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Old 07-11-2008, 10:07 AM
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Davekyn (David)
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Thumbs up 80ED Image Scope with Autoguiding & Guide Scope configuration?

The Orion Star Shoot seems to be getting a lot of attention. The review in “Australian Sky & Telescope” makes it sound worth getting for someone only beginning in astrophotography like myself.

It seems some people are talking about the cameras ability to take photos itself, however I think I would only be interesting in using it, for guiding only, as the results for a sole imaging camera does not sound crash hot, not to mention a lot of mucking around.

Questions.
Should I worry about the Star shooters inability to use faint stars or the signal to noise ratio.?

You see, I first came across the modified Toucam Pro, with lots of nice looking videos on Google...Impressed I rang up one store, & they went on to tell me how I could use it as an auto guider, however, they did mentioned that it may suffer on guide stars that don’t shine to brightly, or something to that effect.

Is the Orion Star Shooter, just a more compatible (and expensive) version of the modified Toucam Pro, but with the same limitations in regards to tracking fainter objects?

Forgive my lack of knowledge ect...If I don’t ask I don’t learn.

Just a few more questions:

I’ve got myself an 80ED & am about to embark on the purchase of an EQ6Pro mount. Is this mount compatible with the Orion Star Shooter?

Would I be best to buy another ED80 scope and use it in a Side by Side configuration, or could I get just as good result with auto guiding using a CHEAP achro as a guide scope. (I’ve read some are using a WO66ED) I am still at a loss as to the mounting configuration and type of guide scope to use alongside my ED80. I really want to get this right from the start & enjoy being able to relax a little without having to constantly look through the eye piece. What a buzz it would be to be able to observe with my other gear and image at the same time.

I know my next purchase is an easy one...EQ6Pro with room to grow...But I really need help with the rest. I have a New Laptop and Solar Battery set-up for the mount as well...I just can’t get me head around all the choices for auto guiding and guide scope in regards to using my ED80 as the primary imaging scope at this point and time.

Arrrrgggghhhhhh..........Please Help L & thank you for checking my post out.
Dave

Last edited by Davekyn; 08-11-2008 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:14 AM
TrevorW
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The Orion is a decicated CCD camera the camera portion is in fact very similar to the QHy5 but the drivers for the Orion will not allow video frames to be captured for stacking. It connnects to the EQ6 pro and yes you can use a 66 for a guidescope I've even toyed with the idea of modifying the focuser of my 60mm finder to act as a guidescope.

It's a decicated guider very simple to use. I've looked for drivers to use it as a video capture device without much success but as autoguiders go it's simple and works and can guide of fairly dim stars.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:47 AM
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Good to hear,
I'll only be using for guiding. In fact I look foward to standing back and not having to put up with the family complaining about objects moving out of FOV... I guess the EQ6pro will do that for me, but still, I wonder how long I could let an object be tracked dead on target with this auto guider?
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:01 PM
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An ST80/QHY5 for guiding is a popular, cheap, compact and light combo for guiding. Mine works very well. I mounted it on top of an ED80 (not side by side, all the adaptor plates can get heavy). The EQ6 pro would seem ideal too.

Once tracking is set up and going, it will stay locked until you hit the horison or meridian. Ive gone up to 6hrs unattended for objects near the southern pole.
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:06 PM
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I've tracked an object for a couple of hours with a QHY5 and EQ6 with no problems. Don't know about the Orion though - I'm assuming it would perform the same.
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:18 PM
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Yea,
so far those cameras seem about the same for performance from my readings. The ST80 sounds like the go...Thanks for the tip, I heard that elsewhere too, so it must be a good combo.

I take it, that the ST80 would present no problems in the way of flex? when mounted on an 80ED?

Also would the shorter focal length be an issue, as I have heard somthing about "it's best to match FL" with respect to the primary scope?

I take it you use a filter, or the one that comes with the guide scope camera to deal with chromatic abberation?

It's looking good and I am pretty much thinking your recommendation is the way to go...although I will probably get the Orion Star Shooter.
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:56 PM
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I think the starshooter is essentially the same as the QHY5, except is about $80 more expensive.

I found more flex in a side byside arrangement than on top. Flex at that FL wont be a problem anyway, and they are both refractors, ie heavy at the front end. Its when a refractor is used for guding on an SCT that it occurs more, an SCT is heavy at the back, so they sag differently.

FL of the guide scope used to be more important, but now adays guide software corrects to subpixel resolution. I guide an SCT at over 2m FL with the ST80 ,up to 20min exposures, with success, (although at 20mins its a struggle, 10mins is fine). With an ED80 its a no brainer, no problem there.

You dont need a filter for guiding in mono at all, chromatic abberation is irellavent for guiding.

