Go Back   IceInSpace > Beginners Start Here > Beginners Equipment Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 06-04-2020, 09:22 AM
jahnpahwa (JP)
Registered User

jahnpahwa is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Canberra, AUS
Posts: 593
The more I read, the more I want, the more I need to spend

Hi guys,
I know these questions come up a lot, and I've read a bunch of them, I promise! I have some specific questions about a first "real" telescope set-up that I'm on the brink of purchasing.
I'll try to keep my questions specific, but feel free to give general feedback too

The set up I'm thinking about is the "photo newt" package at andrewscom at hte moment, an 8" SW newt OTA, F5 I think, on an HEQ5 mount, and also a second hand eos 1100D or 550D. I had originally thought a non-goto 8" dob would be perfect, but as per the title, I keep reading and...

My thoughts with this set up are that I can get visual wows instantly with the kids (9 and 3, not long attention spans), while also preparing for the inevitability that I'll want to take some pics. As I've read more about gear and viewing experience I understand that viewing galaxies in particular, and nebulae to a lesser extent, is less mind blowing than I might have expected, so I'll want to generate images of them, I'm sure.

So, questions.

1) Am i giving up much (or any) visual power going with an 8" OTA on an EQ mount like this VS an 8" dob? I assume not, but want to make sure. I dont mind a bit of extra set up, my idea is that I'll get out at dusk, set up and then we can take a look before kids bedtime.

2) What is guiding? I assumed that once I got locked onto an object I could just start taking pics with the synscan goto system just keeping it all in view and it would all be good? In this respect, I also wonder if I can just use this mount purely as a push to sort of thing? If I'd like to set up in a jiffy to show the kids the moon, for eg, I can just make it all happen manually without any issue?

3) With the camera, I'm thinking I'll just start without trying to remove any filters, but the idea of pulling it apart does appeal. Is there anything else I'll (physically) need other than a T-ring adapter? I'm planning on a remote release, for sure.

Thanks so much!

(also, I'm forgetting a whole lot of stuff, so may come back and add and add and add!)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-04-2020, 10:36 AM
Startrek (Martin)
Registered User

Startrek is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Sydney and South Coast NSW
Posts: 5,990
Hi JP
Just some info on newts and mounts ......
I’ve been imaging with newts for 4 years , both a 6” f6 on a HEQ5 mount and an 8” f5 newt on a EQ6-R mount both using a Canon 600D
If you choose to do Astrophotography to an intermediate level with a newt 8” or larger and want to take long exposures ( 5 minute + ) with guiding , then I strongly recommend you choose a mount with bigger payload capacity like an EQ6-R
The HEQ5 is fine to use for visual observation with an 8” but will struggle with Astrophotography to an intermediate level. I’m not saying you can’t do it but it is going to struggle especially if there is a little bit of wind blowing during imaging
In Astrophotography the mount is of prime importance and good images rely on smooth tracking and good guiding from a strong robust mount, the remainder is up to the optics of your scope and of course the atmospheric conditions
A HEQ5 mount has a maximum payload rating ( visual ) of 13.5 kg. The recommended general rule of thumb for Astrophotography payload is 65% of the max rating of the mount.So the recommended maximum AP payload for the HEQ5 would be 8.7kg. An 8” f5 newt with DSLR imaging camera and coma corrector , dovetail bars, guide scope , guide camera , dew straps , cables , hardware , finder ( optional ) etc... would be around 14.5kg. So you would be putting a huge strain on the HEQ5 mount with 14.5kg on board. The next size up for Skywatcher mounts is the EQ6-R which has a maximum payload rating of 22kg ( recommended AP payload rating of 14kg ) So an 8” f5 newt with all AP gear will track and guide beautifully on the EQ6-R mount.Most sessions I’m guiding under an arc sec with that set up and take +5 minute exposures comfortably
My HEQ5 carry’s the 6” f6 newt quite well, but I would never even consider putting my 8” f5 on it.
Anyway others may have different opinions but I’m talking from personal experience over 3 years and imaging from Sydney Bortle 8 skies and my weekender south coast NSW under Bortle 3 skies

If budget is a problem then why not buy a 6” f5 or 6” f6 newt to put on a HEQ5, you will still get great images and you can still use it for visual as well with some quality eye pieces if you want to do both forms of the hobby

Best of luck and hope others chime in and offer some more advice

Cheers
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-04-2020, 10:49 AM
glend (Glen)
Registered User

glend is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lake Macquarie
Posts: 7,033
JP, the GSO 8" f5 Newt is a great all round scope, and is setup for imaging as delivered (some newts are not, as they are configured for visual only). To use the 8" f5 for imaging you just need a T-adaptor and bayonet fitting for your camera, and if you wish for pin point stars to the edges, a coma corrector.
If using the 8" ft visually you will need a 35mm extension tube, so that your eye pieces can achieve focus. Andrews may include that extension tube with that scope. Just confirm that with Luke.
Guiding is a pretty big subject. As you will be using a EQ mount, if it is precisely polar aligned then you can get away without guiding up to a point (that point being where drift starts to give the stars tails). Guiding uses, in your case, a small guide scope attached to the main scope, and that guide scope has a small camera on it. Using some software like PHD2, that little camera will track a guide star and give instructions to your mount (by a cable) to nudge it slightly to keep it precisely aimed at your imaging target. This allows very long exposures.
Now, if you can precisely align your mount, you can take images without guiding, as long as you keep your exposures short enough to avoid star tails, say 30 seconds.
In order to build signal data, you can stack many short exposures, to build the equivalent signal strength to a single longer guided type exposure. There are factors such as noise that come into play but for the purposes of simplicity here, that explains it enough turn you to get started.

