - Velikovsky's publications fall into the same pseudo-science swill-bucket as Covid and 5G conspiracy theories, etc.

For the record, and without any sarcasm: Velikovsky's "theories" weren't taken seriously when he was alive - and they haven't gained any credibility since. (I use quotes for "theories" because Velikovsky's publications do not meet the basic criteria required to be considered to be a scientific theory.)

Velikovsky might be a fairly common Russian name, so no, your sarcasm was not self-evident.


Science is just another belief system, like all the rest of them over the centuries. It has its own proofs, which are sufficient for its adherents/followers, just like all belief systems have had over time. Science is no different from any of them.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by astrophe

.... Science is no different from any of them.

WHAT???
Science is NOT belief system.
It is based on facts, that can be verified (or debunked) by anyone, anywhere and anytime, and that makes all the difference.
BTW, Velikovsky is common russian family name, but there is only one Velikovsky when astronomy and astrophysics is concerned.. and yes, he is notorious in astro community.

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

Science is no different from any of them.

Science is VERY different to "belief systems".

In one sense, Science starts off in the same way as most religions and "creation mythology" - with an observation, such as the stars in the sky at night, the movement of the Sun, Moon and planets across the state, etc. A theory is developed to explain the observation; Science gives us the theory of gravity; religion and creation mythology give us supernatural beings.

But that is where the similarity ends.

Religion and creation mythology purport to tell us the whole truth, which must be accepted without question.

Science makes predictions, and raises new questions which must be answered before any new theory becomes accepted as the new norm. Crucially, the one thing that Science truly "knows" is that the current theory is only as good as the last prediction and conforming observation; as soon as a repeatable verifiable observation is made which contradicts the theory, it will be modified or discarded in favour of a better theory.

Velikovsky's work falls into the same class as creation mythology and fairy tales - stories which may appear to explain some observed phenomenon, but do not conform with ALL relevant phenomena, and make no useful predictions against which they can be tested.

[xelasnave]

The call that science is a belief system is a common rant from folk who have no idea about the philosophy of science but more particularly have some unsupported ideas that they seek to elevate to a higher level than they can ever command by saying things like science is a belief system..you know right there they ain't got nothing or more correctly you are about to hear about some unsupported rat bag idea, which they happily call a theory which underlines their total lack of any involvement with scientific method thinking that "theory" is a neat idea that came to them in the bath ..in total ignorance of the meaning of the word in science...they don't realise you could replace the word theory with..the words..a well evidenced established fact that makes testable predictions and is so reliable that you could bet the house..."theory" is not a casual idea...and yet their use of the word tells you right away where they are coming from..heck when I ranted about push gravity and generally ignorant I still knew what theory meant and always referred to my push gravity rants as mere ideas to save myself from occupying the same region as true crackpots...I never said I had a theory...if someone says they have a theory ask where their paper was published.

I ask why the original op..there is nothing about Saturn etc and it seems a promotion to sell books of a dead author..I ask does the original poster have an interest in the "literary estate" of the deceased author or is he what we could call a cult member ready to remind us that one idea is as good as any other and science is just another belief system..it's not and saying it is still does not make nonsense any more than nonsense.
The ideas of the author were dead perhaps well before the author took his last breath.
I suggest that our dead author was never a scientist in public but used his knowledge to write controversial books that appeal to the non mainstream and annoy the mainstream to bring them into his readership to critise ..he knew what he was doing..you could not receive the education he did and write various papers and remain ignorant of the requirements of science...a good book seller...and now his estate will continue the business by dragging out unsold stuff and doing what book sellers do..nothing wrong with that unless you see something more than what is really going on...
Alex

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

....

Science is just another belief system, like all the rest of them over the centuries.... .

You a nutter? or just pulling people's chains?

But if you think Newton simply was making up "belief systems" there are some excellent coastal cliffs south of Cape Solander (near Botany Bay)

You can test alternative beliefs about how gravity works there

[Astrophe (John)]

My, there are some very fragile souls here, aren't there.


Science is just another belief system and like all belief systems, it has its own proofs and verities which are sufficient for those who are its adherents. Other belief systems have had similar proofs and certainties for those who were/are believers.


Just remember, there isn't anything to argue over, because we live in a virtual reality, anyway, so why argue?

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

My, there are some very fragile souls here, aren't there.


Science is just another belief system and like all belief systems, it has its own proofs and verities which are sufficient for those who are its adherents. Other belief systems have had similar proofs and certainties for those who were/are believers.


Just remember, there isn't anything to argue over, because we live in a virtual reality, anyway, so why argue?

Hi John

Fragile souls? Perhaps you could establish the existence of a soul or at least define it so we can determine the depth of your observation.

I expect that for you science may be the enemy if you are prepared to think of it as just another belief system. Your proclamation ignores the philosophy of science which has at it's heart the scientific method..Using the scientific method really places the matter being dealt with in the box of fact. When you say "other belief systems have had similar proofs and certainties for those who were / are believers" tells me everything about your beliefs and how you no doubt believe science is your enemy. Look I don't care what you think or frankly what you say or how others will judge you as being uninformed but the thing you seem to be determined to ignore is scientific method, I expect because you are ignorant of the meaning for if you understood you would perhaps avoid making very silly statements suggesting science is a mere belief system. You would benefit from researching the philosophy of science and realise your words really don't make sense.

Science is in no way like a belief system..belief systems operate upon gut feeling and dogma...that's why they are called belief systems..they usually have nothing by way of fact in the mix..

Anyways let's leave on a humorous note which I expect was your attempt with your final sentence but please treat yourself to some education and Google "Philosophy of Science" ..read it read it again...then ask yourself "How can science ever be called a belief system given what I have now learnt".

In any event I did ask but please tell me this...what was your motivation with your opening post? You set it up leading folk to believe it had something to do with Saturn but you do nothing other than promote a dead non mainstream author...are you a relative, a cult member or in charge of his "literary estate" and book sales.

Please say something that paints you other than a foolish troll...
Alex

[bojan]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

..... we live in a virtual reality, anyway, so why argue?

Matrix v50 .

[Peter Ward]

OK . Nutter it is then....

[Astrophe (John)]

xelasnave


A soul is (at least in this context) merely an expression....I'm not necessarily postulating the existence of a spiritual dimension to the human makeup...that would be a separate discussion.


Your much vaunted science is simply made up of the latest theories which have currency at this moment in time. It bears no relationship to what is really out there. To find out about that, you would need to put your crass materialism aside and look within yourself....the Universe is within.


P.S. Sorry, I don't know how to quote a members name (to avoid having to quote a long post), when replying.

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

OK . Nutter it is then....

I don't regard myself as a nutter, but you are of course entitled to your opinion.

[Atmos (Colin)]

My vote is for Jupiter, it’s much closer to being a Brown Dwarf than Saturn. If Saturn didn’t have its rings it wouldn’t be cared about. As the Goddess Beyoncè herself said “ Cause if you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it”.

[Outcast (Carlton)]

Originally Posted by Atmos

My vote is for Jupiter, it’s much closer to being a Brown Dwarf than Saturn. If Saturn didn’t have its rings it wouldn’t be cared about. As the Goddess Beyoncè herself said “ Cause if you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it”.

Nah, it'd have to be Uranus... I mean, some think the sun shines out of theirs....