Go Back   IceInSpace > Equipment > ATM and DIY Projects

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 02-02-2019, 03:13 PM
sil's Avatar
sil (Steve)
Not even a speck of dust

sil is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1,259
Blackest paint on kickstarter

This has NOTHING to do with me.

Just noticed a kickstarter project for some ďblackest blackĒ paint. Just though it might be of interest to the DIYers here to look at. No idea if itíll meet its claim or reach its target (my own funding for treatment isnt likely with the support Iíve had so no expert on fundraising). Also no idea if this will be of any use in astro projects or not

Feel free to delete this post if you donít think its appropriate.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-02-2019, 05:04 PM
gb44 (Glenn)
Registered User

gb44 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Gold Coast
Posts: 107
This likely would be better than blackboard black for interiors of reflectors.

GlennB
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-02-2019, 06:57 PM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,508
Same mob that developed their Black 2.0. A few fellows here have the 2.0 . Only thing is it isn't water resistant, so you don't want dew to form on the 2.0 . I couldn't see any specs on the 3.0 in relation to water resistance. These paints are normally used on indoors installations, paintings, sculptures, not intened to be hung outdoors.

If your scope is a sealed unit, Mak, SCT, frac, the 2.0 and 3.0 sound promising. I still haven't heard back from people who have used the 2.0 in the field. Would make for an interesting comparison two exact same scopes, one standard out of the factory the other treated with 2.0, side by side and a drag race between the two, visual and photographic.

Alex.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 25-02-2019, 11:00 AM
sil's Avatar
sil (Steve)
Not even a speck of dust

sil is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1,259
I'll be using it initially for shade hoods to reduce reflected glare from neighbourhood lights etc. especially my leica compact with pop-open lens cover where it gets a contact from rim of lens and flicks open/clocsed, so hardwearingness can see if it flakes off easily or very resistant. Also will be handy for backdrop for micro/macrophotography too. Will have to test if clear spray coats make much difference in the blackness, i assume yes, but a clear coat may be good to protect the coat better. will be fun to play. Wonder if I should carefully paint a "hole" on the ground and set up a wildlife cam to watch people react to it .
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 25-02-2019, 11:05 AM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,508
Steve, apply a coat of clear over the black and you will kill its non-reflectivity.

Carefully consider this. This Black 3.0 and 2.0 are matte paints. Any clear varnish you put over these and the black will change to gloss.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 26-02-2019, 04:28 PM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,697
I have a bottle of Black 2 - once applied it is very fragile stuff - it doesn’t tolerate being handled or being in contact with anything. It loses its matte surface very easily (light finger touch) or flakes off.

Only practical use on Astro gear is inside a closed OTA like a refractor, mak or SCT.

Forget applying anything over the top - firstly that produces a satin surface and secondly the adhesion to whateve is underneath is still limited by the black paint, ie it will rub or chip off.

If you need a more durable surface consider the various flocking materials, carbide sandpaper, or velvet.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 26-02-2019, 04:45 PM
leon's Avatar
leon
Registered User

leon is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: ballarat
Posts: 10,677
Surly black is black just go to a good paint place and buy black paint.

I painted the inside of my 200mm reflector tube in Matt black paint 40 years ago and it is still looking good,

Leon
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 26-02-2019, 07:58 PM
Ukastronomer's Avatar
Ukastronomer (Jeremy)
Registered User

Ukastronomer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Llandysul, WALES, UK
Posts: 707
It is like wasing powder, how many Worlds blackest paints will there be

https://www.sciencealert.com/this-ob...reaking-us-out

Almost blackest even ?????

https://www.atlasobscura.com/unique-...blackest-paint
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26-02-2019, 08:29 PM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,697
Leon this stuff is something else - in most lighting the object sort of vanishes unless you look closely. You can google it yourself, the images are not deceptive.

At some point I’m going to apply it to the inside of the MK91 especially the bits that matter most. Contrary to what many would guess, the inside of the OTA is not the most important place.

