Ethos 21 vs 17 for 12inch f/10

[Nightingale]

So i just tested a masuyama 32mm 85 deg in my Meade 12 inch f/10.. I must say that this is a good eyepiece when it comes to contrast. For more than 72 (roughly) degrees field, I would have to position my head slightly and it feels as though I am sneaking under the barrel to get the whole field.. Are these how all wide angle eyepieces built? I always thought of a wide angle eyepiece of just having to move my eyeball rather than my head to observe the outer field? I wonder if the ethos series are the same?
And also, if you already have a low power wide angle eyepiece (in my case a 32mm masuyama), which ethos would you go for? A 17mm or a 21mm? mind you, DSOs are still my main target but I need more magnification..
And also, will the stellarvue optimus or the 100degree Lunt/APM stack up to the Televue ethos’s contrast?
Thoughts would be appreciated..

[Startrek (Martin)]

I only have and use Televue eye pieces ( Panoptic , Delos and Ethos ) and in saying that, the view of M42 Orion and Eta Carinae using my 21mm ethos with an Astronomik UHC filter in my Skywatcher 12” Goto dob is absolutely mind blowing , a sight to behold
I started building my Televue collection nearly 4 years ago , sold off all of my Delites ( but focused on the Panoptic, Delos and Ethos range )
I don’t have the Ethos 17mm but do have the 13mm which is a superb eye piece
Hopefully others can comment on some comparative views on other high end brands
Cheers

[Startrek (Martin)]

Answering your question about viewing through the Ethos eye pieces , I find them extremely comfortable with 15mm of eye relief and a huge 100 degree AFOV
I use an adjustable bar stool which has a foot rest ring you use to raise or lower the seat height ( bought it from office works for $50 )
My head usually remains steady and just use my eye ball to observe the whole FOV to edge of field
I wear glasses and can choose to view with or without glasses. However my left eye does not have astigmatism like the right eye ( only myopia ) so I choose to view without glasses with my left eye and bring the object into focus
I do use a Televue Paracorr type 2 coma corrector which provide tack sharp stars to edge of field , another superb Televue accessory
Cheers

[Wilso]

Not everyone is able to see the full field of view in these ultra wide eyepieces without moving. I am one, so I stick to 85deg eyepieces and below. Everyone has there own preferred field of view eyepieces so we all buy and sell to find the ones which suit our own viewing requirements.
I’ve moved a few on over the years, not because they’re bad eyepieces just because they didn’t suit me. Try before you buy if possible.

Hope this helps!

[ab1963 (Andrew)]

The 21 Ethos is king in any language (scope) at that FL and FOV, The Nikon Nav HW 17 is the same in the 17mm FL and FOV even though I only gravitate to refractors have used them in a 10 inch dob and views were amazing.....

[Nightingale]

Hmm.. has anyone had any experience with the lunt/APM HDC 20mm 100 deg? Seems to get better reviews than the ethos on stargazerlounge.. It would cost half the price of the ethos including shipping
https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/2...lunt-20mm-hdc/

[ab1963 (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by Nightingale

Hmm.. has anyone had any experience with the lunt/APM HDC 20mm 100 deg? Seems to get better reviews than the ethos on stargazerlounge.. It would cost half the price of the ethos including shipping
https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/2...lunt-20mm-hdc/

I had the 20mm ES100 Deg and the light throughput between it and the Ethos was easily noticeable to me that's why it's double the price, The reason why certain eyepieces are horrendously priced is that they are the best and noticeably so the question you have to ask yourself is black and white can you make do or do you want as good as it gets neither option is wrong you just have to choose

[Nightingale]

Andrew, I do care about the views and i will gladly pay for it too... but i would feel ripped off if i bought an eyepiece that was double the price for the same or less of an image contrast or quality just purely based on the brand.. you have to remember that the ethos was created and was in production more than a decade ago.. I am sure there are other younger budding enthusiastic opticians besides Al Nagler who are also capable of producing quality optics.. if you read the entire 5 page thread on the stargazerlounge site, you would realize that the APM HDC is equal or even superior to the ethos in terms of visual quality.. and yes, they have also stated that the explore scientifics do not come close to either... So your direct comparison between the es and ethos seems correct.. but want about the lunt/APM vs Ethos? Has anyone tried this down under? Say on the tarantula? Eight burst? Eta carina?