The ST80 is just so cheap and light, its pretty much an unbeatable standard.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:23 PM
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Thanks Fred,
Hearing it like that, makes a lot more sense than what I have heard on the subject of flex.
I don't supose you know if I can run the auto guiding software along side

CCD software I might be using for imaging off the main scope all at the same time on the same laptop...ie...can I multitask both programs at the same time?

I'm also a little confused on what happens to the mounts goto fucntions after you setup up an autoguider-does the mount still run through any of its abiltities or is it all up to the auto guider, or do you kind of switch between the two, or just use them both along side eachother.

Sorry...can't help but wonder...guess I will find out when I purchase the equipment.

Thanks again...I am beginning to seee the light at the end of the tunnel.
cheers
Dave
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:34 PM
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yes, imaging software is run at the same time as a guiding program.

Some imaging programs have a guiding application that of course also run together.

Guiding does not affect other scope functions, but normally you goto an object , pick a guide star and then activate guiding.
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:00 PM
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I've used the ST80 to guide my C11 successfully @ F/10, so the focal length is definitely not an issue.. (as a matter of fact, I've seen a 12" F/10 SCT guided by a 200mm camera lens...)

If you mount the ST80 directly to the top of the ED80, do your best to line make sure that with the focuser extended to where the QHY5/Orion guider comes to focus, your ST80 is around center to the ED80. (with the focuser extended to where your camera comes to focus)

This will make balancing the two easier..

I could not think of a better setup to start imaging.. ED80, ST80, EQ6.. It sounds very workable to me
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:34 AM
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OK guys, thanks for all your input. Hugely appreciated!
If the focal length is not that critical, is it possible that I could use the following scope:
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm
Andrews MC150x1900 Maksutov-Cassegrain
And use the Mak to guide with? This setup seems more appealing to me in that I don’t have a scope with a long focal length and would like that option on hand. If going with something like this, could I use a FL reducer to even things up a little?

Thoughts anyone?
Dave
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:38 AM
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So that would be the mak for guiding and ED80 for imaging?. Sounds OK to me, but if then you imaged thru the mak and guided thru the ED80, I dont know how stable at 1900mm FL that would be on an EQ6, get a opinion from someone with a rig like that 1st methinks (although guiding in itself would be OK). Yes, a FR on the mak for imaging would certainly help.

Still recon as Alex says, that an ED80, ST80, EQ6 would be more suitable for starters.
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:07 AM
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imaging at long focal lengths with the EQ6 takes a fair bit of tenacity.. I have taken a few images at 1750mm (11" @ F/6.3) and one or two at 2800mm F/10. but it took some serious serious patience, only ever 2nd or 3rd sub was usable, I dont know if that was due to periodic error or wind wobbling the scope etc... Thats not to say that it can not be done... with smaller scopes that catch less wind and weigh less, it may be easier..

Guiding with a 1900mm focal length would be a right pain in the bum, as finding guide stars may not be the easiest task... The chip on guide cameras is alot smaller than most imaging cameras, I know that with my DBK31 + ST80, the field of view is nearly equal to my QHY8 + C11 @ F/6.3.. Its a fairly narrow field, especially when you need to land a mag 6~7 star in there for guiding... on the otherhand, if you were able to find a suitable guide star, I'd say the image would come out spot on.

For starters, short focal length is THE way to go... At first, I figured, 'yeah, everyone says short FL is the way to go for starters, but I'll figure it out with the long FL, then going to short will be easy..' I had nothing but frustration trying to start imaging at 1750mm.. I got an ST80 and guided my Megrez 102, first night with it all running properly, I produced images that I was very very proud of.. and have done a few times since..

Id say, ST80 + ED80 to start out, once you've got the whole setup under control, and imaging nicely.. then start thinking about narrow fields, consider whats the best narrow field scope for imaging (a 150mm F/12.6 is perhaps not a great imaging system, as its very slow and will require LONG exposures) Something like a 2nd hand C8 or 8" Meade, giving 2000mm @ F10, and the option of using the 6.3 reducer with 1260mm focal length, which will be double that of your ED80, giving you two very different perspectives for imaging, it wouldnt be to heavy, and with the ST80 as a guid scope, would be a great little setup for narrow fields...

All in time is the key... Get used to imaging the easiest way possible, as your confidence in your gear and skills grows, then consider the next step..

Alex.
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Old 08-11-2008, 01:22 PM
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Yea,
I was getting carried away again, wasn’t I J. Your absolutely right, I got home from an overnight shift and was not thinking straight. I’m sticking with the ED80 & ST80 config. That will be goal enough.