One night I pointed the scope at the moon and then took a look inside the top of the OTA to see what areas were most illuminated by scattered light - it was quite edifying. In my case the secondary mirror surround, and the outside of the top of the central baffle tube are most affected; the inside of the OTA not so much as being a Russian mak the tube has baffle rings whereas Celstron/Meades do not.

This would be quite an instructive thing for others to try, too, if you are interested in maximising the background contrast at the eyepiece.

For example in a Newtonian the diagonal assembly and spider arms are critical, as is the are of the OTA immediately opposite the eyepiece which defines the black background behind the diagonal mirror.

Last edited by Wavytone; 26-02-2019 at 09:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 27-04-2019, 01:49 AM
sil's Avatar
sil (Steve)
Not even a speck of dust

sil is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1,259
In case anyone is interested I got my Black 3.0 paint a week or so ago. As for blackest black, not really. But its an artists paint and i dont have a canvas to try it on. It is black though and yes matte, so it looks a bit like chalkboard. Does absorb light fairly well but the example photos are nothing like what it looks like for me. It is very black when in shade but in direct line of site of primary lightsource the shape painted on is very obvious.

I didn’t buy it for astro though, i have some art uses where it will help and some camera uses I’ve tried. My walking stick is black anodised aluminium and theres a patch where my regular use has gently worn through to the metal underneath. I coated around the area with the black paint and its obviously not as deep a black as the anodised. Its been there just over a week so its getting worn too now. I applied directly to the anodised and raw aluminium, no primer or clear coat. And its started to wear off. Its not chipping which many paints would. I’ve also put it on a camera i use and its on parts subject to movement rubbing with other parts and its not leaving flakes or dust i can find. Ive also put it on the inside of lens hoods.

As for their definition of black, I’d say it refers to the amount of reflected light, probably testing the strength of a laser pointer on various paints. As a wet paint its glossy and yes very very black. So my initial impression at this point is its safe and useful for internal surfaces to reduce risk of stray light interfering with a view in an eye piece or image contrast in an image. My camera I painted is a Leica, not exactly garbage but my confidence at using the paint on it was high enough to do so. I’m not saying its awesome or better than other solutions or perfect for Your purposes just if you think it is something you want for a project I can recommend giving it a try. It has yet to show any problems for me, the biggest concern with paints is the chipping and flakes getting into unwanted areas. So far I’m confident enough it wont flake. Rubbing will wear it off but not as flakes or free dust, likewise if i wet it but still takes rubbing to remove and doesnt appear to dissolve fast and blacken a tissue on its own without rubbing to help it along.

A pleasant surprise was how flat physically the paint seems to end up once dry. I applied by brush without particular care or evenness on some large flat areas and once dry it looked evenly painted as a spray would do. So at the very least if you want a flat matte black finish without my fuss it works a treat. Water based so brush cleanup is dead easy too.

Also got some glow in the dark powder from them too which is also good, mixed some up with some model paint and a satin coat, mixed in smoothly and i’m going to have to be annoying to the products and mix the “best glow powder” with the “blackest black paint” and create some form of space time anomally
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 27-04-2019, 08:51 AM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,508
Steve,

Thanks for sharing your invaluable experience with this stuff.

As suggested, the most obvious application of Black 3.0 & 2.0 is tje i side of an OTA. Unlike your experience with the walking stick, the i side of an OTA is not readily handled, nor typically bare metal.

The greatest challenge is to find the best undercoat for it - will it play nice with an existing black painted tube interior? And if the OTA is an open one, how will it deal with dew? And sometimes our gear can get warm (inside a var pr a tin shed), and then get very cold, so will this paint maintain its adhesion to the stuff it's been painted onto?

These two Black paints are designed for artistic purposes. They are not expressly formulated for astro applications. Their website desvribes the formulation requirements, and being waterproof or able to adhere to different painted surfaces are not priorities. To satisfy these as well would very likely fundamentally alter the "blackness" due to the change in binders.