[byronpaul (Paul)]

Hi,

I have not looked through a Lunt/APM so I can’t comment on them, nor have I looked through a Masuyama. I did try many other brands of eyepiece from Baader to Pentax before I got my first Televue and the difference was very notable, particularly from the lower end examples. Whilst I still have a few other brands in my collection, I pretty much only use Ethos and Naglers now.

I do have a ES 9mm 100deg, and I’ve only got that as I’ve yet to purchase the 8mm Ethos. I have a friend with the 8mm Ethos and the comparison in my eyes against the 9mm ES is significant. As others have mentioned early, the resulting light which hits the eye through the Televue is significant different to the ES. The contrast and brightness from the ES isn’t up to the Ethos.

Do you have an app such as CCDCalc (PC), Stellarium (PC), Astro Aid (IOS) which you can simulate the resulting views with your scope and the available Eyepieces you are looking at. Given your focal length is likely to be 3000mm, aside from FOV you would also need to consider what magnificent you want. A 21mm will give you 143x and a 17mm 176x. Whilst also considering the AFOV needed to get a decent target in, magnification is also important.
My SDM focal length of 2350, the viewing sweet spot is 13mm Ethos (181x @ 0.55d AFOV) and 21mm Ethos (112x @ 0.89d AFOV). For something like Orion or Tarantula it’s the 31mm Nagler (76x @ 1.08d AFOV) if I want to take in all the outer nebulosity.

When I first started in astronomy about 10~15 years ago, I was swapping eyepieces all night and going for higher magnificent. These days I do about 80% of my viewing with the 13mm Ethos, and going for less magnification.

With the head vs eye moving – yes the wider resulting views can sometimes introduce both, which I personally LOVE. Sometime I literally need to hold onto my step ladder or sit as you do get that sensation or falling into the eyepiece, it literally sucks you in. I can spend 15+ minutes on Orion just exploring all that is to offer and I never get tired of going back to targets like this whenever I can. Whilst the inner 90% doesn’t require any movement, the outer 10% can if you want to take it all in. This also depends on whether you are an eyecup up or down viewer. If at a dark site I’m 100% eyecup down so I can get all that is to offer.

From my perspective, you pay a premium for Televue, but you get what you pay for. They are an investment but you are likely to keep them for a long time. You'll likely sell or change your scope but keep your Eyepieces and Televue retain their value well, particularly if you can pick up some at a good price in the IIS classifieds.

Good luck with you decision.

Paul

[Camelopardalis (Dunk)]

I used to own an Ethos 17mm and with my Edge HD 11" the views were fantastic! Very versatile eyepiece, could be used for relatively-low magnification planetary and lunar but also sits in the exit pupil sweet spot for DSO. I only sold it because I defected to the Dark Side (imaging).

[gregbradley]

I had an Ethos 13mm. Views though a TEC180 were great. I have had several Naglers and Panoptics, Radians.

Definitely a top eyepiece but very large, heavy and expensive.

I don't think it would suit a small refractor as 13mm is a bit too wide for say 630mm focal length but good at 1260mm.

So make sure you are willing to handle the size and weight. The Lunt/APM eyepeices appear to also be large and heavy but not expensive.

Greg.

[wayne anderson (Wayne)]

I use a 17mm Ethos with my f/10 12inch Meade LX200, the views and contrast are spectacular, i especially like to use the 17mm Ethos with the autostar spiral search mode by pressing the goto a second time after it center's an object such as Eta Carinae or M42, the spiral search mode makes it feel like you are drifting automatically around the nebula.

I have noticed with the 17mm Ethos and the f/10 12inch Meade LX200 the seeing needs to be very good as the slightest haze in the atmosphere at this magnification is very noticeable, I have not yet tried the 21mm Ethos in my LX200 but i would like to know how it compares to the 17mm Ethos.

The eyepiece i use the most is 26mm Nagler as the contrast, field of view and magnification works extremely well for 90% of the deep space objects viewed.

[sharpiel]

No one has mentioned the Takahashi eyepieces. Can anyone compare through experience to Televue? Sorry if this is a highjack...