While on the topic Alex, may I ask your thoughts on the following scope. I won’t be getting it in the near future, but just wondered what you or others might think of it. I first saw it advertised in “Australia SKY & Telescope”

SAXON 8” (F/12.5) Maksutov-Cassegrain) $1398.00-I think that is the OTA price only.
Under "M20325EQ5" Click on Last Telescope at the bottom of the page.
http://www.saxon.com.au/m_schm.html

I know that the next scope I get will be for planetary & lunar Observing with the option to Advance my Astrophotography skills after using the recommended setup of the ED80&ST80. Keep in mind I will just be using my EQ6Pro and possibly just purchase a HEQ5 for the ED80 setup I was previously using.
Or whilst still learning with the beginner’s set-up should I just save for the more expensive 8”/9.5”CRT for advancing my skills down the track & including Planets & luner (somthing I am missing out on with the ED80)
Just trying to paint a picture that will give me some direction as to the best approach. So far it’s the ED80 & ST80, but it certainly does not hurt to look ahead.
Cheers
Dave
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:18 PM
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looking ahead is a good plan... again, the 8" F/12.5 mak is perhaps a bit slow for imaging with..

I dont know what focal reducers are available to speed these optical systems up, however its well known that the meade/celestron 8" SCT's are great performers, and with the meade/celestron reducer fitted, they are both F/6.3, which is fast enough for photography purposes...

Alternatively from an SCT, a 10" newtonian reflector is also a good option. There are quite a few forum members imaging very successfully with EQ6 pro + 10" Newt + 80mm guide scope... A rig like that is a fairly safe bet for moderate-long focal length imaging. and at F/5, its also a rather fast system.. A lot cheaper than an 8" SCT too...

2nd hand, C8's and Meade 8" SCT's come up a fair bit, and are usually priced between $750 ~ $1000 depending on accessories, condition, age etc.. and at that price range they are a fantastic bit of gear...

A brand new 10" newtonian would probably be around $500 +/- a bit..

There are plenty of options, I dont know much about mak cassegrain's, but schmidtt casses and newtonians are always a sure fire system.. Many people use them, they have fantastic track records for producing results..

If you were looking for a maksutov, I would direct you towards the Intes Micro scopes, or, the Orion 190mm F/5.3 Maksutov Newtonan.

Theres countless options really..
You need to first decide what it is you want your long focus scope mostly for.. DSO imaging/planetary imaging, observing etc..

A 10" newtonian will excell for planetary imaging over an 8" SCT/MCT because it has the aperture advantage. Apeture is everything for planetary imaging.. for observing mounted on the gem, it could be a bit of a pain, as the eyepiece can be in some pretty crazy locations depending where the scope is pointed.. for DSO's the 10" has 2 upsides, its fast @ F/5, and it has aperture. 10" of light gathering area at F/5 makes it a very useful tool. Downsides are its big, moderately heavy, and on the upper weight limit of the mount when coupled with a guide scope, cameras/ cables etc etc.. Newts suffer from coma, however this is easily fixed with a ba'ader MPCC corrector.

An 8" SCT is very versatile for all aspects, for planetary imaging, it has enough aperture to capture good detail and feed your camera plenty of light, at F/10 it has a fairly long focal length for planetary this is good. For observing, it has enough aperture to show off good detail for a lot of dso's and plenty of focal length for viewing the planets. and, no matter where its pointed, the eyepiece is always in a fairly convenient location. For DSO imaging, you can image at F/10, this will require longer exposures, however you will have a very long focal lenght to capture the smaller objects in the sky, then, insert the 6.3 focal reducer, and you're back down to ~1200mm, a great focal length for imaging some of the more sizeable objects, and with a faster ratio of 6.3, you're exposures will be of a managable duration... The SCT design also has the downside of coma, unless you buy a new Meade ACF (advanced coma free) OTA (Pricey at the moment due to the AUD's value against the greenback) The reducer does handle this issue well though.

I dont know much about the Mak's, Nor do you see many people using them for imaging yet, however the Orion 7.5" mak newt does have a good set of specifications, however for planetary imaging/observing, 7" is starting to cut things a bit fine.. at F/5.3, for deep sky it would be nice, although a bit short to call it "long focal length" at 1000mm. Orion claim the mak newt does not suffer from this, however thats just marketing talk, and until I see results from the unit, I cant speak to this.

Theres MANY MANY decisions to make in the future... How did I choose? I first decided what I wanted to use the scopes primarily for, Then, I looked at images taken by many of my favorite astro photographers, and modeled my own rig based on theirs...

Best of luck with your decisions, And its good to hear you're sticking with the ED80 + ST80 as a starting setup. You'll have plenty of fun, and learn heaps!

Cheers
Alex.


An 8" SCT will be very versatile, for obse
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