Paint technology is fascinating stuff! In the same way oils-ain't-oils, paints-ain't-paints. It means the right tool for the job.

So, who's brave enough to guinea pig a scope?...

Alex.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-05-2019, 12:51 PM
sil's Avatar
sil (Steve)
Not even a speck of dust

sil is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mental4astro View Post
So, who's brave enough to guinea pig a scope?...
I'll volunteer to finder paint the inside of a suitably wide OTA if someone wants to donate. lol

I agree though having used this paint practically I would trust it to the inside of a diy ota and say inside a diagonal. I've been using it deliberately onto things like anodosed and bare aluminium, bare plastic etc without primer just to give it the worst chance of sticking. I dont have it on anything subject to rain to see about water resistance.

It may be something Merlin could experiement with spectroscopy to see if its interesting in its absorption properties. May indicate if it'd be good for heat absorbing applications like solar water heater or or solar convection heater tubes. I'm not really set up to do a bunch of testing along those lines. But its for art and what they really mean by Black I dont know, blackest art I know are those cheesy painting on black velvet from the 70's so maybe if someone has one to throw away I could paint half and see if it Blacker.

I did experiment with the Black V3.0 Paint and the Glowiest glow powder Mixed up in a small pot the glow powder doesnt disolve away into the paint but neither did the paint go an ugly colour, still looks black in the pot and when painted but hit it with a uv torch and the glow shows up. For X-files fans do you recall the episode of the bugs that came from a growth ring in an old tree that was illegally cut down and they would swarm and cocoon people, they formed a greasy film over everything and were dormant in the light but glowed in the shadows. The effect they used to show the glowing effect in the dark is what this mixture does. Its damn weird and odd to look at, sort of even speckly effect rather than a smooth even glow. No idea what if anything I'll use it for. Could be useful for maybe aircraft cockpit instrumentation, dial backgrounds etc then with a small uv led in your display case itd show up that night vision style glow. I also added some to a pot of blue and another of satin clear. Same deal with those, weird glowy effect but it doesnt effect the colour of the host paint except the clear is a little flegmy looking in the pot.. Got some fantasy gaming figurines I painted with an electric blue scheme so I added to a blue pot to add on and I'll like to have display lighting thats nice white but with some uv in there to stimulate this stuff. The clear goes on untinted clear but adds the glow effect too so i could have stuck with that on my figures instead of devoting a blue pot specifically. I guess I should use the glowblack on black parts of gear for ownership, paint whatever I want then coat whole surface with clear.


I did notice a recent kickstarter campaign that seems to be a drop of this paint (or similar) sandwiched between two pieces of glass as a "black hole" for you to gaze into and meditate on. Dont have square glass plates to try this on. I was really hoping to use this stuff to make a black backdrop to a 3d scanner setup or to use in my lightbox. Does say not to drink the stuff, so there goes my idea of dressing up as an octopus and sitting in a pool drinking the water
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-05-2019, 04:05 PM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,697
Simple - donít bother - use what you can buy from Bunnings - itís better. Iíve already tried applying Black 2 on an existing piece that was previously painted with some ordinary matte black from Bunnings. When you see the two side by side the comparison is dead easy - no guessing. It also suggests the photos used to promote this stuff are to some extent not genuine and have been photoshopped. Should have realised its a bit of a con considering the amount of hype generated on this topic.

1. In sunlight black 2 looks somewhat grey and the ordinary stuff from Bunnings was distinctly blacker.

2. At glancing angles (ie close to parallel to the surface) it is no blacker than the ordinary stuff.

3. It is some sort of acrylic paint and will survive light touches etc so if you really want you could use it, but ordinary paint from Bunnings was blacker.

4. It is really, really thick goo and goes on really thick too.

5. Washing up afterwards is very very messy - black droplets will go everywhere. It reminds me of polishing rouge - which is equally messy.