[Startrek (Martin)]

As mentioned before my 21mm Ethos with UHC filter and Paracorr type 2 is my supreme eye piece for Nebula in the Skywatcher 12” f5 Goto dob
Coming in a close second would be my 27mm Panoptic and next would be my 17.3mm Delos
I was hoping the Televue Commemorative Apollo 11 eye piece I ordered a month ago would have arrived prior to Christmas but it’s still under QA inspection at Televue. Latest date is now mid January
Patience is a virtue.......

[Nightingale]

Les - the takahashi’s come in very short f/l for their wide angles so would not be great for DSOs

Wayne - thanks for your insight into the 17mm ethos in yr 12inc SCT... goes to show you would have to have pristine skies to use shorter focal lengths.. I’ve realised through the years that short f/l eyepieces are better suited for refractors.. so I’d probably stick to 20mm or more for the expensive wide angles and resort to cheaper eyepieces for anything less than 20mm (as we will not be using them much).. having said that I still think I have a bit of collimation error in my scope and working to improve it before mars, Jupiter and Saturn gets back on the scene...

Greg - you’re right.. I did’t get the Nagler 31mm due to its weight and also cost.. and I knew that at f10 with my scope, it should be able to somewhat handle edge issues so I settled for the 32mm masuyama instead - it was great that a fellow IIS member put his up for sale.. must have read my mind as I was researching the masuyama the day before he placed the ad..

Paul- no I do not have any of those apps.. the only app I have is sky safari pro and it works magic with the Meade Stella... I might try those apps.. I started off with astronomy when I was 13.. that was 25 years ago! So you can now figure my age . I forced my parents to get me a Meade 4500 (a 4.5 inch Newtonian).. it was on an equatorial mount but the drive was rubbish.. it came with a kellner eyepiece and so again I forced my parents to get me a better eyepiece.. this time a vixen Plossl 17mm (silver casing)... I thought it was the best eyepiece ever! I think it cost around 130USD back then (was living in south east Asia then)... never really wanted to burden my parents after that.. I think they thought I had a very weird interest.. and didn’t want them to classify me as an absolute weirdo.. I have come a long way since and have settled for a Meade 12inch lx90.. just the right price, weight and suited for my visual needs.. anything bigger would have broken my back.. and anything more complex would have torn my wallet.. I must say, despite all the negative comments about the 12inch lx90 being under-mounted, I have not had any issues with tracking or shakes..
I am happy with my current eyepiece line up but I really want to see what a 100 deg eyepiece looks like.. though TV eyepieces are great, I think they are just overpriced.. when you have a 2 inch Televue barrel extender selling for 49AUD, something must be really wrong.. I am convinced that I will be paying for a brand and not the optics, though the optics/coatings may be good, I do not believe there aren’t others that would rival them..

So I have decided, I will be ordering the 20mm APM hdc 100deg as a Xmas gift to myself! Hurray!

[Nightingale]

Martin - your Apollo 11 is going to be a great investment.. as to whether it’s going to give you great views, is yet to be determined.. I assume they would do well in refractors but I am a little sceptical with their performance in your large newtonian.. please report back..

[dreamstation (James)]

Originally Posted by Startrek

As mentioned before my 21mm Ethos with UHC filter and Paracorr type 2 is my supreme eye piece for Nebula in the Skywatcher 12” f5 Goto dob

Do you find all that weight on the focuser plays havoc with your tracking/viewing? I know using both the paracorr and large televue eyepieces like the 21 ethos or 31 nagler in my 10" non-goto dob is hard work. The locking mechanism doesn't work too well if you're looking at anything not directly above you and I believe that there has to be some flexing in the optical chain with all that weight hanging off the focuser.

[Startrek (Martin)]

James,
No issue with flexure in the Paracorr and 21mm Ethos combo as I usually view above 35 degrees in Altitude
I just ensure all the thumbscrews are nice and tight along the image train
Cheers

[Nightingale]

Moment of sheer craziness... since I purchased the APM hdc 21mm for Xmas, now I needed to treat myself for the new year.. Martin, you can tell us how the Apollo 11 does in your 12inch f/5 and I’ll tell you how it performs in my 12inch f/10!... Yes I do still hate them for their pricing though...

[Startrek (Martin)]

As soon as the fire situation in NSW eases ( which could be another month ) and we get a few clear smoke free nights , I’ll try the Apollo 11 eye piece and give you a report