I bet you don't know what Bortle is, as Martin uses it below, but don't stress about that. There is alot of jargon thrown around in astronomy, which is not easy or beginners to wade through.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-04-2020, 11:20 AM
jahnpahwa (JP)
Registered User

jahnpahwa is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Canberra, AUS
Posts: 593
Thank you, guys!
That's a great primer on guiding, and good to hear about the tighter weight constraints with astrophotography.
I'd love to say "stuff it, I'll just grab the EQ6R" but even for someone who tends to dive in and give myself a chance to love a hobby by getting good intro gear, that seems a lot! That said, I wonder if the kids would have great visual moments with a 6"...

I've (we've) had a LOT of time on my hands, so yeah, I've had a look at darkness maps and see that my Bortle is class 5 here in western ACT, but happy to see that I can access dark skies easily.

Ah, its the same old discussion/conundrum! Trade-offs everywhere I turn

I wonder if a suitable (thrifty) starting answer would be to keep the rig simple .... 8.75kg OTA, supplied finder scope (couple of hundred grams?), no guiding gear, 500g SLR and see how I go getting good polar alignment, stack 30-45sec exposures... Is this pie in the sky thinking?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-04-2020, 12:02 PM
glend (Glen)
Registered User

glend is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lake Macquarie
Posts: 7,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahnpahwa View Post
Thank you, guys!
That's a great primer on guiding, and good to hear about the tighter weight constraints with astrophotography.
I'd love to say "stuff it, I'll just grab the EQ6R" but even for someone who tends to dive in and give myself a chance to love a hobby by getting good intro gear, that seems a lot! That said, I wonder if the kids would have great visual moments with a 6"...

I've (we've) had a LOT of time on my hands, so yeah, I've had a look at darkness maps and see that my Bortle is class 5 here in western ACT, but happy to see that I can access dark skies easily.

Ah, its the same old discussion/conundrum! Trade-offs everywhere I turn

I wonder if a suitable (thrifty) starting answer would be to keep the rig simple .... 8.75kg OTA, supplied finder scope (couple of hundred grams?), no guiding gear, 500g SLR and see how I go getting good polar alignment, stack 30-45sec exposures... Is this pie in the sky thinking?
JP, not pie in the sky thinking at all. You can get great photos without guiding. Put the effort into getting good polar alignment, it is always a skill that comes in handy. You may find reading up on "Drift Alignment" could be useful. When you get to the point of taking exposures, you can use simple Interval Metres that plug into your camera to space and time each exposure properly, or use software like Backyard EOS (For Canons), or Backyard Nikon, which run on laptops and allow you to plan a whole evening of shooting.
Once you have those exposures, you will need to stack them to build signal, so do some reading about Deep Sky Stacked ( aka DSS), which is another laptop app that will stack and align your exposures. There are other more complicated tools but most folks start out with the ones mentioned.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-04-2020, 01:00 PM
doppler's Avatar
doppler (Rick)
Registered User

doppler is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Mackay
Posts: 1,656
Don't under estimate the HEQ5 pro mount, it punches well above its weight. With a bit of perseverance you can get good results with this mount and an 8" newt on top. You will need to get a short step ladder with hand rail on top, as the eyepiece can get to awkward places on an eq mount. The HEQ5 pro mount is the minimum size mount to get if your thinking about a bit of astrophotography. My scope is a dob, but I have added tube rings so I can also mount it on my HEQ5 for astophotography, so the best of both worlds.

Rick
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-04-2020, 01:22 PM
jahnpahwa (JP)
Registered User

jahnpahwa is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Canberra, AUS
Posts: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by doppler View Post
Don't under estimate the HEQ5 pro mount, it punches well above its weight. With a bit of perseverance you can get good results with this mount and an 8" newt on top. You will need to get a short step ladder with hand rail on top, as the eyepiece can get to awkward places on an eq mount. The HEQ5 pro mount is the minimum size mount to get if your thinking about a bit of astrophotography. My scope is a dob, but I have added tube rings so I can also mount it on my HEQ5 for astophotography, so the best of both worlds.

Rick
Thats really good to know, thanks Rick. From your signature here, are you mounting your 250mm dob with tube rings on the HEQ5pro for photography? If so, thats really a great endorsement!