Iíll give black 3 a go but I donít expect it to be much better.

The analogy with rouge raises another thought - apply a layer of matte black paint and while wet blow black rouge onto it. Messy job to do, but Iím fairly sure significantly blacker.

Last edited by Wavytone; 06-05-2019 at 05:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 14-05-2019, 12:09 PM
sil's Avatar
sil (Steve)
Not even a speck of dust

sil is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canberra
Posts: 1,259
I agree Nick, not worth getting just for astro use, maybe its blackest on a canvas but I dont paint. I backed on a whim with low expectations and will use as I need for some stuff.

Not sure photos were photoshopped as in some diffuse light situations it sort of vanishes sometimes so I guess those shots were staged for optimal effect. I suspect much from bunnings would be better but not going to be testing laser brightness and reflection brightness etc.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 15-05-2019, 03:03 PM
gary
Registered User

gary is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mt. Kuring-Gai
Posts: 5,081
May 15th 2019, Science :-

"Peacock spiders’ superblack spots reflect just 0.5 percent of light"

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...t-light?tgt=nr
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 17-05-2019, 10:10 AM
OICURMT's Avatar
OICURMT
Oh, I See You Are Empty!

OICURMT is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Laramie, WY - United States of America
Posts: 1,418
So, is the conclusion that it does or does not flake and can be used potentially for flocking?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 17-05-2019, 10:41 AM
mental4astro's Avatar
mental4astro (Alexander)
kids+wife+scopes=happyman

mental4astro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: sydney, australia
Posts: 4,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by OICURMT View Post
So, is the conclusion that it does or does not flake and can be used potentially for flocking?
Dunno. There has not been enough astro testing done. There's a lot of variables that will need testing, and this will take time. If anyone has either Black 2.0 or 3.0, now's the time to start experimenting.

Wavy started out with some testing of the Black 2.0. He painted a board, one half with cheap poster paint and the other half with 2.0 and let the board get wet with dew. The poster paint was not water fast and smeared of when you dragged your finger over it. The 2.0 held fast and did not come of on one's finger. This is good to know for Newts and other open tube OTA's.

Test No. 1 for Black 2.0 - tick

Test No. 2 will be gauging adhesion quality to a previously painted OTA interior.

Same testing needs to be done for Black 3.0 as it is a different formulation. The results for 2.0 are only for 2.0, and cannot be assumed that 3.0 will behave the same way.

This is where those cheap little scopes kicking around in the back of one's shed is KING for this sort of experimentation!

Alex.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 17-05-2019, 04:31 PM
LewisM's Avatar
LewisM
Novichok test rabbit

LewisM is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in the cosmos...
Posts: 8,896
I have applied 2.0 over interior surfaces of many adaptors. No issues at all . Been there for a year so far.

I find it works best over an undercoat like most paints. If I use Matt black paint undercoat then 2.0 the result is invisible black with nil reflection.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 17-05-2019, 07:32 PM
Wavytone (Nick)
BigBanger

Wavytone is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Killara, Sydney
Posts: 3,697
Lewis a sample of 3.0 is on its way and I still have the bottle of 2.0. Will paint a representative sample with both side-by-side and photograph under various light conditions. No photoshopping straight out-of-camera.

Personally.. 2.0 was OK but the "blackness" was nothing special IMHO, just very very thick goo.

I'm also trying to source some rouge (the mirror polishing variety) to see how that fares dusted on top while the paints are wet. I have a feeling that will better the bare paints. Another possibility is very fine silicone carbide, as in the abrasive.

Last edited by Wavytone; 17-05-2019 at 07:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 01:35 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
OzScopes Authorised Dealer
Advertisement
Meade Australia
Advertisement
Nitecore
Advertisement
Lunatico Astronomical
Advertisement
SkyWatcher Australia
Advertisement
NexDome Observatories
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
Astronomy and Electronics Centre
Advertisement