Glen, thanks again for your info, it (thankfully) sounds as though there are options to start out that are fairly straight forward
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-04-2020, 02:27 PM
Startrek (Martin)
Registered User

Startrek is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Sydney and South Coast NSW
Posts: 5,990
JP
Some more information.....
A great feature of the Skywatcher mounts including the HEQ5 and EQ6-R is that they have a Synscan handcontroller which has an extremely good polar alignment routine which doesn’t require line of sight to the south celestial pole
All you need to do is level the tripod, align the tripod facing true south , set home position on the mount , balance your rig , pick 2 alignment stars ( one being your Polar Alignment Star ) and start the routine. You can use an illuminated centering eye piece or use a laptop with software like BYEOS which is designed specifically for DSLR’s
After some practice you will be polar aligned close to or under 1 arc minute in 10 minutes.Ive used this method to polar align since I started the hobby, the more you do it the better you get at it.I must say from experience the EQ6-R mount is certainly easier and quicker to polar align than the HEQ5
Another great feature of Skywatcher mounts namely the HEQ5 and EQ6-R is they are compatible to a program called EQMOD which replaces the Synscan handcontroller for remote control of the mount vis a planetarium.Extremely accurate and user friendly
I have easy to read procedures on the following for both HEQ5 and EQ6-R mounts
1/ Finding true south (permanent line on the ground for future use )
2/ Setting your tripod to face true south
3/ Setting home position on your mount
4/ Balancing your mount
5/ Synscan polar alignment routine
6/ Setting up EQMOD , StellariumScope and Stellarium for remote control of your Skywatcher mount from a laptop near the mount
7/ collimation via some good websites

NB: Just to advise you that there are many different procedures and software programs to assist in polar alignment, I’ve just mentioned the Synscan handcontroller method as it comes with your mount when you buy it and all you need initially is a centering eye piece. Later you can perform the procedure via a laptop with more accuracy.

To answer your question whether a 6” f5 or f6 scope is satisfactory for visual observing, the answer is most definitely yes. With the right eye pieces and good seeing conditions you can observe most objects in the night sky with good detail

Hope this information is helpful

Martin
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-04-2020, 07:34 PM
doppler's Avatar
doppler (Rick)
Registered User

doppler is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Mackay
Posts: 1,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahnpahwa View Post
Thats really good to know, thanks Rick. From your signature here, are you mounting your 250mm dob with tube rings on the HEQ5pro for photography? If so, thats really a great endorsement!
Yes the 10" on my HEQ5, there are a few of us with shallow pockets that push their mounts to the limits and beyond. My mount seems to track better with a decent load on it, but I do have it on a pier so I'm not worried about it becoming unstable and tipping over.

My daughter wanted to get a few snaps of the Lunar occultation of Saturn 12/08/2019so we piggy backed a 4" f7 on top. Some might cringe at this load but the mount didn't miss a beat.

High end gear and software does make it easier but that does not mean it's impossible to get good results with basic equipment, you just need to perfect old school setup skills.
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (full load.jpg)
194.7 KB45 views
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-04-2020, 06:12 AM
jahnpahwa (JP)
Registered User

jahnpahwa is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Canberra, AUS
Posts: 593
Thanks again, Martin, all of that is really, really helpful.

Edit: Rick, thats such an impressive set up!! Your experience with thst mount is great to read.



A quick shout out too, to Luke at andrewscom, another very helpful person!

I will check back here with an update on which set up i end up with, and will hopefully have some images to share at some stage too.


JP

Last edited by jahnpahwa; 07-04-2020 at 07:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-04-2020, 11:14 AM
jahnpahwa (JP)
Registered User

jahnpahwa is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Canberra, AUS
Posts: 593
Thanks again team, advice here has been really helpful.

I've pulled the trigger on the SkyWatcher F5 8" newt, HEQ5pro (single mount), 17 Ah power pack, Canon t-ring, a 2x barlow, 15mm super plossl to go with the 23 supplied, moon filter, some books, a USB cable for the mount so i can use EQMOD and a vixen dovetail for my camera in case i end up with a lens that is useful.

I'm super duper psyched.

Last edited by jahnpahwa; 08-04-2020 at 11:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 18-04-2020, 11:15 AM
jahnpahwa (JP)
Registered User

jahnpahwa is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Canberra, AUS
Posts: 593
First night was hard but fun work with this set up!


Martin, do you have a link to those instructions on setting up the heq5pro? Overall, i think i did a decent job of alignment but my lack of knowledge of the sky made choosing alignment stars hard, and the stars i chose seemed not to be ideal (other than sirius). The scope sees so many stars that its currently hard for me to know if I'm choosing the right one to align to! I was so far off after slewing that i often couldn't find the star in my finder scope! I'll report back after tonights effort, hoping for a step forward


But thanks again for all input, I'm feeling good about having decent gear that i dont need to question... i know that the weak link is my knowledge and its motivating to lock it down
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 11:16 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement
Testar
Advertisement